OceanCruise

On 9/3/2023 at 3:49 PM, Clemmnj said:

I guess I will miss what is now gone no matter what it is because I’m sure to notice it. Things like embarkation champagne and canapés are little things in the grand scheme of things and no one wants to be thinking that the vacation that they planned and saved for is not up to what they were anticipating. And that anticipation comes from past experience. I wouldn’t miss what I never had but these little things add up. And if the food has declined it could certainly ruin the cruise since it is a long one. No one wants to be bored by the food or have it be of mediocre quality. That’s a deal breaker for me. 

I agree. We are Elite Plus and have 2 cruises booked in 2024 in a Sky Suite. We had agonized over even booking at the current inflated rates but did so (prior to the recent changes) because we had missed out on several years of cruising due to Covid. We had always loved Celebrity's consistent, premium product we received over the past 20+ years and felt secure in booking knowing we could easily change our cruises to another itinerary/better deal with only a $100pp change fee which we were willing to risk. Now, instead of being a Celebrity cheerleader and feeling my typical excitement and anticipation for our upcoming 2 cruises, I instead feel buyer's remorse because the product is now diminished significantly after the fact. It sounds dramatic but I feel taken advantage of and can almost hear Celebrity saying "ha, ha sucker!". I am especially upset because we are now basically "stuck" taking 2 Celebrity cruises (given who knows what else they may change or take away next at whim) unless we want to completely lose our large deposits (Of course that is why the refundable deposit is so high as a deterrent to that strategy). How could Celebrity be so tone-deaf as to allow themselves to go so quickly from being a beloved "luxury" cruise line to alienating their loyal base and being referred to as Motel 6 in Cruise Critic threads? Did they not learn from the Bud Light fiasco that once a reputation is tarnished it is hard to recover? As a shareholder, that also concerns me.  Given the trajectory of the increasing Celebrity prices and loss of amenities, add me to the list of those who will be looking at other cruise lines or luxury land-based vacations after this.

We all need to fill out those mid-cruise comment cards and post-cruise surveys with our dissatisfaction of the specific Sky Suite changes that negatively impact our cruise (making it clear it is not an individual staff person's fault but rather Celebrity policy). The Food and Beverage Managers and Hotel Managers take that feedback seriously and hopefully are in a position to communicate to Corporate.

We usually cruise in Sky Suites and remember when these had a Room Steward, Assistant Room Steward AND a Butler. We are not demanding people but appreciated never having to waste time hunting down staff to ask for a simple snack later in the day, handle the laundry (and find the lost item), answer a question, or arrange for room service breakfast the next day (always presented with a smile and Butler insisting he pour the coffee for us). We would always see one of the assigned room staff in the hall whenever we went too and from our room and it was super easy to make requests such as for a maintenance issue, needing more towels, obtaining a pen/paper, or asking for an extra daily activity program at turndown. In the "good old days" we didn't have to wait on hold on the phone (hoping our request would actually be fulfilled and in a timely manner), schlep to the Retreat lounge or keep searching up and down the hallway for staff. We are paying premium prices for EASY and that is what I want on a vacation. Plus, we appreciated the Butler surprising us with flowers, an unexpected snack, asking us if we wanted afternoon tea in the room, etc. that made us feel pampered. Now there is just an overworked glorified Room Steward (costing us triple the gratuities and more than double the cruise price as previously) and the illusion of a Retreat Butler. 

1 hour ago, micruiser2002 said:

Don’t they also limit how much you can buy?  I could only get a certain amount for my October cruise.

There was a limit (I think $250 pp in five $50 increments) but I was under the limit and my spouse had not purchased any casino credit yet.

I just checked my two booked 2024 cruises and there is no longer an option to pre-purchase casino credits in my cruise planner. I already had purchased some for both cruises with OBC awhile ago that included the pre-purchase 10% bonus. I certainly hope Celebrity will still honor that.

I always wonder how many people actually use the minibar and pay the very inflated prices for items, especially when so many cruisers have a drink package. Is it really that profitable for the cruiseline, given the staff time needed to fill, replenish and bill for it? Do passengers truly want this convenience so they don't have to walk to a bar? Do the cruiselines "prey" on people (or kids) who consume the items by mistake, not realizing they have to pay for it?  I also always wonder how long the items have been there and end up being expired.

