Xport

Just completed purchase of my Land Discoveries [eight of them!] for the first leg of my back-to-back sailings [including the one for which you so graciously interceded on my behalf] as well as the "Nights In Cool Places: Live Music At The Rio Scenarium" on our turn-around evening...

Azamara will, I suspect, be thrilled by my patronage just as I'm thrilled to be getting the experiences I want... That said, my credit card will still be cooling down hours from now!

I'll work excursions for the 19 February sailing once those offerings are complete...

Once again, sincerest thanks!

I would rather Azamara were a little more communicative in their shareholder reponses rather than the generic knock back letter- the problem is the team who respond are an RCI team and treat all guests the same way. I have had issues trying to get information from them when OBC is denied.

Is handled by RCCL Investor Relations--as a corporation-wide function across the family of brands rather than on a divisional/business unit basis--and is, to the best of my knowledge, centralized at Corporate Headquarters in Miami...

Though I cannot assure you a more complete response to inquiries, I've had success in getting clarification of an unexpected decision by sending an e-mail to shareholderbenefit@rccl.com

Practices may differ by country but I am unaware of any US Travel Agent who would necessarily know--other than for perhaps a frequent, long-term client--whether or not one is a shareowner and/or how a specific discount, promotion, or fare category [they change constantly] might/might not influence eligibility for the shareholder benefit... Here, the application and its adjudication is between the guest and the cruise line's parent company...

Like you, I haven't qualified for a shareowner benefit in years...

Though I did not have opportunity to review the Land Discovery offerings for Journey’s 7 February and 19 February sailings as quickly as I expected—it’s been hectic—I’ve just done so as promised last week… Let me start by saying that many of my personal concerns have been alleviated thanks to your intercession—in large part, I know exactly what I’ll be doing—but regret to report that there are still disconnects that to my mind represent errors and/or present opportunity for clearer communication… And then, as reported earlier, there are still a few ports for which no Land Discovery offerings have been posted…

I hope the following reflects my observations in a cogent way; here goes…

• Three tours are listed via the 7 February “drop-down list”—that’s our embarkation day—that are being staged on other days and are properly listed on the “drop-down lists” for both those days [16 and 17 February]… I’ve never seen Azamara, Celebrity or Royal Caribbean list tour opportunities on a preview basis in such a manner and, to my mind, the practice is at best duplicative and, at worst, could prompt confusion… I can’t imagine that either is Azamara’s intent…

o Those three tours are RJ-42 [best of Rio with Pier Drop-Off], RJ-43 [sugarloaf & City Sights], and RJ-44 [Corcovado & Rio’s Beaches]…

• There is a fourth excursion—RJ-71 [best of Rio with Airport Drop-Off] that is listed as being offered via the 7 February “drop” down list… The 7 February offering makes no sense in the context of being offered on our embarkation day; if the tour is being offered on 7 February, it should be associated with Journey’s prior [27 January] sailing as a disembarkation day offering… The 19 February offering is an appropriate disembarkation day offering for some guests on our sailing but, as was true above in terms of duplication/potential confusion, is already more properly offered via the 19 February “drop-down list” [but so is the inappropriate 7 March offering!] for this voyage…

• Through your intercession and favorable consideration from the Shore Ex Team, RJ-A3 [best of Rio with Pier Drop-Off for In-Transit Guests] has been correctly added as an offering on 19 February… You can be absolutely sure that I’ll be booking within the next few days! On behalf of all consecutive cruisers, sincerest thanks again!

• Shore Ex has also corrected the association of RJ-95 [Rio By Night With Show At Plataforma Show House] so that it now appears as a post-dinner option for those embarking on 19 February rather than as an option—12+ hours after disembarkation—for those solely on the 7 February sailing [same issue as you had corrected months ago relative to the Nights In Cool Places/ Scenarium excursion… Now I just need to decide which of the two I want to do!

• There is one tour listed via the 19 February “drop-down list”—for those embarking that day; it’s turn-around—that appears to be offered on both 19 and 20 February but that is only being staged on 20 February and is properly listed on the “drop-down list” for that day]… Specifically, that Land Discovery is RJ-92 [Panoramic Rio]… Once again, I’ve never seen Azamara, Celebrity or Royal Caribbean list tour opportunities on a preview basis in such a manner and, to my mind, the practice is at best duplicative and, at worst, could prompt confusion… I can’t imagine that either is Azamara’s intent…

Since I tend to doubt that the Shore Ex Team is compensated based upon the number of tours posted to the website, I can only conclude that someone got a bit carried away with “cut and paste” and failed to proofread… I appreciate your understanding that the vast majority of my observations have nothing to do with me personally—for those that have materialized, I am truly grateful—but that the benefits associated with correction rather accrue to Azamara… Not everyone has fully understood the spirit of my requests and efforts in that context; frankly, those posts came across as placating and dismissive…

And finally, there’s this… As noted earlier, no Land Discovery opportunities have been posted for our port calls at Devil’s Island, French Guiana [1 March] or, other than for the AzAmazing Evening, at Bridgetown, Barbados [we arrive at 9:00 AM pm on 3 March and depart at 10:00 PM on 4 March]… The Barbados situation particularly astounds me as Bridgetown is a frequent seasonal port for Celebrity Eclipse, for Celebrity Equinox, for Celebrity Summit, and—I suspect—for Royal Caribbean; Shore Ex can’t be lacking for experience/resources there…

Sorry that the format of this post is not what I'd hoped for in terms of readability... Cruise Critic and my ISP don't always see eye-to-eye!

One good turn deserves another… I’m hopeful that you and Azamara have found/find my observations to be constructive and helpful…

Hi Celebrity,

 

I'd like to ask about Captains Club point promotions. When you offer them, you receive 25 points, and 50 points when booking a Suite. If I were to book as a Solo, would I then receive double on the promo points ?

Thought that this was a great question when you raised/discussed it back in July but didn't recall--and looking back, I was correct--that Celebrity ever responded...

While waiting [and waiting] to speak with a Captain's Club Rep this evening in an entirely different context--they've suddenly started to send snail mail to one or the other of my primary or secondary addresses with no apparent pattern--I decided to ask the follow-up question too as I have a sailing next summer that includes the Bonus Points promo...

