Noggins

5 minutes ago, Whipsnade said:

I stand by my prediction there will not be a new Crystal ship, ocean or expedition before 2030. 

Which is why two Italian families need to get together over a large bowl of spag bol and agree that family 1 sell 2 arguably unecessary ships to family 2 and agree that family 1 have 1st dibs on the tik tok generation cruise market whilst family 2 have 1st dibs on the market with the ageing tickers........

First family to reach profitability wins a Ferrari. 

4 hours ago, TRIPACIAN said:

The statement was made that Crystal/AK wanted to be positioned two levels above the rest.  Bold statement but indicates their commitment.

Now that is quite an aspiration. And it necessitates some pretty high per diems. Deck 7 personnel need to hope that there are some racy introductory fares. Hoping that market saturation will force fares down, Colin, is good to a point - but not to the point where lines start to go under. And we don't want anything resembling that again!

And to Whipsnade's point, there is nothing too much wrong with the Explora Journey product and I would not be too quick to write them off. I'm sure it takes a while a carve out a slice of the market - especially if you are also trying to create a new market. Crystal will be having to do something very similar by the sound of it.

TWT

Adrian

7 hours ago, BWIVince said:

 

I appreciate you posting that, because I've never really looked at it that way.  I think all of Crystals owners have been relatively sensitive to this factor, and that's the reason none of the ocean ships (even A&K's new builds, if they follow the announced plan) have evolved more than one step...  (Inside > Lifeboat Obstructed > Outside Window > and now Veranda).  I think the prior owners have all been trying to fix the problem (more on that in a sec), but do it in a way that alienates as few of the customer base as possible in the process.

 

At its root though, is a very serious problem.  Crystal's original sin (to the extent it has one) is that NYK changed the concept for Crystal from upper-premium to luxury way too late to change the general arrangement of the ship.   They were able to make a lot of product changes to accommodate the new concept, but there are certain things you can't just change without adding months to construction and tens of millions of dollars in cost.  With Harmony well underway, they were still stuck with things like two-seating dining and a stateroom mix (and stateroom dimensions) of an upper-premium ship.

 

While that creates a marketing challenge on the front end (you'll love stepping into the tub to open the bathroom door -- helps you get your steps in for the day!), it also creates a revenue challenge on the back end.  There's only so much you can get for an indoor room, or a lifeboat-obstructed room, or ANY room that's significantly smaller than your competitors.  This has always hindered Crystal's potential to be profitable, and something the subsequent management teams have tried to chip away at.  

 

When Symphony was designed, Crystal's concept was pretty well locked in as "the amenities of an upper-premium ship with the soft product of a luxury line" -- trying to put the best spin on what they had to work with.  Seeing as how they needed Harmony for the foreseeable future, and they needed a similar ship and not a contrasting one, they tried to keep the stateroom dimensions similar and fix the big problems -- but also raise the average per diems by eliminating the lowest per diem rooms and better match the maturing luxury segment.  They went through a similar exercise with Serenity -- the tonnage was a big enough jump to add a few square feet to each stateroom, but not enough to dramatically change the design (which still was supposed to compliment the other two, at least when designed).  They tried to again chip away at the revenue gap by adjusting the mix and eliminate the lowest per diem rooms (higher ratio of suites, which were easier to sell, and no "distressed" rooms).  This also doesn't happen in a vacuum -- demand for suites and veranda rooms is soaring during this time, and luxury passengers who are looking for lower end rooms isn't growing as quickly.

 

To me, at least on preliminary info, it feels like A&K is following the same formula as all the management teams before them.  (IIRC, Genting was looking at the same 1 category jump, with a tweak to the mix, but we didn't much much more detail about the minimum staterooms than that.)

 

I don't know of that change is big enough to dramatically change the feel of the customer base...  I think history would say no, and they seem to be as sensitive to dramatic shifts and the challenge that creates as any of the other items, but that's just how I read it when I look at it through this lens.  

 

(Sorry it took so much typing to get there, but I feel like it needed all that perspective to show it's kind of a status quo evolution for Crystal.)

 

Vince

So much more historical context than I could ever muster - and more erudite too, come to that. Thanks for your thoughts, Vince.

But it's always fun to speculate and try to put yourself in the shoes of the decision makers.

Personally I struggle to get over the fact that A&K pre Crystal was not marketing to the 'ocean view ' market. They were firmly focused on the deep pocketed 'sapphire suite and above' market.

