Proposed cruise ship ADA regulations

If you hadn't guessed already, I have worked on cruise ships for many years. My employer's name doesn't matter.

 

IrisF is a scooter user who realizes that it is not generally a good idea to take ship's shore excursions due to the difficulties she encounters. IrisF is also, like many handicapped people, determined to live as full a life as possible in spite of the difficulties that crop up. From what I see, I am not in the minority. Unfortunately she is in the minority. The great majority of scooter users on my ship demand that we accommodate them regardless of inconvenience to all the other passengers, causing dangerous situations for the operation of the ship - or the impossibility of accommodating them in a primitive country. If the difficulties were explained properly and honestly some people would choose not to leave the "safety" of their homes. Others would say, I'll do what I can and enjoy it!

 

And Iris, unfortunately we are now experimenting with automatic doors for our handicapped toilets. Guests often try to force them open, stripping the mechanism. Then it either will not close or will not open. It takes 2 or 3 crew to force it in case of emergency. Would you be willing to bet your life on the availibility of those 3 crew in a real emergency? On one of my cruises, many public toilets were equipped with automatic doors, in 17 days, I only ever saw one that needed maintenance and I reported that one to the crew. It simply wouldn't work on automatic, but the door could be opened manually with not too much extra effort.

 

... Since the demand for this type of transport is quite limited, (as Queenie2 said, there will be more of us in the future) most tour operators in third world countries are reluctant to spend the large amounts of money required to furnish this sort of thing to such a small market. So, then, if there were more handicapped on the ships to use the extra services, they would spend the money? The cruise lines have very little leverage to force them to provide these things.If the cruise lines worked together, they would have the leverage. However, I suspect there is an "insurance" issue here that we are not yet talking about. Just like you , we are only guests in someone else's country. They do not operate by our rules. If they want you to keep coming back and bringing them $'s they would make a few changes if the cruise lines asked them to.

 

The cruise lines do have larger cabins where wheel chairs and scooters can be accommodated. They are called Suites. Not all suites have wider entry doors however... if all the cabin doors were wider there would be very little to complain about for a lot of scooter/wheelchair folks.

 

leoandhugh,

Excellent point. I absolutely agree with your statement that anyone trying to take a scooter ashore in a non-ADA compliant country "is either ignorant of conditions or pushing their luck". IrisF refuses to be called ignorant of the conditions. Having a willing attitude is important. Do you see the glass as half full or half empty? Can I do EVERYTHING a fully able bodied person can do - no - can I still do alot - you bet! But every week of the year I have anywhere from 10 to 40 passengers trying to do exactly that. When we point out that a wheelchair will not do so well on Puerto Vallarta's cobblestone streets or in beach sand, or that a scooter will not be allowed on a zip line tour, we get screaming, shouting, threats of lawsuits, personal attacks, spitting, cursing, punching. It never ends. What are we to do? You could try offering one or two real excursions expressly for the handicapped and or the minimally handicapped in each port. If that doesn't fly, at least you will have tried to give this "small" minority a taste of the countries they are visiting. As things stand now, none of the excursions are really available to the minimally handicapped much less the fully handicapped. If we make it easier for even more wheelchairs and scooters to come aboard ships, will this problem improve? Unlikely. Only if attitudes change.

 

Last year in Hawaii, we had a blind couple sailing in a cabin. We provided every available handicapped device required by them. Then they insisted on taking a mountain climbing tour in Kona. .....Is that fair? Of course it isn't fair. And, if your company had been smart they would not have "caved in" to their demands re that excursion. How much more could it have cost the cruise line than what you say they spent anyway? There are times when it pays to say, "so sue me!" Had they been willing to foot the bill for the extra attendents, etc. they could have arranged for that as a private excursion. Surely you went above and beyond to make it possible for them - why? When I can't even talk you into having transportation from the port into the town.