Although tips will go to the "Retreat team" according to the website, it seems to me that it will now be awkward not to tip the random team member who delivers our room service breakfast or coffee/snacks in the afternoon even though this service is a perk of the Sky Suite.  We would always tip our dedicated butler and room steward extra at the end of the cruise but will the random room service delivery people expect an additional tip each time we get something delivered?

I miss Caribbean night by the pool where there would be ice carvings, food stations, and the waiters would parade around with artistic carved watermelons. I am also nostalgic for the midnight grand buffet with the chocolate fountains and truly amazing presentations. I am old enough to remember when they had midnight buffets every night of the cruise (although I realize there was a lot of food waste and it was labor intensive). I do not miss the baked alaska flambe in the MDR but I did love the Cova chocolates they would leave in the room every night. Today's cruisers will not experience the elegant ambiance of formal night with most women in beautiful long gowns and 99% of men in tuxes (a tuxedo rental would be waiting in the room if the guy didn't own one). 

The end MC suites are better than the middle ones IMO as you have a partial side balcony view in addition to the front view (plus I think those balconies are slightly bigger). MC suites are also in a good location mid-ship. The MC only goes up and down once or twice a day with no one on it. You might hear the mechanics and see it as it is going by your stateroom but, it only takes a few minutes and is not really an issue. 

You could get a handicapped-accessible cabin (more room but lower bed and different bathroom set-up). Also, would you be ok with a sunset suite that involves a very long walk to various venues?  Some suites are also close to the front of the ship so more motion might be felt. Personally, I like the Magic Carpet suites. 

We are Elite Plus so have been very loyal to Celebrity. We have always loved the product and, while disappointed with some of the cost cutting measures like no champagne at embarkation, increased specialty dining prices, and elimination of trivia prizes, we have just shrugged off those changes. However, between the recent vaping debacle and the elimination of personal butlers, Celebrity has now really, really rubbed me the wrong way.  I am angry at the complete lack of communication to this "bait and switch" and their not offering ANY gesture of goodwill to help compensate for a major perk they prominently advertised and have taken away for my two 2024 cruises in a Sky Suite. Plus, we are now locked into nonrefundable deposits (that they coincidentally just increased recently). Not a good business decision to piss off loyal customers as I will no longer tout this line to my friends as I have in the past and I will absolutely look at other vacation options given the price point of suites. As others have said, do we really need a butler? No, but that is not the point. We had budgeted carefully for the past 2 years and thought long and hard about where to spend our vacation dollars. At $500pp per night [$1000 daily per couple] --more than double the price of a veranda-- that is a lot of money for our upcoming 2 cruises in a Sky Suite. Also, with All-Included, we really don't benefit from most of the Elite Plus perks we earned. We are not demanding customers but, for that kind of money we do expect a certain level of "pampering" (i.e. good food, anticipation of needs, prompt service, twice daily housekeeping, etc.) and a relatively seamless vacation. For the same amount of money we could have very easily booked a five-star hotel instead. Yes, I know these are "elitist-sounding" first-world problems but I hate feeling ripped off.

Celebrity changed their website recently. For Sky Suites it indicates "butler and Retreat team" and under list of AI amenities it says:

"If you’re wondering when and how much to tip your dedicated service team — don’t. We’ve got it covered. As a guest of The Retreat, all your gratuities are prepaid".

Are the corner aft suites smaller than the other Sky Suites on the Beyond? It seems that way from looking at the deck plans. Also, is there any real advantage to the Aqua Sky Suites over Magic Carpet and regular Sky Suites besides location and ability to dine in Blu? Are the bathrooms or furnishings better? They are significantly more expensive than the Magic Carpet and regular SS but have the same square footage. Most of the other listed "perks" for Aqua Suites seem to have no tangible value, such as bottled water and upgraded toiletries. Am I missing something to justify the increased cost?

When we have booked Sky Suites in the past we have always tipped our butler (and room attendant) extra at the end of the trip rather than each time the butler brought snacks, room service, did laundry, ran an errand, etc.  We enjoyed the pleasant interactions and always felt well cared for as they would anticipate our needs (such as when my spouse sustained an injury). What are we expected to do now that it may be a different (and impersonal) butler team member for any service we request?  Although Retreat gratuities are prepaid it would seem kind of awkward not to tip at time of service but is that really expected for routine types of tasks since "butler service" is already included in the very expensive Retreat fares? Will the butler team create their own list of "good tippers" and "non-tippers" that affects promptness and service during that cruise? We never ask the butler for time-intensive things like arranging a party,  decorating the room, or serving meals in the room course by course, etc. but I could see how those types of things would warrant an extra tip at time of service. 