What we have seen so far is how adroit they can be with making work their initial purchase. What we will soon be seeing is what they actually aspire to. Having experienced EJ I felt that their amazing hardware (or something  like it) would definitely work for Crystal. But there weren't any ocean view rooms....

TWT

(Special abbreviation, just for the Crystal board - we could become known as the TWT's - Time Will Tell....)

Adrian 

5 minutes ago, BWIVince said:

@Noggins -- Not bumping this thread, but over here we can continue the discussion of the details disclosed on the new ships from the Las Palmas to Miami thread, without further hijacking that thread. 🙂  (Hijacking threads is my subconscious obsession, I fear.)

 

Vince

 

 

Hey, well done - just what I had in mind! Thanks Vince.

What it had me thinking is just what is the essence of Crystal? Clearly the occupants of the non veranda rooms have always been a significant proportion of the guest make-up (someone - probably Vince - will know just what proportion!). I don't believe I've ever read anyone comment that Crystal would be so much finer without the peasant class from the ship's bowels (otherwise known as deck 7). Which must mean that amongst us all, we the guests, that mix of people from different backgrounds, different economic situations all appreciate that which Crystal offers and represents and we meld well together (by and large).

Strip away that significant layer of Crystal's guests means replacing them with different people. Well now, just pop over to the Explora Journey board and see just what level of discussion / dismay / puzzlement  there is about EJ's attempt to find the new clientele essential to their future existence. It's enough to strike fear in the heart of anyone who has loved Crystal!

But I'm not a Luddite (sorry if you have to look that up) and recognise life moves on, the future is not all bad, change can be good etc etc. But let's just hope 'they' find a new recipe for the 'special sauce' that is what has made Crystal special and the best. And if they do let's hope no-one gets left behind from experiencing the new ship(s) - if they want to.

Adrian 

48 minutes ago, BWIVince said:

 

Spot-on...  I'm pretty sure I'm one of those people who will be squeezed out once the new ships roll-out.  Most of Crystal's current fares are a stretch for me -- and that's not a complaint, just a point of fact.  I think the cruises are competitively priced and an appropriate value, things are just expensive in the new world.

 

I think it's very important that Crystal's minimum staterooms meet market demand.  In the luxury segment, it's hard to make an argument for anything less than balcony staterooms anymore, as much as many of us would live to buy a cheaper stateroom without a balcony...  It's just hard to charge the kind of per diems needed to support the rest of the product with staterooms like that.

 

I've watched this transition many times already, both as the market evolved, and as Crystal transitioned from its originally planned premium product to a true luxury product.  Harmony had inside staterooms that were no longer appropriate when Symphony was designed.  Symphony's minimum staterooms were lifeboat-obstructed, which became a tougher sell in the segment over time.   Serenity's minimum staterooms are windowed, and now that's given the stink eye from most luxury travelers.

 

I'll be happy if Crystal does what's best for Crystal...  It's on me if it's out of my reach.  Just my $.02.

 

Vince

I want to respond further on the general topic / to Vince but it feels like we've managed to take this thread way off course.

And as I have been looking forward to travelling along on a journey I wistfully thought about joining it feels inappropriate to continue the hijack. 

Lots of news from the crossing please - and I'm interested to hear about @out2sea's new material!

Adrian 

2 hours ago, goldengatecruisers said:

Another good comment was the all-balcony accommodations

There will be a lot of loyal Crystal-lites who will be going 😬 or 🤦‍♂️ or 🤷‍♂️ as they see themselves potentially priced out. Of course, it is inevitable - you can't be in this sector and still have 'ocean view' rooms on a brand new ship. But it will be a shame if we lose too many true Crystal folks simply because their budget can't stretch.

(I like to think of myself as a problem solver but I'm strugging here other than some wild thoughts around the need to cruise as soon as the new casinos get up and running...)

1 hour ago, Sthrngary said:

My travel agent suggested for me to learn more about Explora Journey.  I read a few reviews, I saw some familiar contributors from other boards. I am looking at to consider Explora but need some comparisons to what I have been used too in the past. Any and all feedback would be appreciated. Full disclosure, I never ask questions unless I am seriously considering a brand. All the brands I will outline below I still enjoy but for specific cruises or experiences I want on a cruise.  I am booked for a 10 day Mediterranean Cruise in late 2025 on Oceania Vista. 