 

Yesterday at the Captain's welcome reception, an elderly handicapped passenger lost control of her scooter and ran into 3 other passengers. We now have one broken foot and many scrapes and bruises. Who pays for this? Of course the scooter user should pay, not the cruise line. How is it the cruise line's fault? The cruise line. Who pays us? You do.

 

I remain wholeheartedly sympathetic to the plight of handicapped people. I will do anything possible to accommodate their special needs and ensure that they have a comfortable and enjoyable cruise with me. But we are talking about more than comfort. This is life and death. Are you willing to risk your own lives and the lives of others? This seems a bit overly dramatic to me. It seems like I am more at risk from some of the pax that drink too much than I am from the disabled.

IrisF

The cruise lines do have larger cabins where wheel chairs and scooters can be accommodated. They are called Suites.

My last two cruises were in penthouse suites, wheelchair wouldn't fit into either one.

Sorry for the double post...IrisF

Ok, be warned. I'm about to flame Jim Gallops in a lengthy way for his comments and I am ready to be flamed in response. :eek: However, I hope the majority of people can understand and support my position.

I am outraged after reading Jim Gallups comments earlier in this thread. I feel like equality rights have been set back 20 years (i.e. Why don't people with disabilities just stop cruising and participating in life? Heck, why don't we just institutionalize "them" all so the rest of the world has no responsibility to interact with "them" and treat "them" with respect?) Ok, maybe I exaggerated with that institutionalization point: that was 60 years ago!

Most of Jim's statements relate back to the state of the country prior to the enactment of the ADA. And yes, businesses were upset that they bared responsibility for complying with new accessibility standards because it cost them money - particularly retrofiting buildings. But guess what? They got over it, and they learned a few things in the process including the following:

1. People with disabilities have tremendous earning and spending potential. Accessible education and jobs means less dependence on government money, less stress on the tax payer, the ability to contribute in a meaningful way to society and, most significantly for business, the ability to spend their money. The businesses that accommodate benefit from the spending power of this constituency. In fact, many businesses take ownership of accommodation principles and pride themselves in their efforts. And people notice. Spending power involves not only people with disabilities, but the full circle of their family, friends, colleagues and acquaintances who take notice of a company that provides access and this is where they choose to spend their money. Remember also that disability increases with age and we have an aging population with lots of money to spend with their friends and family. It only makes business sense to invest in this now.

2. Creating accessibility cost very little to nothing when incorporated into the design of new structures relative to the cost of retrofiting the old. For example, when building a cruise ship it costs no more to install a larger door in all cabins so scooter and wheelchair users who do not need other cabin accommodation can use any room on the ship and bring their scooter inside their cabin at night - improving safety and easy access for all. Similarly, cruiselines are getting better at maximizing space on ships. They can improve upon this still to make more room with less space for persons with disabilities. Universal design is the "wave" of the future. (I know, bad pun.) As the trend in cruise lines appears to be sell old ships and buy new, this is the time to make them accessible (i.e. when it costs little). Much better than making inaccessible ships and having to retrofit them later when legislation mandates it - and this will happen given the increasing age of the populace.

Because they are subject to US accessibility standards, cruise lines are accountable to maintain them. Providing accommodation is one of these requirements. Quite frankly, I think I would challenge the cruise line who reduces the number of accessible cabins, or the legislation that authorizes this.

I do agree that excursions in countries outside of the US are not required to be accessible. And currently, many poorer countries do not offer many accessible excursion. But certain businesses do offer some because they see value in doing so. The cruise line that takes ownership of accommodation and offers accessible excursions (perhaps with the advanced notice that the tour may be slower as it is serving passengers with disabilities) will receive the business of the whole network of travellers associated with people with disabilities. I believe this to be a missed opportunity.

