Battleship02

37 minutes ago, mr walker said:

I don't consider it to be so absolutely important of who may have been #0 or #1, depending on the convention chosen, on Ruby Princess.

 

The problem is the systemic & individual failures that followed the initial spread that have become apparent during the inquiry.

 

Disasters are most often the result of a series of mistakes/errors/failures & this will likely become a casebook study.

For the police investigation it would be vital. If they want to suggest that Ruby Princess was aware of the virus and was covering it up then they will need to prove that with hard facts and evidence. Therefore it would become an integral and any defence lawyer would be onto it also. The police commissioner has already laid the ground work by implicating a crew member. If it can be proven that it was not then it would demonstrate to the courts what an incredible lack of judgement he demonstrated my making that statement.

When you speak of individual failures the level of neglect the police will have to prove for criminal negligence is quite high. We must remember here that in March little was still known about the virus and for a cruise ship operating as far away from the epicentre as possible with a Doctor looking after up to and over 3,000 people, I dare say she would have little time to be following the news and would have had only the medical information to go off sent to her by relevant worldwide health authorities and in the case of Princess the CDC which is US based. It would be fair to say that based on her workload and working knowledge of the virus at the time that the degree of her failure to identify and recognise it does not meet the level required to be considered criminally negligent.

On the other hand the bar would be much lower for NSW Health being a government department and knowing there was a risk of the virus from incoming passengers. At the time of the outbreak there was no travel ban in Australia on people from USA and UK but I believe there was from northern Italy and the blanket ban on from or through mainland china.

The way the police commissioner has maligned the Ruby Princess and the crew in the media will build a very strong case for malicious prosecution should he dare proceed with the case. That is why I do not think it will happen. He clearly lacks the intellect for his position and is undeserving of that salary he is getting in my opinion.

I am not going to be as extreme and hard on him or the police as others have on here but looking at it rationally and objectively I cannot see how he could proceed with any criminal charges. I know they are desperate to lay them based on the unprecedented scale of the investigation underway but in my opinion it will prove futile and an incredible waste of money which would be better spent on giving nurses a pay rise.

Sometimes bad things happen. I do not think appropriating blame or defaming a cruise line or maligning their respectable crew is helpful.

2 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

No, but that just illustrated two things:

1. The police commissioner hasn't got a clue how crise ships operate so he lost credibility there.

2. It showed he had already decided who was to blame so that any investigation is a travesty, and he lost more credibility there.

As I have said in other areas I do not believe criminal charges will ever be laid. I think he is just making these silly comments thinking the public appreciate them and need something to blame for the terrible situation. It is sad but that is what some people do. The reason I do not think there will be criminal charges as you have just said within my quotations and others have said the man has no credibility and has already tainted the investigation. With his perceived bias on public display with allegations that can be easily refuted by the general public any trial would be easy winnings for a skilled defence team. Not only that a highly resected barrister holding the commission of inquiry is likely to present a truthful and unbiased and honest report. It is unlikely the police would deviate from the status quo set by the final report by the special commission of inquiry. I note the police investigation is due to wrap up after the commission of inquiry and that being the case it will likely just be quietly shelved and go away.

4 hours ago, Kiwi Kruzer said:

Thanks for the shot of the streamers...

brings back memories.

 

Yes streamers are a thing of the past now.

I am still scanning the slides on a daily basis and have some from Milford Sound back in December 1979. Of course larger ships enter there now.

4 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

The difference between a cruise ship and any land-based shopping centre, stadium, theatre, church, school, university, is that illnesses can be tracked and counted in the closed environment of a cruise ship. Statistics have shown that cruise ship transmission of illnesses like norovirus is around half of that in the general community ie less than 2% against 3% or more. Of course, coronavirus is more virulent than norovirus so those numbers would be considerably higher - as we can see from other countries.

I have had norovirus before. I have caught it more times on land and probably from my local Woolworths than on a cruise ship. I am certain one time I caught it was in Woolworths was because the only place I was going that week was between my home and the shops.

6 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

You and I both love cruising... but when things go wrong, they really go wrong.  With everyone living in close proximity, for days on end, it only takes a small number of infected people to infect the whole ship.

 

The difference between a football crowd and a cruise ship, is that the footy crowd are only together for 2-3 hours, and most of the time you're only in "close contact" with those sitting around you.  In contrast, passengers are on a cruise ship for days or weeks (sometimes months), and are in close contact with people wherever they go.  You're in close contact with one set of people at dinner, another at the theatre, another in the pool, another doing trivia.  The scope for infection is far, far, higher on a cruise ship - even if the total number of people present is lower.