Bonus Cruise points are not being doubled for solos paying the 200% single supplement though they are awarded per person to two [and perhaps more; didn't ask] sharing a cabin... Seems inconsistent with the spirit of Mr. Bayley's July announcement about the "Double Up" and--though not an enormous deal; five more nights in an AquaClass or Concierge Class cabin to get to the next membership tier--the response [delivered professionally and with understanding] struck me as being equally trivial from Celebrity's perspective...

Perhaps--and just perhaps--I'll "Ask Michael" if/when time allows...

Just to close the loop...

Hello Xport (post #114), et.al. ~ you (all of you!) continue to impress me with the thought you put into your responses.

I remain 100% confident in the future of Azamara Club Cruises and our dedication to our customers, ships and employees ashore and at sea.

As for yours, and the multitude of other criticisms of the new LCV program, there will no doubt be some fine-tuning to the program in the months to come. You can rest assured your comments are not falling on deaf ears.

For acknowledging that the LCV redesign as revealed last week may be up for some reconsideration... My initial reactions as to how the changes impact me personally were quickly replaced by personal curiosity as to why Azamara chose to take the drastic actions they did and couldn't help but induce some speculation surrounding the very unusual Corporate behavior...

My only hope is that Azamara is mindful that time is of the essence in terms of any fine-tuning that might occur with respect to LCV given that the new program is to take effect 1 January 2015... At the present time, the only "improved" loyalty benefit I accrued for having sailed Azamara--and it was otherwise a wonderful experience--for 28 days during 2014 [which would have been 42 days had Journey not unfortunately become disabled in Tokyo] is a net reduction in my Cruise Point accrual--despite having attained Discover + membership at the time of sailing--for the pleasure! Azamara credits 3 Points per day for a balcony cabin during 2014; that will increase to 5 per day--as it always should have been on a comparative basis to Celebrity's accrual rates for equivalent or lesser spend [the subject was discussed at length here early this year; it seems that Azamara listened but not quickly/not before it adversely affected some without intent--it's already covered in the revised program's Terms & Conditions--to remediate]... Sounds trivial--perhaps it is--but I've long understood that those 56 Cruise Points further delayed and added expense to my journey toward reaching Zenith level on Celebrity and Discoverer Platinum level on Azamara! Last week's "big reveal" merely reminded me of that fact...

Thanks, once again, for your advocacy in bringing our observations forward for a hearing... I'm truly sorry that Azamara has placed you in so unenviable a position but am hard-pressed as to how they might have anticipated a different reaction from those with an Azamara/Celebrity track record...

Do know that, regardless of how this plays out from a personal perspective [business is--mutually--business; we all view such things differently], I root for the robust future of Azamara, its exceptional onboard Team of Officers and crew, and its very allegiant following... No threats/no promises; I hope to have reason to be among them...

Do I see a pattern? Every time there's a program change that dissatisfies some in the community the topic of survival comes back to the top of the list.

 

Be assured, as I am from my conversations with Larry this week, that Azamara Club Cruises is stronger than ever. Here are some facts:

 

We have hit or exceeded budget in each quarter.

We have the best occupancy in the company's history.

We continue to have excellent guest scores in rating the crew and product.

Our repeat guest numbers have never been higher.

Our advanced bookings for 2015 are the best we have ever seen.

You, our cruise critic readers voted us the best ships in the small category several years in a row.

 

Hopefully you will do so again next year!

I’m sure you recognize how much I value your contributions to this forum [i happen to think that having a participative Chief Blogging Officer is a “Best Practice” innovation from Azamara that other cruise lines ought embrace] and how much I personally appreciate the consideration/advocacy you’ve extended to me—and others—in the context of the Land Discovery issues surrounding next year’s Rio sailings… I’ve said so many times… And so, I’ll assume that the question that you pose above is based upon a genuine desire to know what some people—I don’t claim to speak for all—are thinking…

First, some historical perspective…

Dan Hanrahan created full reciprocity between Celebrity and Azamara when Azamara was created in May 2007 and he was tapped to serve as leader of both until Larry was hired three years later to lead Azamara… Dan left RCCL/Celebrity—seemingly for greener pastures—in July 2012…

The hope--apparently successful given the large number of Azamara guests with substantial Celebrity cruise histories--was that guests would "move over/move up/graduate" to their boutique, usually higher priced line but not create perceived impediments to sailing both interchangeably... The lines still—I now suspect to Azamara's consternation; they'd have otherwise had no reason to add loyalty tiers when Celebrity changed Captain's Club last November if they then had an inkling as to how the revised LCV might evolve—share a loyalty accounting system…

I'm sure it all seemed like a good idea at the time... And certainly, Azamara has benefited richly—as have guests—from the fully reciprocal/cross-accumulating loyalty scheme over the past 7+ years...

While it’s difficult not to assess the Le Club Voyage changes through other than a personal prism, there are others who are similarly situated—despite our differing circumstances—and whose thinking may well replicate mine among those who have been extremely loyal to the Celebrity and Azamara brands… It is in that illustrative spirit only—I seek no personal empathy—that I share my observations…

By next July, I'll be 80 cruise nights shy of reaching Zenith membership in Captain's Club if I sail exclusively with Celebrity in AquaClass or Concierge Class [as I do] or 160—generally far more expensive—nights shy of reaching Discover Platinum membership in LCV if I sail exclusively with Azamara in a balcony cabin [as I do] as Azamara has not followed the Royal Caribbean and Celebrity leads in doubling Cruise Points for solos sailing at 100% supplement... Reduced single supplements have always been rare on Celebrity and Azamara has significantly reduced its commitment to the “Savings for Singles” program that surely helped fill Journey and Quest during more challenging economic times…

At this point, it is statistically impossible for me to earn "Free Nights" with Azamara—the signature and only truly valuable benefit of the revised program given my substantial Celebrity history and Azamara's requirement that 50% or more of Cruise Points must have been earned with Azamara for “Free Nights” to be awarded... The upsell benefit [and that's really what it is] based upon loyalty is a nice idea [at least it does away with the mystique as to how complimentary upgrades have been granted] but it is—at best—a "lightning strike" in the odd event it occurs but is surely not something reliable/bankable…