Those strange cases (dog biting and deficating, out of control scooters, hiking assistance) I assume are the exception to general body of passengers with disabilities that you encounter. If I were the cruise line, with the dog situation, I would consider using my right to remove passengers. With the scooter incident, this situation and response could arise where any passenger hurts another and is not unique to disability. There is no cruiseline responsibility so let the passenger sue - or give OBC or a free cruise and gain a lifetime customer. Perhaps use the staff doctor whose paid fees will ensure the customer returns to your cruise line because that accident can happen anywhere, but it is the response that will determine that customers next choice. The hiking instance is a toughy, because it happened in the US and it was a ship excursion so the line has a duty to accommodate. Having said this, there is more than one way to accommodate - so work at the best solution. Some accommodations are expensive, some cost nothing (the average amount for an employer is $500 - much less on vacation). And yes, this will be absorbed by the ship and the passengers, but so are the costs of food for those who eat multiple entres every night and or those who go to all events where free champaign is served.

Having stated the above, I cannot comprehend why anyone would want to keep barriers to accessibility. More important than the above reasons, however, we accommodate people because it is the right thing to do. We must respect the dignity and choices of people with disabilities. The issue is not about feeling sorry for people with disabilities and doing what you can for them. It is about dignity and respect and fulfilling your legal obligation to accommodate.

Finally, (be warned this is my personal issue, not a principled argument) I would like to know what cruise line you work for as I would not spend my money (and in all likelihood discourage my network of people from spending their money) on a line that either promotes or employs people with such an attitude.

Putting on the flame retardant suit now...:confused:

Response to Jim Gallup

I think the cruise lines need to develop a little backbone and common sense. Properly trained and certified service dogs are not left in the cabin - they are with their partner at all times or what's the point of having them. These dogs also know how to behave in public. the dogs who were running wild were obviously family pets. Cruise lines should require an official certifcation before they allow a service dog on board.

The ADA says that safety comes first and mountain climbing for most blind people is not safe. The cruise company and tour company did not have to go to such lengths to cater to this demanding couple. No court would have ruled in their favor.

Ok, be warned. I'm about to flame Jim Gallops in a lengthy way for his comments and I am ready to be flamed in response. :eek: However, I hope the majority of people can understand and support my position.

 

I am outraged after reading Jim Gallups comments earlier in this thread. I feel like equality rights have been set back 20 years (i.e. Why don't people with disabilities just stop cruising and participating in life? Heck, why don't we just institutionalize "them" all so the rest of the world has no responsibility to interact with "them" and treat "them" with respect?) Ok, maybe I exaggerated with that institutionalization point: that was 60 years ago!

 

Most of Jim's statements relate back to the state of the country prior to the enactment of the ADA. And yes, businesses were upset that they bared responsibility for complying with new accessibility standards because it cost them money - particularly retrofiting buildings. But guess what? They got over it, and they learned a few things in the process including the following:<snip>...

 

Having stated the above, I cannot comprehend why anyone would want to keep barriers to accessibility. More important than the above reasons, however, we accommodate people because it is the right thing to do. We must respect the dignity and choices of people with disabilities. The issue is not about feeling sorry for people with disabilities and doing what you can for them. It is about dignity and respect and fulfilling your legal obligation to accommodate.

 

Finally, (be warned this is my personal issue, not a principled argument) I would like to know what cruise line you work for as I would not spend my money (and in all likelihood discourage my network of people from spending their money) on a line that either promotes or employs people with such an attitude.

 

Putting on the flame retardant suit now...:confused:

Beautifully said Loreo!!! I'm in total agreement.

IrisF

Ok I am not sure who will be flaming me but am sure someone will lol. Ok to start, I use a wheelchair that my husband or someone, hs to push because not only do I have neuropathy of both legs/feet but also both hands from B12 deficiency neuropathy. I can walk for a bit but not long distance with a sturdy cane.

After reading Jims posts, I can understand the reasoning on behalf of the cruise line. Jim, I would ask for very high pay for your job if I were you. Have a cousin that is disney customer support..she is aging fast lol.