 

I love cruising.  It's a great way to have a relaxing holiday.  But it's not a necessity.  There are other ways to have a relaxing holiday, without getting on a great white petri dish.  Cruising is not, nor will it ever be, an "Essential" activity.

Its a tough call you know. As you know from cruise ships you can see one person one day and never see them again for the rest of the cruise or keep bumping into the same people on a daily basis. It is so random and with the amount of cleaning that goes on the risks are low.

One example I can think of is that I have been on some cruise ships for up to or longer than a month at any one time and have never got sick once. I can only think of three cruises off hand right now that I did actually get sick on. Namely once with coronavirus and the others bronchitis.

To put that in perspective I also went to a Bruce Springsteen live concert once held outdoors and got the worst cough and flu for the following two weeks.

You just don't know how things are going to go don't you?

What I would like to add here is that from reading medical experts can trace the virus to its place of origin by looking at the genetic sequence and its mutations. While I am not suggesting doing that to lay blame at some poor unsuspecting passenger, but if we do have samples of the virus from the Ruby Princess that can be analysed and traced to a geographic cluster then it may lay some rumours to rest about it being a crew member such as a chef which we all know to be nonsense. The criminal investigation that I have no faith in will probably hold off doing anything until the Special Commission of Inquiry has run its course. Some where in the world there would be the ability to trace the origin of the virus on Ruby Princess to. If that were done and debunked the crew theory and traced it to passengers then it would reduce the liability Princess faces and the crew faces. As I see it they are victims in this like everyone else. My guess is that the ships Doctor was caught by surprise by this as the infections at the time were not above average for your regular cruise. I have done world cruises before and know from experience that there are often influenza or bronchitis outbreaks on cruises. It is not uncommon and being away from the epicentre of the new virus the ship would have been none the wiser given past experience.

22 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Personally I'd rather see the cruise ship crews here than US troops or NRL players.

Cruise ship crews are probably more healthy and better educated in personal hygiene than NRL players. It would also do wonders for our economy if the government were to allow them in and have the company pay for a resort in our country to quarantine them in for three weeks just to make doubly sure. Its a win-win situation for all with the jobs to support the quarantine and income from it.

10 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

Cruise Ships are big white virus incubators, which are a luxury and not a necessity

I think that is a bit of speculation and overstating the mark. I do not believe cruise ships are virus incubators as the media would have you believe. If everyone is healthy who boards them then no viruses would be on them. A football field is a bigger place to incubate viruses and even the stadium with all the crowds. I could argue that travel is a necessity. It provides mental stimulation and emotional support to some people in more and better ways than therapy and medication will provide. It destresses people and builds up their mood and improves their way of life. If anything international travel and cruise ship travel has its health benefits physically, mentally and intellectually. For some people a trip on a cruise ship could do more help than six months of anti-depressant medication. For the person stressed out at work a holiday is just the thing you need to brighten your mood. I think cruise ships do more benefits to society and I do not consider them a luxury if the life we lead can use them to our benefit.

2 minutes ago, Vader1111 said:

Crew won't be allowed into the country, for starters.

The government let NRL players from New Zealand in. I cannot see why a cruise ship crew would not be permitted if they followed the same or better conditions that the NRL proposed when they requested the New Zealand team be allowed to enter Australia.

I wonder if the citizens could mount a constitutional challenge to our closed borders? For example the Federal Government has set a precedent here by allowing a New Zealand NRL team into Australia to restart a sporting competition. Supposing responsible Australian citizens who wanted to visit friends and family overseas or travel to a safe country where it is permittable by law and they are not having a lock down, would a responsible citizen who could fund their own quarantine on return and meet all costs be able to do this? Australia has set a poor example by allowing the NRL to restart and international teams enter Australia. They cannot have rules for some and rules for others. This is going to put pressure on business leaders to lobby the government for the same fair and equal treatment for their business interests considering the government has permitted the NRL to return. I am sure cruise lines and airlines would have taken notice of this unusual exemption and would be pushing legally for some sort of exemption for safe and responsible travel.

I will predict a window of opportunity in October for Australia and New Zealand if the governments get their act together and allow travel.

I have a few more on colour positive slides I have scanned but have not edited out imperfections and scratches and fingerprints.

P&O ships like the Himalaya and Orcades with the corn coloured hull. Iberia is in there as well.

The first ship was Russian and that link above is very informative about it. The Australian government once banned it from our waters over an incident involving a transfer at sea with a Russian Submarine! So if you feel sad that cruising may not happen for a while, don't worry the government has banned ships before but they did come back eventually.