3 hours ago, kathy49 said:

Here is US I have never heard an efficacy rate of more than 95% and probably less on certain adults with compromised immune systems. That number if for Pfizer and Moderna and is less for J and J. We know nothing about these passengers yet...what they did while in port, their general health and age group and what vaccine they had. Look forward to more details and assume CDC watching this for data. We are all still in a giant experiment with a vaccine not yet approved except for emergency use and a virus which continues to mutate. I think many tend to want to ignore some of the risk in order to feel better about traveling.

When talking about vaccine efficacy there is a huge difference between relative risk reduction (RRR) and absolute risk reduction (ARR). The 95% number being reported is the relative risk reduction (RRR) whereas the absolute risk reduction (ARR) is only approximately 1%. This Lancet article explains the difference. 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanmic/article/PIIS2666-5247(21)00069-0/fulltext 

From the article:

"fully understanding the efficacy and effectiveness of vaccines is less straightforward than it might seem....the absolute risk reduction (ARR), which is the difference between attack rates with and without a vaccine, considers the whole population. ARRs tend to be ignored because they give a much less impressive effect size than RRRs: 1·3% for the AstraZeneca–Oxford, 1·2% for the Moderna–NIH, 1·2% for the J&J, 0·93% for the Gamaleya, and 0·84% for the Pfizer–BioNTech vaccines."

10 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

So what is your point?  Do you feel that there shouldn't be a vaccine?

My point is that are risks that could be deadly because this vaccine is experimental. There has been a lot of hysteria to scare people and influence behavior. The vaccine uses a technology different than traditional vaccines. It should be an individual decision whether or not to take the vaccine as long as the person is fully informed of the risks. Prior attempts at developing coronavirus vaccines have caused deaths in animals when later exposed to the virus which is why those vaccines were not approved. There are no long-term studies to ensure these same harmful effects will not occur in humans because this has never been done before.  People need to be fully informed and, unfortunately, doctors speaking out about possible harmful effects are being censored. All we hear about 24/7 is to wear masks and get the vaccine. Why isn't Dr Fauci talking at all about ways to build up natural immunity such as exercise, good nutrition, socialization, sunshine/Vitamin D (research shows Vitamin D deficiency is linked to Covid deaths)? I also find it curious that the flu seems to have almost disappeared this year.

2 minutes ago, time4u2go said:

The answers you provided are for the short term.  The benefit of the vaccine is that it will reduce the number of infected people enough to bring the transmission/infection rate down enough to allow people to resume a more normal life.  Another benefit is that it will reduce the number of infections among more vulnerable people, potentially saving their lives.

How do you know this? There is no long-term data. The need for additional shots indicates that immunity is not lasting. Remember, every drug that has been recalled due to harmful effects was initially deemed safe and was FDA approved. Remember thalidomiode?

7 minutes ago, lizzius said:

No, they didn't. For instance, Pfizer/BioNtech had preclinical trials in rhesus macaques which demonstrated efficacy against infection and disease in the primate model. 

They did not complete full animal trials before testing on humans as is standard in vaccine development. There are no long-term completed clinical trials on animals and no FDA approval. Humans are being tested along with the animals

Per your article: "Pfizer and Moderna were given approval to simultaneously test their vaccines on animals while they were conducting Phase 1 trials on humans. The vaccines were tested on mice and macaques."

According to Dr. Fauci and CDC:

Will the vaccine actually prevent you from getting Covid?---No 

Will the vaccine prevent you from giving Covid to others?---No

Is it FDA approved?---No (only has emergency use authorization)

Do you need to have resuscitation equipment available when vaccine is administered?---Yes

Will the vaccine give you long-standing immunity?---No (likely need booster shots)

Can you stop wearing the mask after the vaccine?---No

Do you still have to social distance after getting the vaccine?---Yes

Can you get together with family and friends after getting the vaccine?---Not really recommended

Can you go to restaurants and theaters after getting the vaccine?---No

So, what is really the benefit of the experimental Covid vaccine that uses a completely new technology, the pharmaceutical companies cannot be held liable for, and we don't have long-term safety data on?