The couple who were blind, sorry but I feel if they wanted to go on the hike, they should of been allowed but only if they paid for the staff it would take. The disabled to have to be reasonable too and I feel being blind on a dangerous hike even for sighted ppl..is unreasonable on their side. That would be like me insisting carnival make accomadations for me to drive those 4 wheel vehicle trips lol. While I would love to do it, I am not unreasonable either. I am just hoping to go on the beach & lunch buffet cruise :).

I can understand the safety hazards of the scooters/chairs along with the emergency problems.

The idea of a parking "garage" is a very good one I think. Each section I am sure has some kind of wasted space. Small closet size area could be made into this with special wiring safety equipement for the scooters. Maybe cabin stewards could be incharge of parking these. For in the rooms, passengers could also bring a travel wc for their use. Passengers could many times make due with folding shower chairs.

On airlines, if a person is very overweight..they have to pay for two seats because the airline should not lose out on that space cost. So if a person requires a larger room/suite , they should have to pay the going price for such...but not more than average customer would. I do think 5 HC cabins is too small a number for any ship. If it isnt sold, its not like they can't upgrade someone from windowless room to it or sell it on one of those last minute specials.

Jim made a good point about many of these countries less modern areas. I do think cruise lines could afford to try a bit harder for atleast a small van or something for ppl with disabilities for tours etc as they sure charge able bodied ppl pretty high prices for outings, am sure they would charge what it would cost them.

Even in schools if your disabled child needs special care..the parents are expected to provide it or hire someone to do it. I think we are expecting well above service from these ppl at times. I do feel public access to all boat facilities should be available to the disabled as any public place has to be and should receive equal treatment. I think maybe a few comments towards Jim have been pretty harsh when in reality..he is trying to help us to understand it from the companys side. Not saying many things can be changed to be better but he doesn't make the rules, but is trying to make you understand the safety hazards to all. While I am very careful with my cane or wc..I have seen disabled ppl who are not, and have seen a few the actually "appeared" to aim for young ppl. The person who injures another with their wc..should be held legally responsible but am sure teh cruise line would have to go thro lengthy court battle and in end..cheaper for them to pay it and pass it on to all customers. Lets agree that cruise lines are in the business to make a lot of money...not as a public service. As I am disabled, I am not trying to be harsh on the handicapped at all but just trying to get ppl to sit back and calmly see it from both sides from a FINANCIAL view..and that isn't even covering the higher insurance cost for having disabled passengers.

I saw on one thread somewhere lol..here though, a person with MRSA in a wound of their body, asking about possibility of infection to THEM. MRSA is an extremely infectious bacteria and I can't believe they would even consider exposing other ppl to that rather than worrying about themselves. I can't believe they are actually being allowed to travel with that infectious disease that is so absolutely resistant to antibiotics. So you see disabled ppl can be selfish too at times. to be fair tho, once you have MRSA, you always carry it and that is how is spreads through nursing homes so fast. I think in her case, her doctor never fully explained it to her.

Education can go both ways as can being reasonable. I truely understand our fight but until we all stand in each others shoes together, we won't accomplish much. Granted Jim was a bit overboard (excuse the pun lol ) but feel like maybe we pushed him into being defensive just as his further may have made some defensive. Ouch can feel the heat of the flames lol. Maybe just me but can see both sides of this .

Current US Coast Guard and Flag state Regulations do not allow the construction of a cruise ship with public parking for scooters and wheel chairs.

 

US Coast Guard regulations do not permit the charging of an electric scooter in a ship's corridor. They see it as a fire hazard.

 

Those same organizations also forbid the parking of these vehicles in public corridors. They are a serious danger to passengers trying to escape a ship in an emergency situation.

 

What if the ship has an enclosed, fireproof, "garage" approved by the Coast Guard (assuming they would approve such a thing) to park all the scooters? Does anyone think that the ship's crew would have enough time - in an emergency situation, possibly with few or no functioning elevators - to get all those scooters to the proper cabins in time to save your lives?

