titong

No problems with Noro on that cruise.....but curiously enough, few months down the line, that same ship had THREE NOROVIRUS incidences. Doesn't that make you think a bit???!!!! Surely, you are not so blindly loyal to Oceania that you cannot bear to think of even questioning it, can you? No offence meant but for me, no cruise line company is perfect and beyond criticism. Everyone of them have their strengths and weaknesses, every cruise line have room for improvement. What I find some people seem to "adhere" to a certain cruise line like they support some Football Team or worse, some kind of "cult". They appear to get upset when someone questions it - truly, there isn't a need to, is there, to feel like that? It is only a cruise line, after all, no more, no less.

Plus 1.

*

 

OP wondered if she should ask for a credit because of the code red on the Riviera cruise of February 12 to 22, 2016.

 

I posted the letter that I sent to Guest Relations. (Post #5) I got the Norovirus on February 11, 2016, and my husband and I were in quarantine for 4 1/2 days. (We were on B2B cruises) I posted the letter that I sent to Guest Relations and said that we were not getting anything for the time we spent in quarantine.

 

A poster said that I should email to Mike Moore. Bringing it to his attention might get better results. I emailed the letter to Mike Moore. He emailed back saying that the letter had been forwarded to Guest Relations. (Same place I had written.)

 

Received a letter back, signed by the same person as the first letter. The reply was "the position of the company has not changed and there will be no additional gestures."

 

In the following paragraph "opportunity to once again welcome you both back onboard". I doubt it, because of the way we were treated during quarantine.

 

I was asked to post the results, and that is why I have posted.

 

*

Thank you for keeping us informed.

And let it begin with you. If you don't like the noro posts, don't jump in every time you see one.

Plus 1. I agree with you.

--

 

I sent the email to Mike Moore. He emailed back saying that he had forwarded it to Guest Relations for their consideration.

 

That is where I sent the original email. I will probably get the same reply back.

 

--

I think that you will get a positive reply back. There is a big difference between Mike Moore sending it to Guest Relations than you sending it to them. He is one of the senior executive officers forwarding it over, and based on the reviews that have been posted here, I believe that he will follow up. In any event, please let us know what happens. You certainly have legitimate complaints about Oceania.

This is the letter that I sent to Oceania after I had Norovirus starting on February 11, 2016 (yes there was a lot of sickness even then, but it did not seem to be reported) . Sorry that it is so long, did not realize that until I did a preview post. However, I wanted to make sure they had all of the information of how we were treated.

 

Reply was - Nothing they can do for me - see you on your next cruise. Do they actually think I will cruise with them again after the way I was treated? I will never give my hard earned money to another Oceania cruise. I cruise with 3 other lines that are enjoyable. They will get my business from now on.

 

 

"March 8, 2016

 

RE: RIVIERA B2B CRUISE FROM FEBRUARY 2, 2016 TO FEBRUARY 22, 2016 -

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

This was our 10th and 11th cruises on Oceania. We chose the date as our 50th wedding anniversary was on February 12, 2016 and I planned on walking across the bridge in Miami to the park on the other side of the bridge on that day. Then on our return having a nice dinner.

 

The cruise was going well, even though the weather was cool. On the evening of February 10th we had dinner in the Grand Dining Room. We went to bed around 11:45pm. I did not fall asleep right away as I usually do on a cruise. My stomach was a bit upset. Now, I am a very healthy person and do not usually have stomach problems.

 

Around 12:30 am was my first bout of vomiting and diarrhea. Uncontrollable heaving in the stomach with the contents of my stomach coming up, and at the same time having the diarrhea. No control over the body at all. A few times it was so bad that I had trouble catching my breath. I actually thought that might be the end, one time. I tried to drink lots of water because even though the stomach was empty, the heaving vomiting continued. In all, there were 8 episodes of the heaving vomiting and diarrhea by 6:00 or 7:00 am. After each bout, I washed and went back to bed. I cleaned up as best I could, but around 3:00 am, the bathroom had a terrible odor of clothes that I had soiled. Did not even want to try to clean them. I called housekeeping and a man came. When he saw what it was, he left and came back with garbage bags for the soiled articles. He had a disinfectant cleaner to clean the bathroom. I was really thankful that he was available to clean during the night.

 

I am so very careful and mindful of germs. Washing my hands, using sanitizes, not touching elevator buttons or doors that others might have touched. I carry tissue to use if I must touch a handle or something that many people touch. I flush public toilets with my feet, but because of the flushing mechanism on ships, you must use your finger. However, I now have the Norovirus that is on the Riviera. Where did I get it? Different places came to mind. I would get my oatmeal and when I asked for strawberries or blueberries, the girl would take the bowl from me to put the fruit in the bowl. She wore gloves, but had also previously maybe handled the bowl of someone else. I also wondered about coming back on the ship. We would sanitize our hands before going up the gangway, but we would hand over our card to security who had previously touched all of the cards of the people getting back on the ship. Could that be where I got it? It also comes to mind that we were taking the tenders a few times on this cruise. We were on tenders February 4th, 6th and 8th. Is it only touch that spreads the germs or is it also spread through the air? I always wash my hands after reading a library book, playing table tennis, shuffleboard or croquet. However, I had a very bad case of Norovirus.

 

On February 11th, we were in Key West. I had planned to go snorkeling, but I was too weak to do anything. I asked my husband to go ashore to a pharmacy and get me some Pepto Bismol and some Imodium. He did. However when he was ashore, I thought that I should report to the doctor as the Captain had asked anyone who was sick to inform the doctor. THAT WAS THE BIGGEST MISTAKE I HAVE MADE IN A LONG TIME.

 

I went down to the medical center. There were quite a few people waiting. I was asked to fill out a form. I did not have the strength to write and the man just asked my cabin number, told me to go back to my cabin and they would phone me when there was not such a long wait.

 

I was called later and went down to see the doctor. Filled out form and talked to doctor. He gave me Pepto Bismol and Imodium and also an antibiotic. I took all of the medicine as directed. Later when I got home and did a check, it said that Norovirus was a viral infection and not a bacterial infection. Therefore I am not sure why I was given an antibiotic. I am sure that is what caused my taste to be very off. My mouth would burn when I ate bland foods. When I ate bread, it just tasted like a mouth full of yeast. Things are getting back to tasting ok now, but it has been nearly a month since I was sick.

 

I went to the medical center to report that I was sick as the Captain told us to do. I REALLY WISH THAT I HAD NOT DONE THAT. IF I HAD IT TO DO OVER AGAIN, I WOULD NOT DO AS THE CAPTAIN SAID, BUT RATHER JUST GO ON AS IF I HAD NOT BEEN SICK. I SHOULD NOT HAVE REPORTED TO THE MEDICAL CENTER. After the quarantine was over, I talked with 3 people who had been sick. They did not go to the doctor as they knew they would be quarantined.

 

The nurse phoned later that day and said that my husband and I were quarantined to our cabin. This was Thursday, Feb. 11th and we were going to Polo for our wedding anniversary celebration. There were 2 couples traveling with us (getting off on Feb. 12th in Miami though) and they had ordered a cake for the celebration. However, we could not go. We were looking forward to the B2B day when we had a special lunch. However because of the sickness, that had changed and the B2B passengers were offered a Hop on Hop off bus trip. That would be fun, but would we be able to go. We were not able to go as we were still quarantined. We had to stay in our cabin and the Customs man came to our cabin.

 

Friday, February 12th and we are in Miami. Nurse phoned in the morning and we were still quarantined. We could not leave our cabin, but we could sit on the balcony. The announcement that they were refueling came. We thought that since we were up a few decks it would be ok. However, 2 seconds after going to the balcony, we realized that the odor was too powerful. It takes most of the day to do the refueling. Nurse phones in the evening and we were still quarantined.

 

Saturday, February 13th was a sea day. Nurse phoned and we were still quarantined. I kept telling her that I was feeling fine and that my husband was never sick, but we were still not allowed to leave the cabin. There are no good programs on the tv. All we had to watch was the news about the Presidential Race for United States........and we are Canadian.

 

Nurse phones early in the morning on Sunday, February 14th. Still quarantined. We were in Grand Turk, Turks & Caicos Islands. We have been there before and enjoyed sitting on the beach, walking around and the pool. However, today we could only sit on our balcony, where there was no sun, and watch the other passengers get off the ship and walk to the lounge chairs by the water's edge. We could hear the sounds from the pool, but we could not leave our cabin today either.