At my current Elite+/Discoverer+ loyalty level, tangible benefits—such as laundry and internet now available to me—will, given current knowledge, continue to be provided when I sail with Celebrity but be replaced with a “wallet reach” when sailing with Azamara after 1 January 2015… If/when I get to the Zenith/Discoverer Plus membership tier as my sailing pattern suggests I will [as I’m sure you understand from my comments above, I’d be foolish not to concentrate my future patronage with Celebrity], the dichotomy becomes even more glaring… Under current Captain’s Club provisions, loyalty benefit increases are quantum once one reaches Zenith with Celebrity [among the most notable are 1600 internet minutes, unlimited laundry, a premium beverage package, and a complimentary seven night Caribbean or Bermuda cruise; there are others] but, ironically, sailing with Azamara at Discoverer Platinum tier still provides nothing more than a continued “wallet reach” for those—like me—who have proven to be most allegiant to the Royal Caribbean family of brands… One ought not to sail for loyalty benefits but I must admit that they’ve served as a tie-breaker for me when evaluating alternative cruise opportunities; the value is real and the inferred recognition/appreciation for patronage is nice… And similarly—with Zenith now within reach for me—that consideration will also surely serve as a tie-breaker in making my future cruise plans; I’d be foolish not to finish the journey—it’s never been a mission—at this juncture with so much at stake… My behaviors are exactly those that loyalty programs are intended to foster… And so, Azamara’s recent actions—an entity doesn’t typically drive away its existing current [one might say “best”] and likely future customers while nurturing new ones to perhaps perpetuate the brand—are particularly counterintuitive/perplexing to many…

I’ll accept Larry’s metrics in their most positive light in terms of financial vitality but, fact is, we all understand that [a] it’s possible to exceed budget if a loss isn’t as severe as has been forecast and that an entity doesn’t easily achieve profitability—there is a crossover point—by selling more of what might be a losing proposition until one reaches the right combination of pricing, expense and load levels… That said, financial viability doesn’t necessarily equate to viability… There are also synergy considerations as to whether or not Azamara “fits” into Royal Caribbean’s long-term strategic vision [which, time and again, has wavered wildly with respect to Azamara if one were to judge based upon Azamara’s many iterations] given that the Corporation’s roots are mass market, its most senior leadership—aside from Larry—grew up in, or evolved over time, in serving the mass market, and the mass market operations contribute—by far—most significantly to “big Royal’s” bottom line… And then, there may not be an understanding or tolerance for the fact that boutique operations often require a disproportionate allocation of shared but rationed resources by the very nature of their product and the expectations of their clientele… Even “doers” come to understand that there is more potential glory/recognition/impact—to use an example near/dear to my heart—in tweaking an existing Shore Ex offering available to tens of thousands of guests each year by negotiating a dollar/two out of tour operator cost and/or assessing a price increase to guests than there is in developing Land Discovery opportunities for, at best, a few hundred guests at an esoteric port that Azamara may never—or seldom—visit again… I have a sense that the same dynamic may be in play with respect to IT; it’s no mystery to me as to why Royal Caribbean’s systems/web operations seem to be far better/friendlier than those supporting Celebrity and Azamara and that Celebrity’s IT operations are, in turn [though goodness knows they need help too], a bit better than those supporting Azamara; it’s all about impact… Sometimes major corporations [i worked for one for 32 years and served as leader of a “shared services” overhead operation during many of those years] shed financially viable operations by spin-off [the revised LVC program looks like something one might design if starting anew in a conservative way; a thriving going concern with enduring parentage would ostensibly do more rather than less], by sale [slashing loyalty spend reduces the associated liability and could improve price], by joint venture [a technique often used to share required infrastructure/developmental investment; again, one wouldn’t want to encumber a fledgling marriage], and, if all else fails, even by shut-down—when contribution is comparatively minor in the bigger picture and/or the whole effort/risk seems disproportionate/onerous relative to the possible reward…

I’d love to see a robust Azamara… The unique itineraries are intriguing to a frequent and now-seasoned traveler like me, the destination immersion concept [which needs minor tweaking in terms of relevant enrichment opportunities] is appealing, and the onboard experience is impeccable thanks to exceptional, engaged crew/officers [though some of the inclusives—most significantly, the alcohol—are lost on me]… Landside—far beyond the recent Shore Ex episode—is often frustrating in the context of total experience and, to my mind has long needed work… But I’m afraid that the LCV revisions are the icing on my cake/tipping point…

Call me cynical [i’ve been called worse!] but I can’t help but think that the drastic [and for some, insulting] LCV changes—especially when considered in tandem with Celebrity’s current initiative to enhance their suite offering so as to create an experience more akin to that provided by Azamara; I don’t think the two actions are necessarily coincidental—are designed to redirect customers with proven faithfulness/reliable spend back to Celebrity and “lock them in” [keeping the business in the current family] should Azamara’s viability—for whatever reason; it may well be synergy—be called to ultimate question in the future and guests may have no choice but to seek their cruise opportunities elsewhere…

I’ve given this dynamic—fascinating from a distance; I use other adjectives when I consider it from a personal perspective—a whole lot of thought but, at the end of the day, these are just my thoughts; I’ll gladly be proven wrong… Please accept them in the spirit intended…

And perhaps my week! It's been another tough one...

You can be sure that I'll glance at the Land Discoveries for my cruises within the next few days, start doing my bookings late next week [i am currently at my home in Florida--called to jury duty and didn't want to be rescheduled so at to conflict with my travel--but spend summers in my native Northern New Jersey and am returning there, until November, on Tuesday after a busy weekend], report back on anything I see that still looks amiss, and most assuredly talk up the offering to other consecutive cruisers whom I might encounter on the Roll Call for the 7 February sailing [it's been deadly slow; thus far, there are three of us and the other couple isn't doing a back-to-back] and while aboard... Don't know if it's ever Azamara practice to do so but it might be helpful if Shore Ex were to promote the revised offering--with a secondary pier drop-off--via targeted e-mail to other consecutive cruisers and via onboard communication; surely, I can't be the only one with similar thoughts/interest...

Sincerest thanks for your advocacy and for Azamara's accommodation! I just hope--because I don't think my comments were always recognized as such by some--that there is understanding in Miami that the vast majority of my suggestions related to providing and selling cogent/doable offerings for Azamara's primary benefit...

I truly do appreciate your taking the time to understand the issues, for getting them to the right people with the capacity/interest to make things happen, and for your follow-up...

I am deeply appreciative for your intercession... Azamara should be too!

I understand/recognize the "upsell" concept and have never been confused about Azamara's fancy new name for them!