This vaccine is not FDA approved and, as such, is designated as experimental. No vaccine has ever been approved for other coronaviruses (i.e. SARS, MERS, common cold) because in the animal trials, many of the animals died when later exposed to the virus they were vaccinated for (this effect is called antibody dependent enhancement/pathogenic priming). The experimental Covid-19 vaccines skipped the animal trials in order to be rushed to market. There is no long-term data to know if this same harmful phenomena will occur in humans. That is a risk I am not willing to take at this time.

There are also concerns the mRNA vaccines might create a risk later on for neurodegenerative conditions such as Alzheimer's or ALS according to this research article in December 2020 Microbiology and Infectious Disease Journal 

https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

11 minutes ago, legaljen1969 said:

Not that it is anyone's business whether I have other underlying health issues, but I do.   My PCM is just cautious and wants to see a little more of the long view of what is going to happen. 

As recently as the past couple of weeks, news has come out about the vaccines causing swollen lymph nodes and advising women not to have their mammograms any sooner than 6 weeks after a vaccine because the lymph node swelling is likely to cause doctors to encourage moving forward with a biopsy. Not that it is bad to encourage a woman to have a biopsy, but having already been down that road with the scare of breast cancer- I can only imagine how frightening that could be for women who might have to go through that stress unneccesarily.   

They have not said I cannot get the vaccine or should not get the vaccine- just that they would prefer I definitely wait my turn and not be in a hurry to get the first available appointment.  I have a close friend who also had breast cancer and has never had any problems with lymphedema in the year since her surgery.  She got the shot (in the opposite side arm because, obviously, you don't do shots or blood draws or blood pressures in the surgical arm) and she ended up having serious lymphedema.  

I just want to have a longer view of the possible effects.   I guess people are comfortable getting the vaccine- and if it makes them feel safer that is fine.  However, right now knowing it could make me sicker I am willing to wait. 

This research article in December 2020 Microbiology and Infectious Disease Journal also discusses how the mRNA vaccines might create a risk later on for neurodegenerative conditions such as Alzheimer's or ALS. 

https://scivisionpub.com/pdfs/covid19-rna-based-vaccines-and-the-risk-of-prion-disease-1503.pdf

Additionally, the reason no vaccine has ever been approved for other coronaviruses  (i.e. SARS, MERS, common cold) is that in the animal trials, many of the animals died when later exposed to the virus they were vaccinated for (this effect is called antibody dependent enhancement/pathogenic priming). The Covid-19 vaccines were rushed to market and skipped the animal trials. There is no long-term data to know if this same phenomena will occur in humans.

The vaccine is not FDA approved (only has emergency use authorization) and, as such, is considered an experimental treatment. Experimental treatments require consent of the individual and cannot be mandated or coerced according to Federal law and the Nuremberg Code. 

https://www.statnews.com/2021/02/23/federal-law-prohibits-employers-and-others-from-requiring-vaccination-with-a-covid-19-vaccine-distributed-under-an-eua/?utm_content=buffer5911c&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=twitter_o

Also from WHO:

"About one-quarter of the world's population has a TB infection, which means people have been infected by TB bacteria but are not (yet) ill with the disease and cannot transmit it.

People infected with TB bacteria have a 5–15% lifetime risk of falling ill with TB."

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/tuberculosis

30 minutes ago, terrydtx said:

I do not know where you get your facts, but according to the TBFacts.org website only 22,200 adults died from TB in all of the Americas in 2019. That number includes North, Central and all of South America. That number is less than 10% of the total number of Covid deaths in just the United States. The 2019 TB deaths in the United States was 617 of the 22,200 in all of the Americas.. The highest TB mortality rates are in South East Asia and Africa. Travel to some of these highest TB areas requires vaccination for TB. Covid can not be compared to TB.

• A total of 1.4 million people died from TB in 2019 (including 208 000 people with HIV). Worldwide, TB is one of the top 10 causes of death and the leading cause from a single infectious agent (above HIV/AIDS).

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/tuberculosis

Up until this time there has never been a vaccine developed for any coronavirus such as SARs and the common cold. All vaccines have some risk but we really do not know what the long-term effects of the Covid vaccine will be, particularly a new type of vaccine that affects RNA. 

The National Vaccine Injury Compensation Trust Fund has paid out over 4 billion dollars since the 80's. 

https://www.hrsa.gov/vaccine-compensation/about/index.html