cruiseseal

10 minutes ago, NLH Arizona said:

FYI, the poster you don't believe is a Chief Engineer, who is very knowledgable about the workings of the ships, so I believe he knows more than most.

I was not a Chief Engineer (I assume you mean on a ship), but have enough physics and engineering knowledge to translate my observations into understanding how things work. I know what I know about about the ships I was on. The air never came in from the hallway, it was always came in from the balcony, regardless of whether my room door was closed or open, that's negative pressure (maybe he's calling it positive pressure, and we're agreeing, but whatever).

Also, if air from our room was mixed with air coming into neighbor's room (through air conditioning), I would smell smoke from air conditioning, which I didn't, and neighbor's rooms reeked when I walked by it when their door was open. I even overheard the room attendant talking about them smoking in the bathroom.

Actually, I agree that cabins may have slight positive pressure relative to the hallway, but they have negative pressure relative to outside.

27 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

BTW, leaving the balcony door open affects the air conditioning for surrounding cabins, causing them to get warmer, and this is personally more annoying than a balcony smoker.

Don't believe you. The air from cabin doesn't circulate back into air conditioning of other cabins. Air conditioning can be set to make you room super cold, so you must be a penguin 🙂

27 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

BTW, the air system is not set up for negative pressure.  If that were the case, then every time a door to the open deck was opened, there would be a rush of air into the ship.  Yes, fans do draw air into the ship, but this is balanced by the exhaust fans removing air from bathrooms and public spaces.  Public spaces generally have balanced air pressure, and cabins have positive pressure, designed that way to prevent smoke entering a cabin from the passageways.  This can be shown by doing what you propose, opening the balcony door, and then opening the passageway door.  There will be a hurricane blast of air out the balcony door.  So, no, smoke would not be drawn into balcony cabins aft of the smoker, just the reverse in fact.

You must have been on different ship. On every ship I was on, there was always a rush of air into the hallway when I open the door with balcony open. Sometimes it is subtle, sometimes it's very strong, but I never experienced air rushing into the room from the hallway. Rooms have same pressure as the ship, because room doors are not air-tight and neither are balcony doors, even if air conditioning is on, it's nothing compared to the ships general air intake system, and ship has to have negative pressure to prevent air from going from the passage ways into the room. When our neighbor was smoking on the balcony, the smell was coming in easily with the balcony door closed.

27 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Most of the air in your cabin is recirculated.  80% of the cabin volume is recirculated strictly from the cabin and back to the cabin.  20% of the cabin volume is exhausted by the bathroom fan and under the doorway into the passageway, and this is balanced by 20% of the cabin volume (supplied at a higher pressure) supplied from outside fresh air.

You just explained why cabins have negative pressure, generated by ships air systems, not by in-cabin air system. Please think about it some more.

BTW, what's the point of a balcony room exactly, if you don't open your balcony door for some fresh air? It seems silly to me, but I guess to each their own. Of course, once again, it doesn't matter, because my room smelled like smoke regardless of whether the balcony door was closed or open. In fact, I first noticed the smoke when the door was closed.

21 minutes ago, Oceangal711 said:

Levels of pollution on some cruise ships' decks are worse than in the world's most polluted cities

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/pollution-cruise-ships-po-oceana-higher-piccadilly-circus-channel-4-dispatches-a7821911.html

Although I am sure every ship is different, that's still good info (seriously, not being facetious), I'll try to avoid the part of the deck downwind of the funnels in the future (which is generally a small portion of the deck, but still). Doesn't change the fact that it doesn't get to lower decks, and most of the ship, most of the time. Maybe we can put all the smokers there, since they don't care about particulates in their lungs anyway.

"The device found that the air on the deck downwind of, and directly next to the ship's funnels, had 84,000 ultra-fine particulates per cubic centimetre. 

Directly next to the funnels on the deck, the numbers rocketed to 144,000 with a peak at 226,000."

10 minutes ago, Oceangal711 said:

I think he's trying to tell that the air you breathe on a ship is polluted. Whether people are smoking or not.

Exhaust doesn't go down to the ship majority of the time, and air systems have filters, so you can always go inside the ship to avoid exhaust if the ship is stationary at the port and there is some downdraft.