I do wish--and intended to say so earlier--that Azamara call them what they are and save us the charade of having to apply for them when they're so unlikely to occur... Instead, do as other cruise lines do and phone or e-mail eligible guests under a tight deadline for acceptance/payment--with a $398 offer based upon accumulated Cruise Points and original booking [rather than application] date if adhering to now published criteria and if touting the possibility as a loyalty benefit--if/when availability exists...

As conceptualized, the whole thing is cumbersome from a member perspective--it shouldn't saddle him/her with additional administration--and could lead to a very pleasant surprise rather than a source of disappointment if application is made unsuccessfully...

I think the reciprocity between Celebrity and Azamara is an issue, and perhaps this is the beginning of a decoupling.

To have suggested that the Celebrity/Azamara linkage is a source of the issue on this forum during the past several days...

Dan Hanrahan created full reciprocity between Celebrity and Azamara when Azamara was created in 2007 and he was tapped to serve as leader of both until Larry Pimentel was hired to lead Azamara [Dan has since left RCCL]...

The hope--apparently successful given the large number of Azamara guests with substantial Celebrity cruise histories--was that guests would "move over/move up" to their boutique, usually higher priced line but not create perceived impediments to sailing both interchangeably... The lines still--I now suspect to Azamara's consternation; they'd have otherwise had no reason to add loyalty tiers when Celebrity changed Captain's Club last November if they then had an inkling as to how the revised LCV might evolve--share a loyalty accounting system...

I'm sure it all seemed like a good idea at the time... And certainly, Azamara has benefited richly from the fully reciprocal/cross-accumulating loyalty scheme over the past 7+ years...

To my mind, it's not Celebrity but rather RCCL Corporate leadership and lack of consistent strategic vision/commitment to the brand... Azamara (smallest and of questionable profitability; even if profitable the contribution is chump change in a larger entity with mass market roots and a mass market mentality)--is furthest down the food chain in terms of securing rationed budget dollars/resources of an overhead nature operated under a "shared services" model... There is seemingly no recognition--and if there is, there is surely no love--for the concept that more specialized, boutique operations sometimes require more than their proportionate share of those resources [and Azamara may in fact be heavily subsidizing the larger Corporation] to be successful, while still being profitable, with the comparatively different guest demographic that is Azamara's mainstream...

I'll be Elite, not Select, so I believe I'll be the Discoverer tier.

And will be eligible for "Free Nights" upon reaching Discoverer + if 375 or more of your Cruise Points [50% or more] have been earned while sailing Azamara at the time you change membership tier, you have sailed Azamara within the prior three years, and you claim the "Free Nights" when booking within one year of having earned them...

For some [including those vectoring toward Zenith/Discoverer Platinum (twice as quickly on Celebrity than Azamara if sailing solo)], that "50%" condition is already statistically impossible with--as things stand now--no tangible reason to sail Azamara as a Zenith/ Discoverer Platinum member...

One comment overheard after the m&m was that cruise lines really hate the cruise critic forums. Why? We tell the truth. We praise the good. We complain about the bad. We exchange information. Our reviews are important. Thanks to all members for posting.

Roll Call members also sometimes band together to create private tour groups and share transfers... True or not, some cruise line employees perceive those actions as reducing cruise line revenues...

It is my understanding--no first-hand experience but I've read and heard about it from friends--that the practices are a real peeve with Princess [especially when cash changes hands during the Meet & Mingle events]... And there was a post to the Celebrity board not long ago that suggested that the matter caused a rant by a Cruise Director aboard Constellation [which a Celebrity rep who sometimes posts officially to that forum--as Joel does here--said was not at Corporate Leadership direction/would be remediated through coaching]...

I was on consecutive sailings aboard Journey--both with the same Cruise Director you mentioned in another post--in February... On one cruise, we introduced ourselves; on the second, we did not... But--whatever the reason for the difference aside perhaps for venue scheduling [in which case the M&M ought have been scheduled at a different place or at a different time]--we were never given the impression that Cruise Critic participation is unappreciated...

Does any one know what Azamara means by general marketplace promotions?

But I suspect that definition of the term "general marketplace promotions" itself and the opportunity to combine them with upgrade possibility are both very narrowly defined if defined and determined at all right now... Azamara's Reps may be winging it pending direction--wouldn't be the first time--and are perhaps unwittingly testing guest reaction based on supervisory instruction... It's pretty clear that the experience reported by Sparkle 123 above suggests that the terms as published are in conflict with how eligibility is now being interpreted ["general marketplace promotions" = "no promotions"]... Not a good sign in terms of providing a truly tangible benefit--by definition, it had very limited applicability at best; the practice diminishes that opportunity even more--to LCV members in any number in the near term and, unless current promotional practices are significantly curtailed and/or eliminated [yikes!], in the longer term...

Rarely is there an Azamara cruise that is not advertised --on their website and/or via their Travel Partners; to my mind, those are "general marketplace promotions"--as entailing some sort of cabin upgrade [which tend to cause availability of veranda category cabins to become sparse--if not totally sold out--prematurely] or reduced pricing scheme... And rarer--I would suggest--is the guest currently booked who didn't do so under one of those promos...

The few sailings--if any--that have never been part of such a promotion are those that have been selling briskly with, at best, limited cabin availability so as to provide remote chance of upgrade possibility in any case...

So yet again this exciting new benefit--unless brand leadership provides more reasonable interpretation of what constitutes a "general marketplace promotion" [their words] in the near term and/or changes promotional strategy in the future--seems to be specious [akin to promising "Free Days" to those for whom it is statistically impossible to earn them]...

The Emperor has new clothes! I have never contributed to the discussions on this forum as to Azamara's long-term viability--didn't even want to think about the prospect--but can't help but wonder if these actions aren't an attempt by RCCL Corporate Leadership to redirect established guests back to Celebrity [the primary source of Azamara's most loyal guest base] and "lock them in"--especially with X's new suite benefits which replicate many of the Azamara hallmarks--while still a voluntary alternative...

OK, now if I can upgrade from a Veranda to Club Continent on the first leg of my B2B then we will qualify for the new tier when the B2B is completed. There are no Club Continents available at this time but I thought how about getting on the waiting list for one should it become available. I could use the upgrade a level @ $199 each new LCV benefit so for $398 more I could get free nights even sooner.

But unless I've missed something, I am not sure that those upgraded as a result of a successful $398 upgrade bid will be awarded Cruise Points based upon the new, higher level of accommodation or the cabin category originally purchased... On some cruise lines, those who receive complimentary upgrades--and I realize that these are not complimentary but they're not full price either--do not earn additional loyalty recognition when "points" are determined--in total or in part--based upon stateroom level...

You need to go away and read the terms and conditions again, look at the tier point spread and understand how they can really materially affect the new benefits and if and when you get them. I really wish some on this board would quit offering their views of things that they have no experience or first hand knowledge about.l

I tried to make the same point in my earlier post here--excerpted from my post to the Azamara thread--to no apparent avail...

The most tangible of benefits under Azamara's new scheme--"Free Days"--is contingent upon having earned 50% of one's Cruise Points while sailing with Azamara... For those with significant sailing histories with Celebrity and who have already achieved Elite +/Discoverer + membership and for whom Zenith/Discoverer Plus membership is a possibility, it's statistically impossible to earn the "Free Day" benefit...

And as one Celebrity Zenith member [i doubt that anyone has earned LCV Discoverer Platinum status based upon sailing with Azamara solely; the line is too new] has already posted to the Azamara board, there is absolutely no incentive to sail with Azamara versus Celebrity; the related loss of benefits is monumental...

Reduced price upgrades to Azamara's Sky Suite equivalents [those who book them have no opportunity to upgrade as the top two suite categories are excluded] are awarded to those with the highest number of Cruise Points if available/if one applies for consideration... Out of curiosity, I'll give it a try for my B2B next February but don't hold out much hope... At present, there are five such staterooms available on my first sailing with lots of time to go and, on my second, all suite categories have been sold out for months... That situation may flex--but probably not materially given the investment in airfare and, perhaps, hotels [Rio, at Carnival, is tough/pricey and isn't planned at the last minute]--when final payments are due next month...

10% discount on select sailings? Well, those are likely the same seriously undersold trips as have been offered under their "Savings For Singles" promotion... That list--robust for 2014--has dwindled to nothing for 2015... And with Azamara's constant promotions and related [to put it kindly] "fluid" pricing [it fluctuates wildly based upon what's being offered at the time], I don't know how one would ever quantify the benefit value...

Onboard credit versus price reductions for booking aboard? Not enticing given Azamara's mostly inclusive nature... Discounts on certain shop purchases? Well one can seriously scan through the few--generally overpriced--shops in ten minutes and have time left over... Spa discounts? Okay for those who use the services but surely not a reason to remain faithful to Azamara...

I tend to do long consecutive sailings and, though I won't go broke paying for the laundry and internet I most assuredly need, I'll certainly miss what had been included and I can still get--at least for now--aboard Celebrity...

The Emperor has new clothes!

As Host Andy noted on the Azamara Board, this forum would go berserk if Celebrity were to introduce comparable changes...

There have been many threads on this board about cuts in quality and services but yet these people who complain are still loyal to the cruise line. If you are unhappy with the perks or cuts then it's time to give another line a try.

These same trends are prevalent on most forums... I tend to scan them all--especially Princess, HAL, and Cunard--and many of the comments there are as critical, if not more so, as those that are posted to the Celebrity Forum...

Some of it is understandable; times and economic conditions change and we must--like it or not--change with/adapt to them... Searching for the perfect premium mass market line these days might just be as fruitful as pursuit of the Holy Grail!

Oftentimes, the devil that one does know--no matter how much one might complain about them--is regarded as better/safer than the devil that one doesn't know... It's human nature...

About the same as an Elite+ making Zenith.

Following is excerpted from a post that I made this morning to one of the related threads on the Azamara forum... As noted here yesterday, the devil is in the detail...

-----

I had double the Cruise Points necessary to make Discoverer+/Elite+ upon conversion last November but still needed to double those again to make the Discoverer Platinum/Zenith membership levels... I thought that move up to likely be unattainable but I've continued to cruise and--with Celebrity now doing a "double up" on Cruise Points for solos paying the 100% single supplement--now see it as a possibility...

With my current travel plans, by this time next year I'll be about 80 cruise days away from Zenith/Discover Plus--sailing in the AquaClass or Concierge Class cabins I choose on Celebrity--but about 160 days away from the move up if I sail Azamara in a balcony stateroom as I have--and will again next February; I'd cancel were it not for the compensatory discounts I got when Journey became disabled in Tokyo so as to cause one sailing to be shortened and one to be fully cancelled--with them...

Even if I were to foolishly choose to sail with Azamara exclusively for twice the time--most often at higher prices while giving up my generous Elite+ benefits on Celebrity--to achieve the next level of membership, it is at this point statistically impossible for me to meet the requirement that 50% of Cruise Points be earned with Azamara to qualify for so-called "Free Days"... The alleged benefit is specious for many but especially so for those who have already shown very substantive allegiance to and have the most significant cruise histories with Azamara and Celebrity; the requirements associated with moving to the highest tier are quantum...

The benefit costing numbers that Joel shared with us yesterday left me incredulous... Not only do they improperly combine episodic spend on "Free Days"--the highest priced component of the revised program--as if they'll actually incur the most significant ones anytime soon [if at all]--but they understate [not seriously as the benefits are so paltry] those, like internet subsidies, that are recurrent [it takes a whole lot more than one cruise to move from membership level to membership level but it may be okay as they take credit in their costing for a few things that most will never use]... The Financial Analyst who prepared this stuff--at least as it's been presented to us--should be fired! It would be laughable if not so tragically ill-conceived/poorly reasoned [and now it's memorialized on the web for all to see; I sure wouldn't point it out--as an example of my best work--if seeking a job]...

The model as presented only really works--somewhat--for those affluent passengers who are just starting their cruise history now and who stay with them... They'll desperately need those guests to fill their ships as their veteran "fans" defect to greener/more appreciative pastures... And I suspect that Azamara will quickly lose their newly attracted audience as it will soon become apparent that there are far better, more realistic loyalty programs elsewhere...

-----

Most of Azamara's clientele are those--like me--who move between Azamara and Celebrity... Some--who now cruise virtually exclusively with Azamara--have very significant Celebrity histories... And those who have sailed with Azamara exclusively, haven't been sailing very long so as to have attained higher levels of tier membership status in Le Club Voyage...

With Azamara still in its infancy--the line has only been around since 2007 or so--the fact is that the signature/most tangible benefit of the revised LCV program--"Free Days"--is virtually unattainable [if at all] for those now at the highest membership tiers [Elite+/Zenith on Celebrity; Discoverer +/Discoverer Platinum on Azamara] no matter how much one sails with Azamara... And Azamara's "Free Days" feature won't really kick in anytime soon--then at a fairly modest level; the benefit ramps up based upon attainment of progressive tier levels--in a tangible way for those with comparatively short cruise histories and little/none of it on Celebrity...

It's no wonder that those who have been most faithful to the combined lines are upset at the prospect of losing the existing laundry allowances [not materially different than those offered through Captain's Club] and internet benefits [packages will be available at a discount based upon membership tier but there will be no "free" time under the revised program] as they have lost much and have nothing--absolutely nothing beyond a wallet reach--to anticipate...

Dan Hanrahan created full reciprocity between Celebrity and Azamara when he served as leader of both--to the point of implementing a shared loyalty accounting system--with the hope that guests would "move over" to their boutique, usually higher priced, line but so as to not create impediments to sailing either interchangeably... I'm sure it seemed like a good idea at the time...

Don't know if it has any substance but there is an attorney--who sails Celebrity/Azamara--who is alleging that the LCV revisions and take-aways may be regarded as fraudulent for those who booked in good faith with different expectations based upon past practice...

Those of us who have been more loyal and now find ourselves as Discoverer Plus following last year's "upgrade" are actually at a disadvantage to others in the lower levels because the points spectrum for Plus is so much more than the other levels:

 

Adventurer (after 1st voyage) Up to 149

Explorer 150 – 299

Discoverer 300 – 749

Discoverer Plus. 750 - 2999

Discoverer Platinum 3000+

 

Bearing in mind the 50% rule I don't think I will ever achieve my free nights on Azamara.

I had double the Cruise Points necessary to make Discoverer+/Elite+ upon conversion last November but still needed to double those again to make the Discoverer Platinum/Zenith membership levels... I thought that move up to likely be unattainable but I've continued to cruise and--with Celebrity now doing a "double up" on Cruise Points for solos paying the 100% single supplement--now see it as a possibility...

With my current travel plans, by this time next year I'll be about 80 cruise days away from Zenith/Discover Plus--sailing in the AquaClass or Concierge Class cabins I choose on Celebrity--but about 160 days away from the move up if I sail Azamara in a balcony stateroom as I have--and will again next February; I'd cancel were it not for the compensatory discounts I got when Journey became disabled in Tokyo so as to cause one sailing to be shortened and one to be fully cancelled--with them...

Even if I were to foolishly choose to sail with Azamara exclusively for twice the time--most often at higher prices while giving up my generous Elite+ benefits on Celebrity--to achieve the next level of membership, it is at this point statistically impossible for me to meet the requirement that 50% of Cruise Points be earned with Azamara to qualify for so-called "Free Days"... The alleged benefit is specious for many but especially so for those who have already shown very substantive allegiance to and have the most significant cruise histories with Azamara and Celebrity; the requirements associated with moving to the highest tier are quantum...

The benefit costing numbers that Joel shared with us yesterday left me incredulous... Not only do they improperly combine episodic spend on "Free Days"--the highest priced component of the revised program--as if they'll actually incur the most significant ones anytime soon [if at all]--but they understate [not seriously as the benefits are so paltry] those, like internet subsidies, that are recurrent [it takes a whole lot more than one cruise to move from membership level to membership level but it may be okay as they take credit in their costing for a few things that most will never use]... The Financial Analyst who prepared this stuff--at least as it's been presented to us--should be fired! It would be laughable if not so tragically ill-conceived/poorly reasoned [and now it's memorialized on the web for all to see; I sure wouldn't point it out--as an example of my best work--if seeking a job]...

The model as presented only really works--somewhat--for those affluent passengers who are just starting their cruise history now and who stay with them... They'll desperately need those guests to fill their ships as their veteran "fans" defect to greener/more appreciative pastures... And I suspect that Azamara will quickly lose their newly attracted audience as it will soon become apparent that there are far better, more realistic loyalty programs elsewhere...

Ironically, I turned to Azamara as my travel tastes matured and I was in search of more interesting itineraries and more immersive experiences [though the onboard experience--at least to date--has been impeccable, most of the inclusives (and particularly the high-priced alcohol) are lost on me]... I thought I was graduating... But I'm no dunce--my parents didn't raise a stupid son--and will now seek my experiences and my benefits elsewhere with cruise lines that better value my patronage...

If Azamara hopes to be a going concern, I can't imagine how they could so dramatically misread--and disrespect/insult--their "bread and butter"... So very sad; this latest action merely affirms my long-simmering suspicions on many dimensions...

Hi Xport, I'm back online for you. Tomorrow I'll see where the Shorex Department is on the issues you've brought up. I am really saddened when I read your statements such as "feeling like you're carping" (you're NOT!) and "Planning fun shouldn't be so much work" (I concur, it should be easy, and seamless for you.)

I'll get back to you soon.

Bonnie

You have no idea--trust me--how good it is to have you back... It's been a tough few weeks here and today's not going down well either...

I personally appreciate that you--like Bill--read/listen with discernment, ask for clarification when we're unclear, want to understand our valid issues fully without jumping to improper/incomplete judgments, bring them forward for consideration, follow-up as necessary, and--whether you are delivering a welcome or unwelcome response--always do so with respect for the guest, as you do in all your communications here, and perspective...

If you ever have any doubts, please know that you do make a difference here...

Am so glad that you had an enjoyable, much-needed, and hopefully restful getaway...

By the way... Journey 7084 was my "home" for four weeks--would have been six if the ship didn't require repair/things unfolded as planned--in Asia earlier this year... I loved the location and the onboard pampering...

I have been on three of the other s class ships but I think the Reflection is laid out a little differently what deck is the ocean view cafe on? Thanks

Reflection is laid out a bit differently... Cabins were added to Deck 12, the pool is no on Deck 14, and the Oceanview entrances are now located adjacent to the pool [no stairs]...

This is certainly somewhat misleading:

 

1. The 10% discount only applies to SELECT voyages, not all. I assume these will be the ones not booking well, which is where the reduced singles supplement is also offered at the current time.

As someone who typically sales solo, I'm particularly attuned to the accuracy of your observation... The Savings For Singles program has all but dwindled into oblivion and--to make matters worse--Azamara hasn't bothered to update the website listing available opportunities as the roster has begrudgingly been expanded... And then, Azamara wonders why they've gotten related adverse comments from me and other similarly situated cruisers!

