ADA Ruling, by justice department

Interesting reading for disabled cruisers. ;) :rolleyes:

Cato :)

http://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-reaches-agreement-carnival-corp-over-ada-violations-carnival-cruise-line

The other cruise lines will have to follow suit on some of these requirements. Should make things a little easier for the disabled travelers.

Hi,

I found that very interesting and thanks for posting it.

My worry, if I'm reading it right is that you will be able to book accessible cabins on-line instead of having to telephone the cruise line. I know this will make it easier for disabled travellers but it will also make it easy for those who wish to abuse the provision of accessible cabins.

I'm from the UK so there may be differences in how we book, please bear this in mind if you reply to my post.

Pete

Hi,

 

I found that very interesting and thanks for posting it.

 

My worry, if I'm reading it right is that you will be able to book accessible cabins on-line instead of having to telephone the cruise line. I know this will make it easier for disabled travellers but it will also make it easy for those who wish to abuse the provision of accessible cabins.

 

I'm from the UK so there may be differences in how we book, please bear this in mind if you reply to my post.

 

Pete

ADA does not require that the cruise line prohibit booking of accessible cabins on line just as it doesn't prohibit the booking of accessible hotel rooms on line.

Specific to the booking of Accessible Rooms ,be it a cruise ship or hotel, the US Supreme Court ruled and implemented a Federal Law under the Department of Transportation based on Spector et. al. VS Norwegian Cruise Lines that went into effecton January 1, 2012 to prevent fraud in the assignment of accessible cabins on ships embarking from a USA Port (e.g., attempts by individuals who do not have disabilities to reserve accessible cabins because they have greater space, cruise lines and hotels :

Though this ruling has helped to minimize the fraudulent booking of accessible rooms there's nothing stopping anyone from lying about their need for such a cabin whether it's booked on-line or by phone. Reason being the Cruise Lines as well as Hotels are prohibited by USA Federal Privacy Laws for asking any specific details as to the actual disability and or medical condition of the individual. They can only request that the individual attests to the fact that they have a mobility disability or a disability that requires the use of the accessible features provided in the cabin.

Additionally it should be note that RCCL, Celebrity as well as Princess currently allow the booking of accessible cabins on line.

My worry, if I'm reading it right is that you will be able to book accessible cabins on-line instead of having to telephone the cruise line. I know this will make it easier for disabled travellers but it will also make it easy for those who wish to abuse the provision of accessible cabins.

My interpretation was that unless a FAC was specifically requested by a customer, they are not to be booked until there are no other cabins available. I would think this would still require a phone call to reserve one of these cabins.

As for the internet issue, it is in order to make the website more user friendly for folks with visual disabilities. It also requires that they show FAC availability numbers online.

My interpretation was that unless a FAC was specifically requested by a customer' date=' they are not to be booked until there are no other cabins available. I would think this would still require a phone call to reserve one of these cabins.[/b']

 

As for the internet issue, it is in order to make the website more user friendly for folks with visual disabilities. It also requires that they show FAC availability numbers online.

Your interpretation is correct to a point provided the person booking the cabin is not doing so fraudulently. Cruise lines are not required to hold back the room nor are accessible cabins required to be booked only by phone . Refer to my previous post #4 this thread.

You are correct in saying that if the accessible cabin is the last available in that category that it can be booked (by an abled body person). Additionally after the final payment period has past the Cruise Line has the legal right to release all unsold accessible cabins for booking by the general public regardless of the fact they may not have a need for such a cabin.

Thanks for the clarification. I was typing my response when you posted your first comment, so I didn't see it until after I submitted.

Hi,

Thanks for the responses.

In my experience when booking accessible cabins in the UK either with a travel agent or cruise line web sites you have to phone up to be able to book, even when you phone a travel agent they then have to contact the cruise line before they allow an accessible cabin to be booked.

I do find it very interesting reading how different countries interpret equality legislation.

Pete

Hi, Donna's Mom & Dad,i'm UK based and was interested in the link, is there a reason why the link dates July 2015, has it only now come into being law?

Could I also ask a question to everybody ,if I fly to New York and travel back to the UK on one of Cunard Queens will I be covered under the ADA ? but if I sail from the UK to New York and fly back to the UK I presume that it would not apply.