 

So the cruise line installs one of those problematic automatic doors on your handicap cabin. Then there is a fire and/or power outage and the door stops functioning. How do you plan to get out of the cabin? If you call the locksmith, he might get to you in a day or two.

 

Right now a large ship can afford to assign one or two dozen crew to assist handicapped passengers in case of emergency/fire. All the other crew have other safety duties for the other passengers and crew in emergencies. These duties are mandated by US Coast Guard and Flag State Regulations. What happens when you add 25 or 50 more handicapped cabins that are large enough to accommodate your scooter or wheel chair, thereby encouraging additional handicapped passengers to sail on the ship? Who is going to assist all of them them in an emergency? Shall we force the cruise lines to convert revenue cabins to hold the additional crew required for these duties? Who is going to pay the millions of dollars required to do that, and who is going to pay a lot more for their cruise to make up the lost revenue fromn the cabins that were converted for crew use?

 

What happens to hundreds or thousands of panicking passengers when there are 50 or 100 wheelchairs and scooters blocking key escape routes?

 

You book a shore excursion on a cruise. The bus has 5 passengers in scooters, 4 in wheelchairs, and 30 who have no handicap. The tour is 5 hours long. Every time the bus stops somewhere, it takes 40 minutes to get the scooters and wheelchairs off the bus and another 40 minutes to get them back on. Do you want a refund?

 

A handicapped person takes a cruise with his scooter. The ship is ADA compliant when he boards in Miami. Unfortunately, most of the Caribbean, all of Mexico and South America, most of Europe, and just about all of Asia are not ADA Compliant - and most of these areas probably never will be. What do you expect the cruise line to do?

I speak to many handicapped passengers who blame me personally and my company generally because the Mexican Government does not make special provisions for them. I feel quite bad for them. But what do they expect me or my employer to do?

That is why I cruise on Celebrity Solstice Ships, they have a better attitude towards handicap cruise customers. All the handicap cabins have automatic doors and quite a lot of handicap restrooms thru out the ship. Makes traveling a lot better for handicap people. Sorry. A lot of the cruise lines, have such a bad attitude. But of course,everything now is about making more and more money so I guess they don't want our business, There are many vacation places in America that are a lot more Handicap friendly and want our business.So I have been 0n 15 various cruises and now I am staying with Celebrity Solstice ships 3 times a year.

Well Jim Gallup, let me just add my two cents worth here.

 

I am a scooter user and have found that it is not a good idea to sign up for most ship's excursions. The Excursion Desk employees rarely know anything about what is offered beyond what they read that is in my cruise documents. Having done ship's tours a few times, and selecting carefully the least "arduous" choices, I have found as many as 50 stairs to climb, very steep hills, wonderful bus drivers who where willing to go the extra mile and people who thought I shouldn't be there at all.

 

Most ports on the islands I have been to and stops in Mexico, Costa Rica, etc have been at least partially accessible to me if I was willing to "go it on my own". So, that is what my DH and I usually do. The ships don't even provide accessible transportation into the nearest town - or, if they do it is VERY rare. We have learned to seek out the transporters on our own and are ALWAYS successful.

 

I must say that the ship's crew have always been most helpful when it comes to assisting me on or off the ship where assistance has been necessary. On those cruise lines that "allow it" they have also been very helpful with the tenders.

 

I have never seen an "automatic" door that could not be opened manually. Please correct me if I am wrong about this.

 

What more would I like the cruise lines to do?

1.Make transportation from the port into the nearest town available to everyone. If we can find willing transporters on our own then you know they are available.

2.Have some cabins that are accessible to wheelchair and scooter users that do not need a fully accessible cabin. i.e. they can walk enough to use a standard cabin and bathroom, but need wider doors and turnaround room in the cabin.

3.Restrict the issuance of the few handicapped cabins that are available to those that really need them. If that requires a doctor's prescription, so be it.

4.And make accessible cabins and/or doors available in all categories.