 

Early in the morning of Monday, February 15th the nurse phoned. As always, asked how I was feeling and I said fine, but I would like to leave the cabin as we had been quarantined for so long. She asked if my husband was feeling ok, and I said he had never been sick. Then the same question she asked ever time, Have you had a bowel movement? I had been telling her "No" every time she asked, because any bowel movements were only in the form of water up until now. She said that I must have a solid bowel movement before I could be taken out of quarantine. I told her that I had not really eaten enough (more about that later) to have a good bowel movement. She said that I would have to have a solid bowel movement tested before we could get out of quarantine.

 

I will spare you what I went through for the next few hours. However I was able to get a bowel movement about the size of a pea that was solid. I phoned and a man came to collect it. Around noon I was phoned and said that we would be released at 3:00 that afternoon. We were waiting to get off the ship at San Juan, Puerto Rico at 3:00. However, security said we could not leave the ship. Even though we had our sail cards back, when swiped, it said we were still under quarantine and could not leave the ship. Sent to pursers office and we were not on the list, but within 15 minutes we were allowed to leave the ship. Freedom at last. WE HAD BEEN IN QUARANTINE FOR 4 1/2 DAYS. Also, I had been sick for the previous 8 hours.

 

And now I would like to tell you about the food that we were given. I was told that I should eat a bland diet of chicken, rice, potatoes and bread. Room service had us pegged as "Bland Diet Only". When I phoned to order I was told that they could not send certain things to me. I said that it was for my husband and he was not sick. Have you ever had one of their club sandwiches. It is drowning in a sauce. Absolutely terrible. My husband was not able to get bacon and eggs for breakfast (one of the things he enjoys on a cruise) as we were in a regular balcony cabin. The chicken I ordered was dry and tasteless. The baked potatoes were cold. We did have a nice soup one time. I was able to order a salad 2 times. I ordered it with dressing on the side as I do not like the dressings from room service. The chicken came with zucchini. I do not like zucchini, so did not eat it. I actually wanted jello and I was told they would check, but I never got any. When I talked to the doctor when he was releasing me, he said continue on the bland diet for awhile......chicken, rice, potatoes and bread. No vegetables for awhile (I said that I had been eating some salad) and also no dairy. The best meals from room service was the rice krispie cereal with milk.

 

It is a good thing that I brought along some snacks. They came in handy when we were hungry. I would sometimes phone Room Service and was told that because they were busy, it would be an hour before the food could be delivered. A few times I just cancelled because of this.

 

Also it was very interesting how the food was delivered. The tray was wrapped in seran wrap. Food was on plastic plates and wrapped in seran wrap. The cereal had to be eaten from a plastic plate as they did not have any throw-away plastic bowls. This could not be held or the milk would run off. It had to be set on the low table. The coffee and tea was in a see through plastic cup and covered with seran wrap when it came. There were 2 cups together as it was hot. Milk came the same way. We were given packages with plastic knife, fork and spoon along with a tiny paper napkin. And then, there was the red bag. We had to put all of the garbage in this red bag and then housekeeping collected them.

 

THIS WAS NOT WHAT WE CONSIDER FINE DINING. THIS WAS NOT HAVING A GOOD TIME. THIS WAS NOT THE CRUISE WE PAID FOR.

 

I was now looking forward to going to Cayo Levantado to snorkel, swim and lay on the beach. Also to snorkeling (at one of my favorite spots) Nassau, Bahamas on Sunday, Feb. 21st. However on Thursday, February 18th the Captain announced that we were going direct to Miami to arrive on Saturday, February 20th at 6:00 pm. Friday, Feb. 19th was not an enjoyable day. The ship was going 20 knots and it was a windy day. We could not sit on the balcony because of the salt spray and it was too windy to be up on the pool deck. On Saturday, the ship slowed down, however our balcony was still wet and there were salt crystals all over.

 

On those 2 days, we had to show our room key card before we were allowed to get food. Some of the people who were quarantined were leaving their cabins to get food. Their room key cards had been taken away from them, but they still tried to get food. We had to have our cards checked before we could enter a food venue. It was very hard to get a table in Horizons. The tables and chairs were sanitized between diners and could not be used for some time after. When the people sitting near you left, the tables and chairs were sanitized and this gave a javex smell. Elevators and other surfaces were constantly wiped down, leaving a sticky surface. Even the floors were sticky when you walked over them. When Norovirus surfaced again on the February 2, 2016 cruise, the ship should have been taken out of service and cleaned before the February 12, 2016 cruise. It would have been a more enjoyable cruise for everyone knowing the ship had been deep cleaned.