Thanks for the comments. Out of the liners I have Titanic and Lusitania. It used to be a hobby for very rare free time but ever since the lock down and restrictions I have been spending time at home doing it to stay safe and healthy and replenish the cruise budget for the next holiday.

6 hours ago, GEcruzer said:

So true, the popular media seemed hell bent on crucifying the Ruby Princess. In unprecedented modern times mistakes are made and hindsight is a luxurious window to look through.


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Yes I have never seen so much hatred directed at the cruise industry in general from the mass media. What were they suggesting we do? I cannot fathom that they would seriously think it would be appropriate to send a ship infected back to sea full of at risk Australians. That is no way to look after your own citizens.

2 hours ago, ghstudio said:

I think it's pretty clear that Princess is delaying cash refunds....most likely until they start sailing again.  Not sure what the accounting reason is...but the delay is almost surely a financial decision rather than any processing delay.  At some point, perhaps they will start to trickle out payments or try another "we love you but it's just so people intensive that it's slow...we're so sorry for the delay" letter.

 

I'm not sure that we can actually do anything proactively to get a refund quicker....we can moan and groan here, but that's not doing much to date.

 

We're just waiting, assuming that eventually the $'s will be refunded... but all of us could, of course, be caught in a bankruptcy....but really can't' do much to avoid that.  We were fully paid (post final payment) for a 28 day cruise in April .

Maybe the people who process them have been stood down and have to stay home as per government orders on social gatherings and workplaces in some countries.

I also live in NSW Australia and have been watching the live streaming of the unrelated Special Commission of Inquiry with interest. All I will say on the matter is that I believe the police investigation to be "corrupt" I do not think criminal charges against anyone can be successfully prosecuted as the NSW police commissioner has already handed any defence team the victory on a silver platter. I do not know if he did it intentionally knowing that charges could never be laid or if he is serious. On the other hand the special commission of inquiry being run by one of the states top lawyers appears to be above board and full of integrity and professionalism. If I were a passenger on the cruise I would be avoiding the police investigation as much as legally possible and cooperating with the Special Commission of Inquiry. I really cannot see how any criminal charges can be laid now even if someone did act criminally, the police commissioner has already seen to it with his comments in the news. What he did was unprecedented to say the least. Its the kind of gold that defence lawyers just love as it wins them their case with ease.

Just wondering how others have been occupying themselves during the cruise drought? With people staying at home and the likes I have gone back to modelling a few ships.

I will add some photos but I am undertaking a task of constructing the WWII Battleship HMS Prince of Wales in 1/350 scale in super detail with wooden decks and brass etched parts. It is quite a job and quite time consuming that requires a lot of patience. The painting is one job that is hard to replicate given the ship had a five colour disruptive pattern at the time of its sinking as part of Force Z. I have managed to acquire the only known exact match to Royal Navy paints used in WWII recreated exactly according to mixing instructions.

I have previously modelled a few ships in the past and enjoy it as a hobby. I only do them in 1/350 scale. Past models included Titanic and HMS Repulse as well as a few other ones that have had significance with my interests in life and Naval history.

I had a cruise booked for April and it was cancelled early on. I was supposed to be going on the Diamond Princess. I got a refund to my credit card for the full fare amount. However I have not received a few hundred dollars worth of tax refunds that I was told was coming by cheque. The cruise was cancelled in February and I got my refund after 3 weeks. I did not have to ring up and ask.

I have just been reading some of this and want to throw my opinion in. I agree with some that the police investigation appears "corrupt" However with my limited experience with the law I do not believe any criminal charges or prosecution will ever be successful. With all the commissioner has done with his personal involvement is hand defence lawyers a victory on a silver platter should it get to court and not be thrown out if charges against the company and people are laid. I think the police commissioner has shamed himself in the news and displayed his true intention and made some terrible errors of judgement that expose and extreme and unjustified bias. Perhaps he is just trying to give the people of NSW a symbol to blame for the virus situation but in the end all he is doing is creating distrust and eroding the confidence of the police force particularly among those of us who know even a little about cruising.

As a fan of Princess and cruising in general I have been watching it closely. I am not a fan of the guardian and do not even read their articles anymore after seeing too much hype and nonsense. I did however find an interesting article on the ABC about it. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-12/ruby-princess-coronavirus-nsw-inquiry-hears-of-shortcommings/12235396 For the record I think there were mistakes and unpreparedness all around. Nothing malicious or intentional but just mistakes and adapting to this new situation.

Just starting off on this site. I have been going over some old family colour positive slides that were the ones you used to play on a projector. Here is an old ship that used to come to Australia and Asia for cruises. Does anyone remember it and the line. In this time of shut down there is nothing else to do but reminisce on the past and go over what cruising was like prior to all of this.