19 minutes ago, amscene1 said:

I personally like to smoke on my balcony, but I make sure it’s late and no ones around. I would never smoke if my neighbors were outside. 

 

If its 1am and I have a drink and my cigarette and the coast is clear I’ll do it, otherwise I’ll run up topside. 

 

As for fines, ive never been caught and don’t think I will but if I am it still won’t be my last time. 

 

I suppose I could make a nasty reply, but given that's what you're fishing for, I'll take the high ground instead. Many sleep with balcony door open, for that fresh ocean air, not for your cigarette smoke. BTW, the air system in ships is generally setup to pull air from outside into the cabin (negative pressure), and because of lateral wind, smoke travels along the ship and gets sucked into every open balcony room. Please don't do this anymore, both because it is against cruise rules, and because it's inconsiderate to other passengers.

Also, thanks for providing a good example to support a tech solution to this problem, as well as for more serious consequences (like taking people off the ship), since obviously existing policies aren't enough to dissuade some smokers.

2 hours ago, dalmoradie said:

I live in NYC in Belle Harbor right on Rockaway Beach.  There is no smoking anywhere on the beach or the boardwalk.  That rule is strictly enforced all year long.  There is also no smoking in all public parks.  

 

"Smoke-Free Parks and Beaches. To improve the beauty of the city's public outdoor spaces, and ensure an even healthier and cleaner experience for New Yorkers,smoking is prohibited within New York City's parks, beaches and pedestrian plazas."  

https://www.nycgovparks.org/facility/rules/smoke-free

New Jersey soon to follow.

https://www.nj.gov/governor/news/news/562018/approved/20180720a.shtml

On a related note, Great Stirrup Cay, the NCL owned island that some people rave about, doesn't have any smoking restrictions (I learned about that when I asked the lifeguard). He said they just rely on the smokers to consider their surroundings. It can get pretty crowded on the beach, and I saw people smoke next to kids/families, instead of going off to the side. Not all smokers did that, but it just shows you that you can't rely on people to be nice.

23 minutes ago, ColeThornton said:

 

 

Well, hang around because the subject is re-visited weekley.   🙂

As it should be. Hopefully some cruise lines pay attention. BTW, it's a somewhat bizarre that Celebrity X is the best in this regard, even though NCL and RC cater more to families. I also noticed no one mentioned Disney (or maybe I missed it), are they smoke free?

5 minutes ago, Relax@Sea said:

You are making a statement that is not necessarily true. Once again you are creating a scenario to go off topic.

You may want to start on new thread for how perfume affects aren't associated with any health risks.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19326669

It's not off-topic, because perfumes are indoor smells that were compared to cigarettes. Your point about pollution is off-topic, because it doesn't affect the passengers of the ship during the cruise.

Also the study you mentioned doesn't focus on perfumes alone, but includes all fragrances, which includes room fresheners, cleaning products, etc.

2 hours ago, Casino Comp Chick said:

No it doesn’t wear off, it’s just that people body odor takes over at that point.

🤥

It does wear off, unless you're right next to the person, you won't smell it the next day, and it doesn't make carpet, furniture, and everything else stink.

3 minutes ago, AmazedByCruising said:

 

I just tried to calculate C02. There are only so many C-atoms that fit in a gallon of carbon based fuel, and that's how much CO2 molecules a ship can make from it. The amount of sulfur doesn't matter. 

I believe Relax@Sea was referring to this article.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2016/may/21/the-worlds-largest-cruise-ship-and-its-supersized-pollution-problem

Not really relevant to this discussion though.

3 hours ago, Relax@Sea said:

Google this and you can read for yourself "cruise ship emissions". Note: I am not for or against this topic but try to be informed.

One ship equals:

CO2

83,676m cars

Sulphur dioxide

1.05m cars

Particle emissions

421,153 cars

NOx

83,678 cars

 

I believe you're completely off topic. We're not discussing pollution caused by ships, but rather, the air you breathe during the cruise. If you want to start a topic about pollution, and how we shouldn't support the cruise industry because it's bad for environment, I am sure that would be an interesting discussion, but a different one.

47 minutes ago, susan1957 said:

I don't smoke, however I am VERY sensitive to perfumes, body lotions, and men's aftershave etc.  Do you think people would stop wearing these....hmmm. I doubt it....I think there should be 1 designated outdoor area on the ship for smoking....absolutely non indoors, ie casino, bars etc. 