 

What I enjoy and want in my future cruises:

 

• Brands and Experiences I have Enjoyed in the Past: NCL Haven, MSC Yacht Club, Celebrity Retreat and most recently Oceania Cruise Larger Ships. In each case, the personalized service, dining, bars and amenities were better then standard cruise categories. 
• Personalized Service: Feeling like a guest vs. a number.  Service that does not feel like a cookie cutter.  
• Dining: Not rushed, attentive service, quality food, with the understanding it will never be Five Star since it is a floating hotel. I also realize food in general is subjective. 
• Semi-All-Inclusive: I have no need for airfare, I would prefer to arrange and do my own excursions, I would enjoy as I notice this brand has transfers from ports to city central, access to all areas including thermal spa, specialty restaurants, etc. 

 

Things I would like to know:

 

• What are the benefits or amenities differences between stateroom categories.  Early booking for specialty restaurants, early boarding, additional benefits for inside staterooms, butlers, and in-stateroom bar/soft drink setups.
• Those that have gone on the brands and categories I outlined above, how the Explora compared in you mind. 

 

I will continue to google, watch YouTube Video's, and call the reservations to clarify some questions.  Any information from those that have traveled this brand would be appreciated.

 

Cruise well and enjoy every moment. 

I have nothing more to offer but wot I already wrote!

13 hours ago, KenzSailing said:

 

I look forward to your review.  The way Virgin does dining really intrigues me, we are tempted...

Ah - sounds like I might be doing a review.....!🙃

2 hours ago, Waltershipman said:

Loved the automatic doors to public restrooms big plus

I do agree - but I recall at least one toilet where the auto door goes from the very public deck area directly into the toilet cubicle. And the hand-swipe locking mechanism was both not intuitive and the 3 menu options (unlocked, locked, open , if I remember correctly) were so close together you just never knew for sure whether the door was definitely locked - or not.... 

I distinctly remember being relieved (in a different way) that the low passenger count made it a) less likely someone else would find the door unlocked when I hoped I'd locked it and b) the deck area would not be thronged with folk getting an unwanted viewing should disaster strike.

(British trains suffer from the very same problem. Or should I say British train passengers.)

36 minutes ago, English Tim said:

Sadly, it looks like I will have to postpone my trip report as I’ve been isolated to my cabin for five days, unless there’s anything you want to know about my cabin!

What rotten luck, Tim - hope you're feeling better very soon.

But it does give the opportunity to return to the debate around books in the room and whether they are carefully curated EJ books or just past guest leftovers. Tim, do you have any books in your room?! If so, are any in English and worth a read?

Adrian

5 hours ago, Texas Tillie said:

 

With 2770 passengers, I'd say Virgin wouldn't be an option for the Crystal demographic, for sure not THIS Crystal demographic. 🤪Patty

Just a little sheepishly I have to admit we have just booked a Virgin cruise.... (There, I have said it out loud now - no going back.)

Last year there was an amazing offer of a 'free' cruise for 2 people for 80k virgin miles. (worth c.£800 depending on your valuation) We sent our son and wife. They had a wonderful time ( our son has cruised Crystal with us) and were amazed at the quality. Furthermore they said we'd enjoy it. 

Well, this year the offer is repeated and we have a 14 day TA for zero £'s in a central standard balcony room.

We have cruised non luxury lines before and adjust our expectations accordingly. This one will be closely followed by our next Serenity cruise - so we might enjoy that even more now as we make up for all the 'luxuries' we will have missed on Virgin!

Reviews of Virgin I have read certainly lead me to expect a different experience but I am hoping we'll find a way of extracting those parts of the Virgin product that will provide us with a perfectly satisfactory fun experience.

I haven't decided whether to report daily as I did on Explora recently. 

The ship will certainly not be full and one other  certainty thing is that we won't have any misbehaving children to contend with. (Hopefully there won't be too many misbehaving adults....)

Adrian 

8 minutes ago, Waltershipman said:

All the  best to you and I enjoy your posts

oh - and thanks!