On a similar theme, I actually thought that Azamara might use this Roll Out to announce that they would follow the leads of their sister lines--Royal Caribbean and Celebrity--in awarding double Cruise Points to solo cruisers paying a 200% single supplement... Such a small and equitable thing but I must have been absolutely delusional to think that a leadership that fails to read or listen to the Voice Of The Guest, meet commitments, and comes across as fundamentally arrogant [let's politely say unattuned] might actually understand--let alone foster--the patronage of the 21st Century's most rapidly emerging demographic...

I've been a very vocal critic of Azamara's Le Club Voyage debacle from its outset, and though I could write pages today, others here have done a great job of expressing my shared exasperation today... I just looked at a letter from Azamara's Marketing Director--sent to me while aboard Journey in February after I expressed my displeasure--that makes me cackle, in utter disbelief, in retrospect... In part, it stated... "As far as the program benefits, we are working on new benefits that will launch in April. I realize there is a lag between December and April, and you are right, it should all be launched at the same time... We were, however, as a team not happy with the initial benefit recommendation. Therefore, we decided rather than launch something in haste that was not right, to go back to the drawing board to create something we felt was a stronger benefits program to our guests." So we've waited nine + months for this??? And isn't the gleeful giddiness and sense of renewed loyalty among Cruise Critic members--many with very significant sailing histories with Azamara and across the family of brands--palpable, almost electric, here today???

I could take on the numbers published here today--they're seriously flawed and lack cogency/candor--but enough has been said and now, more than ever, I have profound doubt and increasingly little care that such comments might matter one iota... And so it comes down to this: Poke me with a fork; I'm done and want to get off this grill before I'm further burned...

I am reminded of an old expression that my very wise, immigrant, Eastern European grandfather used to use... "The more you smear a pig with honey, the more it smells like____." I'll let the imaginative members here fill in the blank...

I think they have laundry rooms so losing the "free" part is no big deal.

Azamara does have a single laundry room on Deck 7--no fewer than two but surely no more than four washers/dryers each [i think it's fewer]--available for guest use on a complimentary basis...

As the laundry room is nestled in a stateroom area, its hours of operation are appropriately limited from a noise abatement perspective... And as Azamara tends to offer extremely port-intensive itineraries ["Longer port calls! More overnights! Night touring!"], everyone seemingly wants to use the laundry facilities at the same time... It's often been mayhem in the past; with the changes to Le Club Voyage it will most assuredly get far worse in the future...

With all due respect, it is--among a whole litany of things announced today [as Ma Bell rightly points out, the devil is in the fine print]--a very big deal...

XPort:

 

Thank you so much for the detailed response to my question. You have given so much information which will be of great help to me, as well as many other travellers on the same or similar cruises.

 

This will be our first time in Asia and it can be a bit overwhelming visiting a new region, but with people like you to share their experience, it makes the planning much easier.

 

Thank you again,

 

Susan and Gary.

You are very welcome; glad that you find my comments and insights to be helpful...

My February 2014 trip was my first to Asia too and I recall all too well how daunting the planning--and sometimes, the execution--could be! Know that I found my research and meticulous planning very worthwhile in terms of getting the destination immersive experience I wanted... And since I didn't and don't know if I'll ever have opportunity to return, I wanted to experience as much as was feasible--covering a range of perspectives--in the time available to me...

It was exhausting and I was on historical, cultural, societal, religious overload for weeks... But clearly, it was all--as they say--AzAmazing!

Enjoy!

--Mike

We are sailing on the Quest Jan 5 for Vietnam and Thailand. I have spent some time looking at various shore excursion options and find that at some locations there are more than one port that the ships dock. For example in Ho Chi Minh City there is Saigon Port or Phu My (which can add an additional 2 hrs each way)

 

How do I find out exactly where our ship docks and what is the possibility of it changing?

I did a virtually identical itinerary--just looked at your 5 January trip--aboard Azamara Journey during February 2014 and have my copies of the dailies at hand... Your sailing--with an overnight in Danang [nice!]--adds a day to the 14 night itinerary I did and, having sailed in reverse order [from Singapore to Hong Kong], our time at some of the Vietnam ports differ as to duration... Both your trip and mine feature[d] a double overnight in Bangkok...

You will tender at Ko Samui and--unless weather, other circumstances, or Harbor Master whim get in the way--you will likely disembark the tender at Nathon Jetty... That's where we were and that's where friends who arrived via Quest during 2013 were... There's not much to see/do in the immediate area--think in terms of a small village with a commercial district geared to locals that is within walking distance [no shuttle/none required to access the immediate area]--but I found the island to be generally worth experiencing... If you want to see more, plan to tour [i prearranged one privately] as--in my opinion--the sights worth seeing aren't nearby...

At Bangkok, we docked at Klong Toey [as did Quest in 2013]--an industrial port across the river from center city [apparently not well served by the purportedly excellent public transport system]--but the traffic is mayhem and was worsened by anti-government demonstrations going on while we were there so as to make the transfer much longer time-wise than the relatively short distance would suggest... I didn't use it [i did excellent private tours for 2.5 days] but the ship provided a complimentary shuttle to center city [their estimate of transit time was 30 minutes; I suspect the reality was longer] at 30 minute intervals with first departure at 8:30 AM and last return from town at 6:00 PM [12:30 PM on our third day for a 2:00 PM sail-away]... Our drop-off/pick-up point was River City Mall next to Royal Orchid Sheraton Hotel; don't know if that's the usual as the demonstrations caused authorities to suggest avoidance of some areas [saw some demonstrations but never saw a problem beyond increased traffic] while we were there... Strong advice: Bring mosquito repellent and After Bite; don't know if a month will make a difference but I've never seen anything like the aggressive swarms I saw there [it was particularly bad in the port area while on open deck]!

In Ho Chi Minh City, we were docked right in town [Nha Rong Port; Quest used the same port in 2013]] and the ship provided a courtesy shuttle--at thirty minute intervals--with drop-off and pick-up at The Rex Hotel... Didn't use it but the transit time could not have been more than five or ten minutes [though we were told of the possibility that guests might be required to disembark the buses to pass through Customs to have bags x-rayed before reboarding to complete the transfer]... We arrived at noon on the day of our overnight with the shuttle starting a half hour later; last shuttle back from town was at 7:00 PM [our AzAmazing Evening was held that night]... On our second day, shuttle service started at 8:00 AM with last return at 3:00 PM for our 4:00 PM sail-away...