 

When the February 12 cruise was shortened by 2 days, we were told we would be put in a hotel for 2 days and we could return home on our original airplane tickets. Our hotel was to be the Doubletree near Miami airport. We had never stayed at a Doubletree, and I was not looking forward to it, but it turned out to be a nice hotel. However, it was not near any restaurants. We walked half an hour looking for a restaurant, but returned to the hotel to order pizza.

 

We were given 25% off the next Oceania cruise that we book. (This was not put in letter - There is of course a formula for this.) We will not be using this as I do not want to go on another Oceania cruise and have it turn out to be like this one. Looked forward to and anticipated a good time. It was far from enjoyable.

 

"Experience

YOUR WORLD. YOUR WAY.

The Finest Cuisine at Sea, authentic destination experiences and an intimate, luxurious ambiance are the hallmarks that define Oceania Cruises. Yet perhaps more than anything else, it's the ultimate satisfaction of simply relaxing and enjoying every moment of the journey in your own way. From the moment you step on board one of our stylish ships, you feel welcomed by our casually sophisticated atmosphere and dedicated staff. As you explore both iconic destinations and enchanting boutique ports around the world, striking up conversations among those that find travel as meaningful as you becomes effortless. With a wealth of amenities you might only expect on larger ships, along with luxuries exclusive to our intimate ships, our onboard experience invites you to spend your days exactly as you wish. Whether savoring our gourmet cuisine or exploring ashore, you will cherish every moment of the voyage as perfectly your own." THESE ARE THE WORDS IN YOUR BROCHURE.

 

From reading what happened to us, would you say that Oceania delivered this experience to us. That is why I am requesting that Oceania reimburse my husband and I 100% of the cruise fare so that we can renew our faith in Oceania. If what happened to us happened to you, would you ever again give you hard earned dollars to Oceania for a cruise? I am sure that you would not, and we will not.

 

Thank you.

 

"Signed with address and all particulars" "

I suggest that you e-mail mikemoore@prestigecruiseholdings.com. He is a senior VP of the company, and a lot of other Oceania cruises have received satisfaction from him. I feel sure that you will hear back from him, and that you will be satisfied. Let us know how that turns out.

If you purchase your cruise using Chase Sapphire preferred CC or several other cards trip cancellation insurance is covered up to $10,000 per person. Also , you get 2-1 points on travel. Medical is not covered. There are a couple of lengthy threads on trip insurance if you type in "trip insurance" in the search option.

Richard

True, but keep in mind that Chase Sapphire does not cover pre existing conditions. I am not sure what pre existing means.

I understand the switch, but I don't understand how they can hold $500 of our deposit "for future use on an Oceania cruise within the next year" if we decide to cancel, and not refund all of it if requested. It was their decision to make the change, which doesn't work for us since we have no desire to visit most of the new places they have offered. Plus we are not comfortable staying in Istanbul and flying to Athens on our own (we had the pre-cruise hotel arranged through Oceania,) and switching our business class air to

Athens would be about $1,500 more a person, so that is not feasible either. It's bad enough I'm paying a $300 per ticket penalty to cancel my Istanbul flights. I think we should get our entire deposit back, especially since my traveling companion is 80 years old, and we have no idea how her health will be in a year. Also, I checked my trip insurance, and the fine print says that if the cruise line offers an alternative, it's not covered.

Which airline are you using? Have you asked them if they will waive the penalty? I notice that one poster stated he was flying on Delta, and that they waived the penalty because of the circumstances.

I asked my travel agent to call Oceania because of a cruise we had booked for Sept. 2016 to find out what the O promotion would be for our ten day cruise. She called Oceania, and called me back to tell me that for prepaid gratuities, free internet and 4 free excursions it would be one thousand four hundred and forty nine dollars for each of us. I said no way. She also stated, she agreed, and that we were better off not taking it. She also stated the regular price, without the Oceania promotion was one thousand seventy hundred fifty dollars. As I stated, we turned down Oceania's offer.