Hi, Donna's Mom & Dad,i'm UK based and was interested in the link, is there a reason why the link dates July 2015, has it only now come into being law?

 

Could I also ask a question to everybody ,if I fly to New York and travel back to the UK on one of Cunard Queens will I be covered under the ADA ? but if I sail from the UK to New York and fly back to the UK I presume that it would not apply.

You may find your answer under the following website.

http://digitalcommons.pace.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1097&context=pilr

Cato :)

Completed Cruises !

Pre-cruise Days - The Big Red Boat, 1993 ??

1st cruise - Coral Princess, 19 November 2008, 10 day Panama Canal, FLL to ACA

2nd cruise - Coral Princess, 15 May 2009, 3 day Repositioning, Los Angeles to Vancouver.

3rd cruise - Sapphire Princess, 25 November 2009? 7 day Mexican Riviera.

4th cruise - Golden Princes, 12 June 2010, 7 day Alaska. (Golden Anniversary Cruise)

5th Cruise - Island Princess, 04 October 2010, Vancouver - Los Angeles, Repositioning

6th cruise - Sapphire Princess, 05 January 2011, 10 day Mexican Riviera. LA to LA.

7th cruise - Golden Princess, 11 May 2011, 3 day, LA to Vancouver, Repositioning

8th cruise - Sapphire Princess, 14 May 2011, 1 day, Vancouver to Seattle, Repositioning

9th cruise - Coral Princess 19 May 2011 2 day, San Francisco to Vancouver, Repositioning

10th & 11th cruises - Coral Princess 02 July to 16 July 2011, round trip Vancouver - Whittier Alaska, B2B

12th & 13th cruises - Sapphire Princess, x2, Cabins, 18 Sep. 2011, 1 day, Seattle to Vancouver, Repositioning

14th & 15th cruises - Golden Princess, x2, Cabins, 24 Sep. 2011, 1 day, Seattle to Vancouver, Repositioning.

We have now reached Elite status with Princess Cruise Lines

16th cruise - Oasis of the Seas, 26 Nov. 2011, 7 day, Western Caribbean, Ft. Lauderdale, Ret.

17th & 18th cruises - Crown Princess B2B, 03 - 10 Dec & 10 - 17 Dec 2011, 14 Days, South & western Caribbean

19th cruise - Grand Princess, 31 Mar. - 07 April 2012, 7 Days, Eastern Caribbean, FLL - FLL

20th cruise - Island Princess, 06-16 June 2012, 10 day cruisetour Vancouver - Wittier

21th cruise - Emerald Princess, 16 day, 10 - 26 Sep. 2012, TA, Copenhagen - New York

22nd cruise - Carnival Ecstasy 10 - 14 January, 2013, 4 Day Bahamas, Port Canaveral Ret.

23rd cruise - Sapphire Princess 30 March - 06 April, 2013, 7 Day Coastal LA - LA

24th cruise - Coral Princess, 19 May - 22 May, 2013, 3 Day Repositioning Cruise, LA - Vancouver

25th cruise - Royal Princess 16 June - 05 July, 2013, 19 Day Inaugural cruise, Southampton - Venice.

26th cruise - Emerald Princess, 06 - 16 October, 2013, 10 Day Canada - New England, Quebec city to New York

27th cruise - Royal Princess, 24 November - 01 December, 2013, 7 Day,Eastern Caribbean, Fort Lauderdale Ret.

28th cruise - Sapphire Princess, 20 - 24 Jan, 2014, 4 Days, California

29th cruise - Crown Princess, 03 - 10 May 2014, 7 Day, LA to Vancouver.

30th cruise - Pacific Princess, 05 - 12 Aug. 2014, 7 Days, Vancouver RT, Alaska

31st cruise - Golden Princess, 13 - 17 Oct. 2014, 4 Days, LA - Mexican Riv, RT,

32nd cruise - Crown Princess, 20 - 27 Dec. 2014, 7 Days, LA - Mexican Riv, RT.

33rd cruise - Coral Princess, 27Apr. - 02 May.2015, 5 Days, LA - Vancouver, Repo

The other cruise lines will have to follow suit on some of these requirements. Should make things a little easier for the disabled travelers.