At Da Nang, Journey docked at Tien Sa Port [as did Quest during 2013]... A complimentary shuttle was provided at 30 minute intervals to/from Trung Vuong Theater Square [i'm sure I must have passed it on tour but don't recall it and can only assume it was center city/not too far] starting at 8:00 AM [an hour after our arrival] with last return at 5:00 PM for our 6:00 PM sail-away [again, we were only there one day]... To my mind, there's not enough in Da Nang to fill a day if you are serious about touring [i spent a few hours in town before heading to Hoi An; for me, it was a choice between Hoi An or Hue; looks like you can do both if so inclined]... If venturing out of Da Nang to Hoi An or Hue, plan on taking a tour; both are a bit of a drive...

At Halong Bay, we docked at Cai Lan [we had expected to tender; don't know what Quest did in 2013]--a few miles from where one boards the junks [bumper boats!] that do the scenic sailings around Halong Bay... Azamara provided courtesy shuttles to Thanh Nien Market on Bai Chay Street [downtown; I believe--but am not sure--that it was adjacent to where my tour dropped us off to board the junks] at 30 minute intervals... Our first day was our short day with shuttles starting at 1:30 PM relative to a 1:00 PM arrival with last return to the ship at 9:00 PM [our overnight]... On our second day, the first shuttle departed the ship at 8:00 AM with last return to the ship from downtown at 5:30 PM for our 7:00 PM sail-away... You'll have the advantage of having a long day for your overnight; visit Hanoi that day if so inclined--I found my time there to be very worthwhile/memorable right down to our round-trip rest stops at The Center For Humanity [Google it!]--but know that it's a 12+ hour day... And if going, save the sail around Halong Bay [with a stop at the caves] for your short day; to my mind--and I enjoyed it--that 3.5 or 4 hours was sufficient...

When in port, be vigilant if riding in a tuk-tuk [and I recommend doing so; it was fun/different/"must do" to the area]... Two women from Journey were doing so in Hanoi and the tuk-tuk was stopped, along with other traffic, for a red light... Two guys--riding on a motor scooter--were stopped right next to them... The guy on the back hopped off, grabbed one woman's purse [she shouldn't have been holding it to the outside of the tuk-tuk but rather should have held it to the interior/between her and her tour mate], and the two guys sped off!

Several months ago, I responded to a post inquiring about touring in Vietnam [that person's itinerary isn't visiting Thailand]... If interested in my comments, you'll find them here...

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2071563

I thoroughly enjoyed--and was fulfilled by--every moment of my visit to Thailand and Vietnam [this was my first trip to Asia]; I saw/learned much... Hope you enjoy it too; it is memorable!

Like me you are a great cruiser- but even great cruisers can need some help at times.

...

 

love to meet you one day. left FL for the mts..

For as much as I've cruised and for as much as I research, I learn new and helpful things--oftentimes here on Cruise Critic--every day...

I have a sense that we'll inevitably have the chance to meet aboard a ship someday; it would be my pleasure to do so... But for as much as I love the highly personal and impeccable onboard experience with Azamara and their itineraries/Destination Immersion concept, I am--as you have detected--more than a bit frustrated with some of the ancillary issues associated with sailing with them... Aside from the Land Discovery concerns I've expressed here [not new but far worse than I encountered with Asia], I've been peeved about their commitment to and repeated delinquency surrounding the Le Club Voyage changes, the continuing website deficiencies, their wavering commitment to the "Savings For Singles" program [i don't like to think of my patronage as an afterthought if/when convenient; doesn't help--as I surfaced here several weeks ago--that they didn't even bother to update the listing of eligible cruises on their website [six were/are missing for 2015], and it took an Act Of [our dysfunctional] Congress to get my invoices right for my cruises next year [actually, after a month of trying it took an exasperated call from my full-service Travel Agent to her Azamara Rep--who in turn contacted an Exec in Miami--to get proper resolution/the matter settled (wasn't looking for/expecting anything other than "correct" in accordance with their policies/practices!)]...

Azamara is rightfully proud of much they offer but I don't know if I'll be back until the start-to-finish experience is of consistent good quality... As I noted yesterday, planning fun shouldn't be so much work... And sometimes, too much pride--especially when unearned by fact and/or failure to act/listen to/read the Voice Of The Customer--gets in the way of good judgment by some [thank goodness for Bill and Bonnie!] so as to foster a confidence that can come across as arrogance/guest indifference... It's a shame as Azamara could--from booking to disembarkation--be truly stellar...

Xport, we are clear on what you are asking for and the shore excursion team is working on it. We thank you very much for the time and level of detail you have provided.

Actually, I'm not asking much personally beyond a cogent listing of Land Discovery opportunities at Rio [i have a penchant for sensibility] and reconsideration/potential accommodation for consecutive cruisers as to the terms of the Best Of Rio tour on 19 February which provides only an airport--rather than an airport and pier--drop-off... As I pointed out to Bonnie back in July, that full-day tour is only being offered once otherwise--with pier drop-off--on 16 February but is not a viable option for those who also plan to attend the Sambadrome event that evening [that's why one visits at Carnival] as the two tours--in combination--result in a marathon day of nearly 24 hours of continuous touring! My very specific request is a guest-focus thing; 4+ days aboard Journey in Rio and I can't reasonably get in both a full day tour of the city and the Sambadrome without getting a taxi back from the airport to pier as things stand now...

Let's be clear that the ultimate benefit of providing a logistically feasible roster of Land Discoveries--embarkation/disembarkation day offerings in Rio are most problematic--accrues to Azamara and not to me in terms of sales and/or in terms of potentially disappointing less-traveled and studied guests who may already be booking tours that are likely not viable and will almost assuredly be cancelled... And in one case--as was true of the Nights In Cool Places/Scenarium tour that Bonnie already had corrected at my suggestion--another night offering on 19 February is not associated with the correct sailing [it starts 12 hours after most guests disembark and can't be booked--it's not listed--as a post-dinner offering by those embarking that day]; I'm guessing--just a hunch--that it's not received a booking by anyone paying the least bit of attention [as it's posted now, I wouldn't book it either--even as a consecutive cruiser--as it's sure to be undersubscribed/cancelled unless properly associated with the 19 February--rather than 7 February--sailing]...

It's unfortunate that my attempts to get these things corrected to Azamara's benefit may have turned me--incorrectly/unfairly--into someone who is perceived as a carping nuisance... No good deed goes unpunished...