harkinmr

On 6/26/2021 at 12:24 PM, Daniel A said:

I just watched a cruise related vlog where the vlogger says he got a response from RCL that the PAX were flown back into the U.S. via private aircraft.  Somehow it seems RCL has either gotten an exemption or just decided to face the consequences.  Apparently, RCI is being responsible to get the children all the way home so they can quarantine in their own residence.  The vlogger's main question which goes to the heart of the reason why I'm interested in this was "Will they do this for everybody?"

 

Were the parents of those kids so desperate to get onto the first cruise ship to sail again that they were willing to subject their children to this whole ordeal?  

The infected teens and their traveling party were flown home under a medical flight exemption to the negative test requirement. There is a lot of red tape and protocols that apply and the passengers must be flown to their domicile airport. They are not allowed to board any commercial transportation within the US. 
 

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/interim-guidance-transporting.html

The answer to the question “Will they do this for everybody” is NO.  This was done for the Millennium passengers and this family on Adventure but I would bet that RCG will get tired (financially and otherwise) of doing this in short order and local quarantine will be required until testing negative to fly home.  In the US the cruise lines will have to cover the expense of quarantine and/or private charter transportation, but are not obligated for sailings outside the US. Once the CSO is gone, so will those obligations be. 

The parents of these teens not only chose to subject their children to these circumstances, but perhaps other unvaccinated children on board to the infection. According to a number of reports from the Adventure sailings, masking of children is not being enforced by the cruise line and not being properly supervised by many parents either. Hence the positive tests. Protocols are changing on these cruises this week involving unvaccinated children and their families and hopefully mask enforcement is one of them. 
 

28 minutes ago, coffeebean said:

Is there any chance the wording of the law can be changed to reflect that volunteering the vaccine proof is not allowed either? I'm referring to an addendum to the law. Is that even a thing? Anyone know?

There is no way that type of change would be made. That would be an unconstitutional infringement on a person’s right to divulge private information about themselves. Even Florida is not going to go that far. Given that the Celebrity Edge sailed Saturday with 99% vaccinated passengers and voluntary submission of vaccination status without so much as a peep from anyone in the Governor’s office is a sure sign that the workaround is valid. Folks are stressing out about nothing. 

13 minutes ago, kearney said:

So you are on a fully vaccinated cruise and still wearing masks...despite CDC protocol allowing no masking or social distancing on 90%+ cruises. That is disappointing... and unexpected

The CDC has nothing to do with this cruise. The mask rules are driven by the Greek authorities according to all reports. 

2 minutes ago, delliemd said:

Shoudn't they check when you book your cruise instead of before you get to boarding if you are not vaccinated? 

I think they are doing that for any new bookings.  The email/phone call verifications are for anyone who booked before the procedure was put into place.  I would imagine for any new bookings they will verify vaccination status (yes/no) at booking, again at final payment, and then you will have to submit your proof at boarding.  They are not accepting photos or uploaded proof, only the actual document.

9 minutes ago, MamallamaAndDaddy said:

Yeah, I don't care for that treatment. But the CDC is forcing that issue, at least until July 18th.

 

Even IF the CSO disappears on July 18, you will likely see the same choice and process applied by Carnival.  Royal Caribbean isn't requiring vaccines, but they are "treating" unvaccinated passengers the same way.  The cruise lines will do what is required to safely sail whether under the CSO or not.

1 minute ago, Earthworm Jim said:

 

They aren't requiring vaccination though. Carnival is.

 

https://www.travelweekly.com/Cruise-Travel/Celebrity-Cruises-vax-policy-Florida

This article is inaccurate.  They are not "requiring" vaccinations, but are sailing at 95% vaccinated.  In order to do that they are asking passengers if they are vaccinated and willing to provide proof at boarding.  If yes, they go in the vaccinated pool of passengers.  If no, they go in the unvaccinated pool, which is capped at no more than 5% of total guests boarding.  Passengers provide proof of vaccination at the port to board as vaccinated.  If they do not provide the proof they are placed in the unvaccinated pool and can be denied boarding if that pool is full.  Carnival will use the same plan.  