 

Never smelled a perfume from 20 meters away, or even 10 meters, and even so, perfumes are designed to smell pleasant, and aren't associated with any health risks. One cigarette can pollute a huge room with smell, not only that, cigarette smell just gets worse over time, and is virtually impossible to get rid of without replacing carpet/furniture, whereas perfumes wear off within a day or so.

15 hours ago, Oceangal711 said:

while passengers hope to escape the dirty air of cities for some fresh sea air, the investigation found cruise ships are having a negative impact on the environment. One cruise ship can emit as much particulate matter as a million cars in a day. Levels of pollution on some cruise ships' decks are worse than in the world's most polluted cities. Sorry not so fresh or clean anywhere on a cruise.

Cite source please, I am pretty sure it doesn't apply to newer/larger ships. I am very sensitive to smells/pollution and I didn't notice any issues on ships I've been on (NCL Escape, NCL Gem, RC Anthem). The exhaust is very high above top deck and, unless there is a strong downdraft (which is almost never), it will never get to the top deck, not to mention lower balcony decks. On the last ship, Escape, I actually noticed that I practically couldn't see the exhaust when we were cruising at top speed. The air was always fresh on our balcony (except for those times when our neighbors decided to smoke). The deck was a different story, I often smelled smoke, even in the kids pool/play area, because of where the smoke areas were setup. Smoke areas should either be enclosed with exhaust released high above deck, or at the aft of the ship, since wind is almost always blowing if aft direction.

2 hours ago, Two Wheels Only said:

 

How many thousands of non-smokers need to die from secondhand smoke for it to be important?

I think there is no reason to derail this thread with a health debate. If you booked a hotel for your vacation, and it turns out it's next to a smelly garbage dump, no one expects you to justify your displeasure by proving that it's a health hazard.

1 minute ago, Phaedrus78 said:

"I'm sorry sir, but the biopsy shows you have stage 4 lung cancer."

 

"Damn!  If only I hadn't had to walk past that casino on the cruise ship!"

 

I'm not a doctor, but I feel like that if the secondhand smoke from someone having a cigarette on their balcony causes you to get cancer or emphysema, you might have been fairly predisposed to those conditions anyway.

You're right, if you're just walking through the casino once in a while, it's not a big deal from health perspective. However, the smell is absolutely revolting to many people, in addition, many have health issues and can become physically ill if they are exposed to second-hand smoke. You are effectively banning those people from using large areas of the ship, and on some ships, those areas include restaurants and entertainment which is a big part of what you pay for when you go on a cruise. There are already examples of ships/cruise lines (Bliss, Celebrity X ships, etc.) that manage this issue better, and hopefully we'll see more positive changes in the future.

35 minutes ago, jpcdds6 said:

I think 5:45am chair hogs, obnoxious passengers in the theater, bars and restaurants, unruly kids running amok with no parental supervision, enormous tour groups that basically do what they wish onboard without fear, cancelled itineraries, no Maine lobster,  complaining passengers, and getting into port after Anthem of the Seas, more of a nuisance.

There are lots of nuisances, that's true, but in my limited experience (3 cruises), I didn't really have any significant problems with any of these. Smoking was the only problem I couldn't get away from, even in my cabin.

This thread has degenerated a bit into anti-smoking thread, which wasn't the point. Although I'd gladly pay 15% premium to sail on a smoke-free ship, until that happens, I think it's totally possible to design ships where smokers can enjoy themselves without making others' lives miserable.

52 minutes ago, StolidCruiser said:

 

Quite the resume.

 

 

So am I.

 

 

So essentially there is not proven technology to detect cigarette smoke in high-wind outdoor conditions.  Seems like technology ripe for you to develop a low-cost highly-effective solution you can market to the cruise lines and make yourself a ton of money.

With regards to the resume, I am sorry I don't the the necessary cruise "experience" to post on these forums, or that I forgot to salute your presence.

I don't think there is a ton of money in this particular application, otherwise the solution would already exist, but, you're right, sensor networks in general will be a huge industry soon.