 

What would I like you personally to do? Try using a scooter for your primary transportation for three or four days, then come back here and post again. You may have a different attitude.

 

I will get off my soap box now,

IrisF

I have found that the Best Cruise ships for using a rental Motorized scooter in my handicap cabin is on any Celebrity Solstices 5 ships. Each handicap stateroom has an automatic door both to go in and get out of the cabin. They also have thru out the ship many handicap restrooms with automatic doors as well. The only trouble I have is when we dock and they use a tender and then I stay on board,But that day for me is so great,i feel I have this great ship to myself and so enjoy those days. When we dock in posts I drive off with my scooter and can be stored on many tour buses and I can enjoy tours. The sad problem is most cruise lines have very little tour help information when it comes to handicap tours and so I rearch a lot of the information on my own first then send emails to the special needs people. And go from there. I love to cruise and it is worth my effort. Thanks Harris Wilensky

I have found that the Best Cruise ships for using a rental Motorized scooter in my handicap cabin is on any Celebrity Solstices 5 ships. Each handicap stateroom has an automatic door both to go in and get out of the cabin. They also have thru out the ship many handicap restrooms with automatic doors as well. The only trouble I have is when we dock and they use a tender and then I stay on board,But that day for me is so great,i feel I have this great ship to myself and so enjoy those days. When we dock in posts I drive off with my scooter and can be stored on many tour buses and I can enjoy tours. The sad problem is most cruise lines have very little tour help information when it comes to handicap tours and so I rearch a lot of the information on my own first then send emails to the special needs people. And go from there. I love to cruise and it is worth my effort. Thanks Harris Wilensky

Royal Caribbean Oasis class (Oasis and Allure) all have automatic restroom doors on all the public restrooms. One to get into the restroom itself and one for the door to the accessible stall. No automatic doors for the cabins themselves. Getting on and off both of these ships was never a problem but we always docked, no tenders. Also in the Windjammer, there were always two or three tables reserved for wheelchair cruisers.

I am a full time wheelchair user for 23 years. I enjoy cruising because my hotel moves and I get to see new places. I understand my limitations, I know what I can do and what to avoid. Would I love to walk, run jump again sure.,that isn't happening. I try to run under the radar, not using my handicap to get me anywhere. Some people make a seen, try to be noticed, try to get whatever they can. I have read the comments above , I agree with the person who works on the ship. People like to complain, would it be great to have a bunch of wheelchair excursions at every port, sure, practical no. Not knocking anyone who has a hidden handicap but people abuse the "Handicapped" privileges. Being overweight or just lazy does not fit into that category. Do your research learn what you can & cannot do on board and live with it. If you see a manual Quickie wheelchair on your next cruise doing laps or serving myself in the buffet & smiling that would be me

I have cruised more than 20 times with a Service Dog and I've witnessed other folks onboard some of these cruises with SD's too. Some of them are more consciences then others and some should be "called-out" for some of their behavior. But, all and all the person who uses a Service Dog and chooses to cruise as their vacation choice is respectful of others and cognizant of fellow passengers when it comes to their dogs.

Some folks are allergic, fearful and just don't like dogs and I can sense them right away, as can my dog. I respect their feelings and stay away from them.

If a passenger allows their dog to jump in the pool the passenger should be fined or asked to disembark the ship at the next port. This behavior breaks all the DOJ/ADA rules and the ship would not and could not get in trouble for doing so. Also a dog using anything but the "potty box" to eliminate on is also a rule breaker. Accidents can happen and should be treated accordingly. The handler should have potty bags with them and be responsible to clean-up after their dog!

A Service Dog is NEVER left in the cabin by itself for an entire week......I don't believe this happened....if it did, again the handler and the dog should be asked to leave the ship. What service is the dog providing if they're separated?

I have a blog under Special Interest Cruising - Disabled Cruising- Cruising With a Service Dog-Everything You Ever Wanted To Know......Check it out...

Roz