1 minute ago, JamieLogical said:

 

I agree that Celebrity (and other lines) are unlikely to want to sail with a significant percentage of unvaccinated. It's clear that cruise passengers prefer full or near-full vaccination and it obviously would increase the risk of cases onboard to sail with more unvaccinated. However, the injunction against the CSO would mean that if they had to tick up to 5.1% or 5.2% unvaccinated, they would still keep the number of unvaccinated in a "safe" range without having to worry about being shut down by the CDC as they currently need to. I sincerely doubt that even with the CSO lifted, any of the cruise lines are going to sail wide open or not ask for vaccination status at all! They would risk a significant outbreak on the ship and a HUGE blow to the industry.

Which is ironic, because that was the whole point of the CSO.  Anyway, we will see what happens on or before July 18th.  Still could be a replacement order or appeal.  Who knows.

18 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

Oh, I agree. It is a tight line to walk. If the injunction against the CSO holds up, it will only be a potential issue for a couple of weeks. At that point, even if Celebrity wants to keep the 95% policy in place, they will have much more flexibility. If it turns out that at the pier something like 7% of unvaccinated show up instead of 5%, not a huge deal. It's only when they are trying to balance the CDC requirements with the Florida law that it's a significant challenge. After July 18, it may no longer be quite so tricky.

That's assuming they would even want to sail with a larger percentage of unvaccinated passengers.  I don't think they do.  They need to twist themselves into knots in order to comply with Florida law.  It's pretty clear that the additional protocols applied by Celebrity (and RCI for their sailings) are intended to discourage rather than encourage unvaccinated adult passengers.  Word from RCI this morning is that the casino and spa on their sailings will be vaccinated passengers only.  Now THAT sends a message.

2 hours ago, Earthworm Jim said:

I fear it's still going to end up in court. The wording of the Florida law says businesses operating in Florida can't require the it, and Florida could argue Carnival is still operating in Florida and still requiring it, even if the confirmation is being done over the internet.

 

I just hope cruising can resume without this causing a problem, one way or another.

Well, it's happening already.  Celebrity Edge departs today from FLL with a 95% vaccinated passenger requirement.  Not a peep from Florida to stop it based on proof of vaccine.  They have found a workaround and Carnival will just use the same approach.

1 minute ago, JamieLogical said:

 

With the numbers I quoted above, it seems that the Edge should have enough availability in the 5% bucket to accommodate any who end up not providing proof at the pier. Currently, only 2% of the scheduled passengers are known to be unvaccinated, which means there is 3% wiggle room.

Agreed.  But I'm not sure that I would take that chance and frankly, if I were the cruise line, I would be concerned about anyone who would say they were vaccinated by phone or email and then show up intent on boarding without the required proof. That says a lot about a person and I think would speak to their willingness to comply with the unvaccinated passenger protocols onboard.  JMO.

36 minutes ago, JamieLogical said:

 

The calls emails are asking if people are vaccinated and if they will be willing to volunteer proof of vaccination at the pier. Those who are unwilling to volunteer proof will still be allowed to board. The Florida law says that companies cannot *require* proof of vaccination and cannot deny services to people who do not provide proof. In the case of Celebrity, those who do not volunteer their vaccination status will be assumed to be unvaccinated and will be required to undergo frequent COVID testing at their own expense, will be required to wear masks at all times onboard when not in their stateroom or eating/drinking, and will have to stay in designated sections of public spaces (theater, MDR, etc.), but will not be denied service.

Those who are unwilling to volunteer proof at the port will only be allowed to board if there is available room in the 5% unvaccinated pool.  Otherwise, they would be denied boarding.  The calls/emails sent out by Celebrity in advance of sailing will allow them to keep their unvaccinated pool at 5% or less as required by the CDC.  Folks who say they are vaccinated and then refuse to show proof at the port may be out of luck.

7 minutes ago, bimmerboy said:

Agreed you have to be prepared. Originally the adults on our cruise did not have to have a negative COVID test until about 10-12 days ago; we were notified of the new requirement with rather short, but reasonable notice, and we all took our COVID tests on Tuesday. Having to take a COVID test and changing what you can do off the ship are two different fact patterns; hence I disagree with your penultimate sentence quoted above.

And if they eliminate a port stop all together, or change their mask protocols mid-cruise so that vaccinated passengers have to wear masks, or a whole host of other possible changes are you going to feel the same way?  The only constant in this new sailing environment is change. 

22 minutes ago, ReneeFLL said:

They should have started this from the beginning. More parents might have not booked and some are probably already in the Bahamas.

Stuff like this is going to happen regularly and people need to be prepared. Look what happened 48 hours before the first Adventure cruise. Everyone (including vaccinated passengers) were told they would be tested at the port. Anybody not willing to accept last minute changes shouldn’t be sailing. It is what it is and there will be more changes coming I’m sure. 

1 minute ago, Evilgrin72 said:

 

That worked.  It also has much more clear wording on what we're discussing if you click on the "cruises out of Miami" link..

 

When indoors, CDC guidelines require all guests 2 and older to wear masks unless they are actively eating or drinking. The CDC does make allowances for guests to remove their masks in venues and events dedicated to fully vaccinated parties. Since so many of our guests are vaccinated, you’ll find plenty of these opportunities.

 

Masks are not required in your stateroom when you are with your traveling party, outside on the open decks, or at Perfect Day at CocoCay, unless in a crowded setting. In the coming days, we are expecting updated guidance from the CDC on mask policies for vaccinated guests in shared spaces and will update you at that time.

 

I think that settles the discussion around interpretation of the unclear wording posted earlier.  If you're outside and not in a "crowded setting," if you're in your stateroom, if you're actively eating (i.e. dining room,) or if you're vaccinated AND in a venue designated for vaccinated guests only, you don't have to wear a mask.  If none of the above applies, you're expected to wear one.  For anyone boarding unvaccinated, it looks like you're staring down the barrel of a severely reduced number of places to hang out, AND a requirement to wear a mask while you're in them.  I wouldn't expect anything but that unless you want to be disappointed.  However, they do say that updated guidance from the CDC is coming, so it's entirely possible that may change before you board.  For me, I'm not booking squat until I have specifics on what venues require masks, what venues are designated vax-only, etc.  YMMV.

I agree with your interpretation and the language you quote backs that up. No one should go on one of these cruises believing that protocols won’t be enforced because that will surely lead to frustration or disappointment, or both. Nor should anyone expect that the rules will change quickly. They may or they may not. “Be prepared “ as you say. 

2 hours ago, Evilgrin72 said:

 

That link takes you to a page that no longer exists, apparently.  It flashes for a second and then gives you an "Oops" message. 

Try this link.  It has protocols for all RCI cruise port locations. Nassau, Galveston, Seattle, Florida and Cyprus. 
 

https://www.royalcaribbean.com/the-healthy-sail-center

11 minutes ago, AF-1 said:

Royal has a contract with Netjets;  they have access to different size jets in the fleet; so it didn't cost that much to fly them to Miami or FLL

Don’t know where the passengers were from, but an “exempted” private flight to carry a COVID positive passenger back to the US would not be cheap. In addition, they would have to be transported to their domicile, not dumped at an international airport in Miami or FLL.  

15 minutes ago, asalligo said:

We will see who is right. I lay my money on someone fully vaccinated dying from an infection on a cruise soon. Will you then say they must not have been fully vaccinated? 

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/25/covid-breakthrough-cases-cdc-says-more-than-4100-people-have-been-hospitalized-or-died-after-vaccination.html

I am aware of the number of hospitalizations/deaths.  The CDC link I included in my post is where CNBC got its data.  Out of over 150,000,000 fully vaccinated persons, there have been just over 4100 hospitalizations and about 750 deaths. There is virtually a 0% chance for any fully vaccinated person dying from COVID if infected on a cruise ship.  I will lay my money on no vaccinated cruiser even being severely ill or hospitalized, never mind dying.  Again, the best bet for any cruise line right now is to have a fully vaccinated passenger cohort.

8 minutes ago, Iamcruzin said:

Celebrity who is under the same umbrella as Royal Caribbean is also sailing 100% vaccinated out of Florida.

Not 100%, but very close to it. At least 95% fully vaccinated. And they are doing it by voluntary submission of vaccine status at boarding. First cruise is on Saturday. No objection from Florida. They got around the law and NCL can do the same. 

1 hour ago, Fredric22 said:

Celebrity made it seem like this was their decision based on local vaccination rates and COVID-19 numbers. But, since Adventure has been going there without restrictions, it still doesn't make much sense. 

Perhaps the Adventure positive cases prompted this decision as others have suggested.  I would imagine Adventure’s Cozumel port stop will be changed for their next sailing. Celebrity is not going to directly connect the dots in an announcement, but coupled with Mexico’s infection/vaccination statistics it gives them cover. There is not much anyone can do to change the policy. Things are fluid and lots of things will continue to change in the restart. 

5 minutes ago, Susanb10567 said:

That’s disappointing that protocols for unvaccinated passengers were not being followed. You would think at the beginning they would have been on top of it. 

You would think. My guess is they will be now.  And certainly out of US ports. 

1 hour ago, graphicguy said:

Celebrity told me directly (pre-cruise support) yesterday the EDGE will sail AT LEAST 95% vaccinated on my 7/31 cruise.  Even their HEALTHY AT SEA PROTOCOLS says so on their web site says so.

 

so, where did this story originate from?

It gets picked up on the wire and copied from one news agency to another. My guess is USA Today was the initial culprit. After that it was just repeated over and over again. 

55 minutes ago, sandebeach said:

This could be part of the CDC and cruise lines agreements and protocols for heath and port agreements, which would differ from other modes of transportation. I don't think M. Bayley would lie on social media. 

I did not say he lied. I said a negative test was required to reenter the US even on a private charter flight.  It is.  Apparently positive COVID cases can be transported back into the US on private “medical” flights under specific circumstances and conditions designated by the CDC. Smokeybandit linked the provisions above.  Is RCI going to go through this bureaucratic process and (significant) expense for each positive case on future cruises?  I think this will wear thin after a while and folks will be left quarantining until they test positive.  JMO.  

8 minutes ago, sandebeach said:

Apparently you can fly by private plane back to the US. From M. Bayley's social media post:

Michael Bayley 2h  · 

Today, two kids sailing on Adventure of the Seas tested positive for COVID after routine testing required before returning home. �

Both guests, under the age of 16 and unvaccinated, were immediately quarantined. One guest is asymptomatic, and the other guest is experiencing mild symptoms.��Those in their immediate travel party are vaccinated and have tested negative. All close contacts were quickly identified and tested. All are vaccinated and tested negative.

The guests and their travel party disembarked today in Freeport, The Bahamas and are on their way home to Florida. (Private flight arranged by RCL)

Ninety-two percent of our guests on Adventure are fully vaccinated and the remaining 8% are under 16 years old. One hundred percent of our crew are fully vaccinated."

Private flight or otherwise you need a negative test to fly back to the US. My husband flies for a private charter company and he has to verify negative tests to bring any passenger back to the US.  

1 hour ago, Sunshine3601 said:

I guess Royal chartered a flight home for the family(families).     That's not cheap!

Chartered flights still need a negative test to fly back. Not sure how they managed that. 

1 hour ago, sandebeach said:

Just read on a blog from the ship that the teens were unvaccinated; one is asymptomatic and one has mild symptoms. The vaccinated parents tested negative. Teens and parents disembarked at Freeport, to return home to Florida. All contacts tested and negative. 

How are they returning to the US without negative tests?  Can’t fly in without them.  Assuming they are quarantining in Bahamas until kids test negative.