31 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Of course there is a larger problem as you say. I've worked on offshore drilling vessels where gas detectors are integral to safety onboard.  These required renewal constantly due to the corrosive nature of the maritime environment.  If there were sufficiently robust smoke detectors for fire detection on outdoors ship's areas, SOLAS would have required them years ago.

If it were up to me, I'd just send a drone out around the ship at random times, and change the policy to kick those who smoke on balcony off the ship at next port. I think that solution would work in most cases. Way cheaper than sensors or dealing with grumpy customers, and it's fun too 🙂

5 minutes ago, Fincherson said:

"Largest areas set aside for smokers." Mmm no.

 

I'm not a smoker but I find the way my fellow non-smokers (on CC) clutch their pearls over small outdoor smoking areas to waffle between irritating and downright hysterical. More than once I've seen women proclaim they had to miss work for WEEKS after their cruise because of the occasional wiff of smoke. Good lord it's bordering on obnoxious. I don't like the smell of smoke either and I think they should put all smokers in one area in the back that is for smokers only and call it a day. Keep it all outside and definitely not around the pool/kids but for crying out loud can we stop whining about it? 

What's the difference between sharing opinion and whining? Are you whining about others whining? I think it's a legitimate concern. Often times we had to take the long route just to avoid the casino and surrounding areas, because my kids had to hold their nose to walk through there (and it was because they found the smell disgusting, not because I told them to). It's not occasional, it's practically unavoidable.

1 minute ago, Phaedrus78 said:

On behalf of those who enjoy an occasional cigarette along with some adult beverages, we apologize for existing.  

 

I'm not advocating breaking the rules, but for those advocating banning smoking on the ships entirely, I understand.  It's just like a hotel or a restaurant, I'll step outside... oh, wait.

 

Well surely we can treat it just like an airplane flight... that lasts for 10 days.  

You should be able to enjoy it, but not to force others to "enjoy" it as well.

1 minute ago, chengkp75 said:

And do these air pollution montors work while moving, and in high winds?  Can they detect a single cigarette smoke in a windy condition?  Most of these monitor particulate smoke, which would not normally be able to be collected from a detector on the overhead of a balcony.  Please give an example of a sensor that would work in a ship's balcony environment that could detect a single cigarette, as I'm genuinely interested to see if the technology is present.

Smoke definitely gets to the overhead of the balcony, if not the immediate balcony, then the next balcony. In general, if you can smell it, sensors can pick it up. Wind reduces the concentration of smoke, but that just means your sensor needs to support these concentration levels. Given that cigarette smoke sensors can pickup second hand and third hand smoke levels, it's not an issue. If you're interested in learning more about cigarette smoke sensors, you can Google "cigarette smoke sensor". Most commercial solutions are designed for indoors, but technology they use can operate in high levels of humidity and wide temperature range, so it's not an issue to adopt them for balcony use.

22 minutes ago, valleyvillage said:

Just off the Bliss and had no smoke issues. I think the main reason for this is the casino has a sealed off smoking area and the rest of the casino is non-smoking. And it's a great ship!

Cool, thanks. I hear it's coming to the east coast soon, so maybe we'll give it a try.

16 minutes ago, amscene1 said:

Did this guy just say smoke detectors on  balcony’s?????

 

seems like he is the one smoking. 

How about you lay off personal insults, and do some research on outdoor air pollution monitors/sensors. You don't even need to install one on every balcony, since you can triangulate results from multiple monitors. For something as simple as smoke, you can rely on cheaper sensors, so it's not cost prohibitive. The technology is available, however, it's probably more cost effective for cruise lines to deal with a few complaints and lose a few customers. 

13 minutes ago, DirtyDawg said:

Simple solution, pick a cruise line with stricter smoking rules. 

Any specific suggestions from your experience? Thanks.

6 minutes ago, Two Wheels Only said:

Taking a picture (digital camera or phone) works pretty well. You can figure out the stateroom deck and number by counting relative to your location.

 

If needed, the staff might even print to photo to show the smoker who denies the act.

Smokers know this, so they stay within their balcony, even in case on our neighbor, I had to look in to know it was them (and I wasn't happy about having to do this, because it caused a minor confrontation, they basically told me to f-off). If it's not right next to you, you'll never know who is doing it. The wind is generally strong enough to spread the smoke, and blow it through the adjacent balconies.