This is an update to my post. I just looked at what we paid for the cruise, and what the cost now is for the cruise. We are in a g cabin on a Rivera Med cruise. I notice that Oceania has increased the cost by about 1500 dollars per person, and that all the f and g cabins are waitlisted on our cruise. Wow, what an increase. I guess we were very wise or lucky to have booked this cruise early. I think that we were probably lucky. :)

When a cruise I have booked showed the O promotion, I had my TA call Oceania to find out about my booking. We were told that it would be $1350 pp to add the promo. I nearly had a stroke.

 

I do see where the cruise I booked is more than when I booked, but not that much that I could figure. Anyway, they have the coins figured out.

I asked my travel agent to call Oceania because of a cruise we had booked for Sept. 2016 to find out what the O promotion would be for our ten day cruise. She called Oceania, and called me back to tell me that for prepaid gratuities, free internet and 4 free excursions it would be one thousand four hundred and forty nine dollars for each of us. I said no way. She also stated, she agreed, and that we were better off not taking it. She also stated the regular price, without the Oceania promotion was one thousand seventy hundred fifty dollars. As I stated, we turned down Oceania's offer.

I have no objection to Oceania raising their prices for the O'life promotions for customers who have already booked a cruise. However, I think that they should state that the price that those who have already booked a cruise may or will go up if they take advantage of that promotion. Isn't that only fair?

My wife and I have already booked a cruise on Oceania for next year which do not include any of the O'life promotions mentioned above. I called my travel agent to ask her if that promotion applied to our upcoming cruise on Riviera next year. She said she would call Oceania which she did. She stated that Oceania told her to call the revenue department on Monday, in order to find out what the charge would be. She stated that Oceania indicated to her that our cost for the cruise would probably go up if we wanted to take advantage of the promotion. Does anyone know if that is Oceania's policy to indicate to their customers that this is free, when it fact there is a charge to customers who have already booked to raise the price? :confused:

No one can change your cabin except "O". They have the record-it had to be in the "O" office. And so what if they have thousands of bookings---it your booking that counts.

Rick

Plus 111! I totally agree with you. It had to be Oceania, and it looks like they are playing the "pass the buck game." Not classy on Oceania's part.

For that reason, an Oceania ship has never left port without 100% of its' least expensive rooms occupied, plus a wait list of 50 crying out for the privilege.

The conundrum for Oceania Executives is, how do they add extra amenities for the rest of us, without improving those base level cabins out of all proportion?

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Or so that is what those executives tell us, but do we really know how accurate those capitalistic salesman are? After all they may be paid on how well they sell. :)

If the fine print wasn't there, there would be no thread or an issue. Internet is important to many, so why play games with consumers? The ONLY reason it is hidden in fine print is to film-flam consumers. It certainly isn't print space!

Plus five! :)

I like many others on this forum have had problems dealing with Oceania Cruises customer service department. I even posted some of my problems on this website, and got numerous smart alec comments from some of the die hard Oceania supporters on this forum. However, Mike Moore a vice president for Prestige Holdings did respond to my complaints on this website. He also posted his e-mail address. I contacted him via that e-mail address. He responded immediately and quickly solved my problem. I would suggest to those who have problems, do not listen to the naysayers and die hard can do no wrong posters for Oceania cruisers on this forum. Instead contact Mike Moore a Vice President of Prestige Cruises at mmoore@prestigecruiseholdings.com. He is the cruise critic forum representative for Oceania cruises-and a great representative for Oceania cruises. He is far better and more supportive than many of the die hard can do no wrong Oceania supporters of Oceania on this forum-and you know who you are!

The ability to speak to someone on the phone remains the hallmark of good efficient customer service The ability to ask a simple question and get a quick answer works fine in most situations. Where written communication is necessary or preferred it always remains an option. Very few guest relations interactions with a cruise line need to be in writing for any kind of legal or documentation reason.

Best answer. I totally agree. One of the major reasons I cruise Crystal is because they have great customer service. For example, on one of my cruises I had to go see the ship's doctors. I had a bad cold. I had to pay the bill upfront. I think that the cost came to about $150. They gave me a receipt. I submitted it to my insurance company. They said they needed more information about the code. I contacted Crystal guest relations. They got in touch with the doctor and called my insurance company back. My insurance company told me they were satisfied with Crystal's response and paid me the total amount of my claim. I would not cruise with a cruise company that treated me the way Oceania treated the original poster.

One size does not fit all. The credit cards work. They pay just like insurance bought from your TA or a website We are saving thousands a year and scoring points for miles towards free air at the same time.

 

We have no preexisting conditions so not a concern

 

It's good for people to be aware that this is a viable option so they can make an informed choice

 

It may not be suitable for everyone or for every trip

Plus 1. I agree and like you we too are saving big bucks and earning points towards miles by using the credit card insurance. :)

The insurance that is provided by the credit cards (like Chase Sapphire) is not provided by Chase but rather by an insurance company (Chubb). Thus in principle it should be no different than that provided by any other insurance company listed with Insuremytrip. Of course, it will differ in details and coverage, much like coverages by any other company.

For example, with Insuremytrip you can find Allianz Global that offers 3 different policies - Basic, Classic & Classic Trip Plus. This is true for many other companies. Each one covers more than the previous and thus costs more. You have to choose the one you are comfortable with.

But in principle Allianz is no different from Chubb if you are comfortable with the extent of coverage, limitations and exclusions (that all policies have to some extent). The price will be different as Chubb is included when you make the purchase with your cc and the other one is extra.

Everyone has to choose the one that they are comfortable with.

BTW, I had one claim with Chubb (via my Sapphire card) and it was paid out in the full amount claimed.

PS Don, your situation with the World cruise is very different. I certainly would not (could not) even consider using my cc as an insurance policy.

Very good explanation. I agree.

Upon reading the small print there is a pre existing condition clause. If you have been treated for the condition within 60 days prior to booking and that condition is the reason for cancellation. It is very confusing to me and I called Chase 2 different times and got two different replies. I was told to contact Chubb. I emailed them and did not hear back. Please refer to your most recent guide to benefits Page 19.

"Pre existing conditions: illness, disease or accidental injury of you, your travelling companion, your immediate family member or the immediate family member of your travelling companion for which medical advice, diagnosis, care or treatment was recommended or received within the 60 day period immediately prior to the purchase of a covered trip. The taking of prescription drugs, medications for a controlled condition throughout this 60 day period will not be considered to be a treatment of illness or disease".

Does anyone know if the 60 day period begins upon the payment of the DEPOSIT or upon the payment of the FULL amount. I talked to two different Chase agents and got two different answers. One said after the deposit. The other said after the FUll payment. Neither could point to or give me a specific regulation which gave an answer. :confused:

I read in a recent review that O class ship entertainment by Jean Ann Ryan singers and dancers is coming to an end and changes/enhancements to entertainment are occurring as part of NCL takeover. Can anyone confirm this and offer any details especially about timing?

I did not know that they had any entertainment compared to the other cruise ships? :confused:

I Agree, Mike has been a prime example of Service and Support! His willingness to engage and 'own' issues to resolutions is a shining example of what Customer Service is all about.

 

Thanks Mike for being there for all of us!

Charlotte

Excellent post. I completely agree. I especially agree and like your comment that he is willing to "'own' issues to resolutions." He not only talks the talk, he walks the walk! It is solely because of Mike's response to my post, and is acting on my request to stop those mailings, that my wife and I now plan to take more Oceania cruises. Thank you again for your assistance. I look forward to meeting you on an Oceania cruise and best wishes!

I too agree. Fantastic customer service from Mike! He is truly a great representative for Oceania!! Plus, plus, plus to infinity!!

Yes & yes - no points for taxes (not a significant amount) and the points post only after the cruise - they want to make sure you actually take it :D

Paulchili, thank you very much. One more question, how long did it take for you to receive your points after you took your cruise?

Thank you. I did speak to an agent. He also told me that the points that they give do not post UNTIL AFTER the cruise is completed. This is unlike the UA credit card and Chase Sapphire which posts the points WHEN you make the payment. Has that been your experience?

Also, the agent told me that the points that they give do not include the taxes that you pay for the cruise. Is that what you were told?

I only speak to the agents but when I ask for the full benefits (most points possible) they ask me if I have the UA MP card.

Just get it in writing or ask a couple of different people.

Thank you. I did speak to an agent. He also told me that the points that they give do not post UNTIL AFTER the cruise is completed. This is unlike the UA credit card and Chase Sapphire which posts the points WHEN you make the payment. Has that been your experience?