While I am a supporter of accessible cruising' date=' I find it interesting that this settlement went through in the first place, and that it has not been challenged by the other cruise lines or CLIA to date.

From the Supreme Court decision, Spector v. NCL, which first applied the ADA to foreign flag cruise ships, the Court ruled that "without clear congressional intent", meaning that unless Congress specifically put wording into the ADA that applies it to foreign ships, that any portion of the ADA that affects the ship's "internal operations and procedures" [b']would not apply.[/b]

I think the need for more accessible cabins, and the ability to book them prioritized to those who actually need them is correct, I think that some of the settlement between Carnival and DOJ goes beyond what the Supreme Court has decided as the law of the land. To go further, Congress needs to get off its collective butt and do something, which they have failed to do in the years since Spector.

Hi, Donna's Mom & Dad,i'm UK based and was interested in the link, is there a reason why the link dates July 2015, has it only now come into being law?

 

Could I also ask a question to everybody ,if I fly to New York and travel back to the UK on one of Cunard Queens will I be covered under the ADA ? but if I sail from the UK to New York and fly back to the UK I presume that it would not apply.

The settlement between the USA Justice Department in the #1 post of this thread currently only applies to Carnival Cruise Lines, Princess Cruise Lines and Holland America Cruise line until . Based on the article it appears that it does not extend to all of Carnival Corporation Cruise Brands at this time .

As result of this ruling the question now becomes as to whether or not current ADA Law will be amended as a result of this settlement for compliance by all Cruise Lines embarking from a USA Port and if so when does it become effective ? For example refer back to the link in the 1st post which does not state the effective date for compliance of 49 Carnival Ships currently embarking in the USA . There certainly has to be an effective date as these changes do not happen overnight . The article only mentions a compliance date of 4 years for 13 ships of pertaining to Carnival Cruise Lines, Princess Cruise Lines as well as Holland America Cruise line provided they're still servicing the USA at that time. Bottom line there's much more to this than just what's stated in the article as changes like these don't happen overnight.

Therefore at the present time it still appears ADA Law only applies to the public areas of the ship for all other ships embarking from a USA . At that it's still questionable as to what that all means as refer back to Cheng quote ChengKP75's post #11 which states "the Supreme Court decision, Spector v. NCL, which first applied the ADA to foreign flag cruise ships, the Court ruled that "without clear congressional intent", meaning that unless Congress specifically put wording into the ADA that applies it to foreign ships, that any portion of the ADA that affects the ship's "internal operations and procedures" would not apply."

The question still remains as to whether or the ADA Law will actually be amended as a result of the ruling in post #1 of this thread goes for compliance by all cruise lines embarking from a USA Port ? If so when is the compliance effective date for all cruise lines as this just doesn't happen overnight ?

So it appears that despite the ruling in the 1st post of this thread a cruise embarking from the USA to the UK ,such as Cunard which was not mentioned in the settlement , has to comply on a limited basis with ADA law. The reverse does not apply for a cruise from embarking from UK that disembarks in the USA as it would be subject to any applicable UK and or European Union Laws.

xxoocruiser, thanks for explaining the new ruling, not being familiar with the ADA legislation could you if possable explain what limited basis to the ADA law means?

Thanks.

xxoocruiser, thanks for explaining the new ruling, not being familiar with the ADA legislation could you if possable explain what limited basis to the ADA law means?

 

Thanks.

ADA compliance currently applies only to the public areas of a Foreign Flagged Ships embarking from a USA port. It does not apply to the entire build out of the ship as that's what the USA Congress still has not defined as a result of the USA Supreme Court decision regarding Spector v. NCL several years ago.

There is only one cruise ship among the hundreds of ships at this time that must fully comply with USA ADA Law. That cruise ship is NCL's Pride of America that is permanently based in USA, specifically Hawaii, and sails exclusively in the USA.

ADA compliance currently applies only to the public areas of a Foreign Flagged Ships embarking from a USA port. It does not apply to the entire build out of the ship as that's what the USA Congress still has not defined as a result of the USA Supreme Court decision regarding Spector v. NCL several years ago.