1 minute ago, Waltershipman said:

Excellent I was on the Sirena in 2020 when Covid hit and got back March 8. We were in a PH and enjoyed it actually enjoyed this R ship better than Vista as we found Vista had a feeling of being crowded.Our PH was lovely and felt big. We loved EJ when we sailed last October and have booked it again 

 

All the  best to you and I enjoy your posts

we were on Sirena - in a PH - when she first went to Cuba. An emotional FDR was first ashore. (and we had a fascinating tour that day - another lifelong memory made) We were also on Marina's the maiden crossing. A lovely ship, we thought at the time - but we always had a soft spot for the 'R's.

EJ eclipses all of those, of course. It's in a different category. But comparisons are relevant nevertheless.

1 hour ago, Waltershipman said:

In February while cruising on the vista, I did a comparison between ocean vista and Explorer journey. It's in the explorer journey Message board with comparison

thanks, I remember it - but I have never sailed on the vista and nor has the OP which may be as well as it's a comparison with the older ships that interests me more. Vista is not on my hit list - not now we have Crystal back - and EJ, come to that!

I see you are highly versed in all things Oceania. It would be interesting to to hear your comments comparing EJ to O ships. There are some elements of EJ that reminded us of O - restaurants in particular but also 'vibe'. 

Have a wonderful time (and don't spend too much of it posting here!).
Adrian

1 hour ago, English Tim said:

Did anyone from the UK receive any documents prior to the cruise or is everything online?

 

Did anyone wear sneakers or sandals for dinner?

All our documents were on-line - including luggage labels. (not very luxury - but things do improve!)

Sneakers or sandals will not get sneered at nor cause a scandal....

It sounds as if we might have a few things in common..... Seatspy (and an Explora cruise) for starters. I'm guessing there is an BA AMEX Premium Plus card and, probably, Head for Points involved in the mix too? The Concorde Room is definitely worth a visit!

Looking forward to your postings (And Sid's).

Adrian

7 hours ago, BWIVince said:

The challenge with commissions is that someone has to do the work and get paid for it.  At least in the US travel industry, it’s never been a choice of commission-funded travel agents or book direct and save the commission.  
 

No matter what anyone claims, in direct booking scenarios, the supplier just takes on the labor of managing the booking, and funds that in lieu of paying an agent for that support….  And for the most part, what the customer gets in lieu of a professional agent when they book direct, is a minimum wage, high turnover (or worse, outsourced) call center that gives them a lower level of (often incorrect or frustrating) care for pretty much the same price.  Suppliers may advertise direct booking savings or price match guarantees, but their contracts with their preferred partners guarantee price parity, so most booking channels end up with the same prices anyway (and better service).

 

I can’t comment on Explora’s commission rates because I don’t know how that’s constructed, but I will say that a 20% base commission would be problematic at best because of how commissions are tiered.  Normally, commissions come in two flavors — base commissions and overrides.  Base commissions are the same for every agency everywhere, and is customarily around 10% for most suppliers (though some companies have chipped away at that, with varying results).  Overrides are paid on top of commissions and vary by agency — these are considerations for things like sales volume, or membership in a buying consortium.  So if I was an agency that was a member of XYZ Consortium, I might get a commission of 10% on a booking, plus an override of 4%.  In rare cases, a supplier may also offer a promotion, which would be a third type of compensation — sometimes non-cash — on top of both the override and commission, to really help sell.

 

So if 20% is the total amount after overrides and promotions, that would be generous but not unheard of…. But if the 20% is just the commission, that’s a different story.  
 

I’ll add one more comment, because things are slightly different for new cruise lines starting out.  Most overrides and preferred supplier agreements are based on 2-5 year sales data.  New travel suppliers don’t have that with anyone, so overrides become more of a sore point than a go-to, causing new companies to temporarily turn more to slightly bigger base commissions or bigger promotions until they can get long-term consortium or preferred supplier agreements in place, which takes a few years.  That may also explain part of the 20% amount, but still sort of leaves open how it’s arrived at.

 

Vince

Thanks Vince, inciteful as ever and with additional layers of knowledge helpfully shared.

Adrian 

9 hours ago, BWIVince said:

Not saying this is the case, but this is the type of scenario I was mentioning.  Here I could see consortiums or agent groups pushing back on getting paid less for the same work on the award booking, and Crystal just throwing in the towel on the cruise fare credit as a remedy.  

I suppose I sort of knew it but reading the other day that Explora apparently pays 20% commission still made my eyes water. And at that level significant losses for  TA's could arise if Crystal applied the awards to the commissionable fare.

But what do we think about our TA's earning 20%? (and I assume Crystal pays similarly). The only way to test this, in my opinion, is to consider how I would feel if I had the choice of a net price from the cruise line (keeping the maths* simple, a fare 20% cheaper) and then how I would  feel when my TA invoiced me for around 20% of my cruise cost. That could be quite a chunky invoice. And suppose I had 2/3/4 + of those invoices every year. Would I value my TA's input that much? Would their input justify those fees on a routine basis? Would I always / sometimes choose to simply book direct and take the chunky saving?

I can think of other (financial  product) markets in the UK where there has been a maturing from products being purely commission based to being net priced with 'agents' charging fees for their services.

* yes, mathematics is, in English, a plural so that 's' on the end is essential!

Adrian 

Only because it has not been mentioned, I would say the main issue with the lifeboats / tenders is whether your cruise is tender port intensive. If it is bear in mind the early morning (generally) commotion and noise from the tenders being readied and lowered. A surprisingly noisy activity.

Of course on the plus side, once the tenders are off for the day there is no question of any view being obstructed!

Adrian  

Now listen, this is getting ridiculous - how can there possibly be over 16k views of this thread? If I had realised at the outset that there would be more than, say 250, I would have taken a bit more care over it. (and if I had known it would reach such numbers I might have written to Mr Explora Journeys and tried to do an 'if we reach 15k views can I have a free cruise - or maybe a tote bag?' deal with him.)

A few weeks of further reflection have confirmed that an EJ cruise is definitely for repeating. I have cast around a little for a future cruise and find it all very confusing. There are some astonishingly keen prices for a week in the Caribbean but there are also some extremely high prices in other parts of the world. To add to the confusion TA's seem to have prices all of their own and there's a rumour that at least one TA offers a significant refund on the fare once you arrive home. How odd.

8 hours ago, Roland4 said:

Our first, and hopefully last, itinerary disruption was just announced by the Captain. The forecast for Santorini tomorrow is for 50 knot winds in the anchorage, so our stop has been cancelled. We are instead going to Nafplion, which is certainly not Santorini, but we were there on Esprit in 2017 and quite enjoyed it! And the side benefit is we don't have to get up at 00:Dark-Hundred as we would have had to do for our very early tour departure!!!!! 😁

Santorini has been ruined by the hordes (although I have not checked how many ships were due tomorrow). The only good way to spend the day on a Santorini stop is making it a sea day and enjoy an empty-ish ship. IMHO, of course, Nafplion is a much better stop (and is not naff). Enjoy!

19 hours ago, maggie.1008 said:

Hopefully Heike will be back ack on board on April 27th.

We have 12:30 pm boarding time. Will we be able to go straight to our cabin?

You're going to have to try a bit harder than this, Heather! What you meant to say was 'will I be able to go straight to my Penthouse Suite and will our Host be there to greet us?'......

If you need a full glossary of Explora speak you only have to ask.

😎

1 hour ago, tfred said:

out of MIA, there are no good direct choices to LHR. Weird BA Club seat arrangements, DL 1-2-1 through ATL or JFK.  You would think that MIA would be better served

 

VS is dated but at least they are friendly   I think they are still using past good tidings of flights past. Sooner or later that goes away. 

We flew VS LHR - MIA on a 350 with the latest seat configuration (and bar) that was a totally different experience to the return VS journey from Barbados with the old 787 seat. The new seat even has a door. Well, they call it a door. 'Flap' describes it better. But in any event better than the old BA seat which is still on some of the MIA flights - notably the 380. Although even then the forward cabin on the 380 upper deck is a good option as long as you are travelling with your partner and book a pair of seats with a window.

Two decent options, with the LHR Clubhouse possibly swinging the final vote for VS.

But to be fair, JB, were they ever going to say (and they don't need to - imho) 'hey guys, we got it all wrong - we're very sorry and we're going to try harder. Please bear with us whilst we adopt and listen to our first customers much better ideas and advice'.....?

Who knows what they really think!

13 hours ago, Boatdrill said:

 

With respect I ask why do you cruise ?

Everything you like to do, you can do at home. 

By reading random 'live reports' from that section of CC (look for the tab at the top of the page if you'd never noticed it) I discovered that people cruise in all sorts of different ways. So much so that it is actually quite addictive - and certainly eye opening!! It hasn't resulted in my having any wish to change the way we cruise......but it has made me careful not to be as judgmental as I might naturally be!