 

There is only one cruise ship among the hundreds of ships at this time that must fully comply with USA ADA Law. That cruise ship is NCL's Pride of America that is permanently based in USA, specifically Hawaii, and sails exclusively in the USA.

Further to XXOO's response, the limitations on public areas is that "reasonable" removal of barriers to accessibility need to be removed, but not all areas need to be ADA compliant. For instance, I believe Princess has a lounge that is accessible only by stairs, and this is not a violation of ADA, since it would require a major refitting of the ship to accommodate.

Thank you, for help explaining some of the ADA rules

Any improvement helps. We went on the Carnival Magic and while it is *mostly* accessible, the attitudes of the staff towards my husband (paraplegic who uses a manual chair) was horrible. I went to guest services to ask questions about the accessibility of the ship...if they had an accessibility map, how to go to shows, etc. I was told they didn't know. No one knew. They acted so put out I was asking. We didn't get to one show because we had no idea how to. NO ONE was helpful on that ship, except when we were getting on. Our muster station was not accessible! They made us stand down the steps where we couldn't hear instructions. And then yelled at us when we sat on the steps to wait for it to be over.

Although there was one lady who was nice. She started out being kind of a B, but then I said "hey, this is serious...we don't know the drills for an emergency. A ship just sunk (we went right after costa con cordia (?)). We should be able to have an accessible muster station". She thought for a second and then was nice to us after that. At least validated this was very frustrating and not right.

I contacted guest services several times over the trip to get an accessible muster station. Never did. I did get a voice mail at the end saying "well if something happens, ask crew members to lift your husband". Thanks. Thats going to be super helpful in event of a sinking ship. It really felt like they were saying "hey if we sink, hubby is just going to have to go down with the ship...too bad so sad"

We are from Germany. We have special permits for handicapped persons. It is like a passport with a picture. This "passport" says how your percentage of handicap is. My husband is paraplegic and he is full time in a wheelchair, so he has 100%!

When we book a cruise here in our country we have to scan this permit to the TA or the cruise line. Only if they have this permit we can book an accessible cabin. So nobody can book it here if it is not necessary, Then we come onboard and see that in the room we normally liked to book people leave with no handicap. So in US because nobody asked for everybody is able to book the bigger room. ADA can do what they want until nobody needs an attest.

That is the point

:(

We are from Germany. We have special permits for handicapped persons. It is like a passport with a picture. This "passport" says how your percentage of handicap is. My husband is paraplegic and he is full time in a wheelchair, so he has 100%!

When we book a cruise here in our country we have to scan this permit to the TA or the cruise line. Only if they have this permit we can book an accessible cabin. So nobody can book it here if it is not necessary, Then we come onboard and see that in the room we normally liked to book people leave with no handicap. So in US because nobody asked for everybody is able to book the bigger room. ADA can do what they want until nobody needs an attest.

That is the point

:(

Actually the statements you made that are above highlighted in red are not correct.

ADA law does NOT govern the actual booking of Accessible cabins pertaining to cruise ships. In fact ADA only applies to the public areas of a cruise ship that embarks from a USA . The specifics to which ADA may or may not apply to the entire build out of a ship still has yet to be defined by the USA Congress .

Additionally there's only one cruise ship out of hundreds that must fully comply with ADA. That ship is NCL's Pride of American which is permanently based in the USA ( Hawaii) and only sails in the USA (Hawaii). Suggest you go back and read the following posts in this thread :#4, #11, #12 ,#14, and #15

Furthermore the booking of Accessible Cabins for any cruise ship embarking from a USA port regardless of country of register is governed by the USA Federal Dept. of Transportation and NOT by ADA Law under the USA Dept. of Justice The law that applies to the booking of accessible rooms for cruise ships embarking from USA came about as a result of the United States Supreme Court Rules on Spector et. al. VS Norwegian Cruise Lines. a Federal Law under the Department of Transportation ( commonly referred to as DOT) which effective on January 1, 2012 that requires that the cruise lines have to verify that the person occupying the cabin has a medical or physical need to book the cabin . Though this new regulation came about in 2010/2011, the cruise lines were granted until January 1, 2012 to completely comply with these new regulations. Because of this new law Cruise lines have also had to reclassify its HC cabins. Some of the key points to this new law are: