dougnewmanatsea

The Emerald Seas was my first cruise, back in 1983. We had a great time on that trip! Back then, the name of the line was Eastern Cruise Lines, I guess a forerunner of Admiral!

Yes, Eastern was one of three companies that merged to become Admiral: Eastern Cruise Line and Western Cruise Line (really the same company; one operated on the East Coast and one on the West Coast) and Sundance Cruises.

 

Eastern gave them EMERALD SEAS, Western AZURE SEAS, and Sundance STARDANCER.

 

In the early '90s, the relatively new cruise ferry STARDANCER became VIKING SERENADE and replaced AZURE SEAS on short cruises from LA (she's now ISLAND ESCAPE with Island Cruises, a joint venture between RCI and UK tour operator First Choice that sells Med cruises to the UK market in the summer and South American cruises to the Brazilian market in winter), while NORDIC EMPRESS replaced EMERALD SEAS from Miami.

 

Eastern have a very long and fascinating history - they were really the first of the Miami cruise lines, well before NCL - but I don't have the time to go into that right now... More another time.

 

Incidentally, on the topic of REGAL EMPRESS... Regal Cruises did shut down in 2003 but the ship is now operating for Imperial Majesty Cruises on 2-day cruises from Ft. Lauderdale. She replaced OCEANBREEZE (ironically this was once AZURE SEAS, the former Admiral ship) which was scrapped in Bangladesh.

 

For a history of REGAL EMPRESS from Maritime Matters, see here. For a history of Imperial Majesty's first ship, OCEANBREEZE, see here. Imperial Majesty's own official web site can be seen here and you can also visit our own Imperial Majesty board here.

 

For CARIBE fans living in Florida, a short cruise on REGAL EMPRESS might be an interesting nostalgic getaway. From what I understand, she's in better shape than she has been in some time, and she's now the last classic liner operating from a US port.

1]I have since discovered that it was not a Commodore ship in 1990, it was the Bermuda Sun I sailed.

Are you sure it was BERMUDA SUN and not BERMUDA STAR? Only reason I ask is that I don't believe there ever was a ship called BERMUDA SUN in the first place, or at least I can't think of one at the moment.

 

If you do mean BERMUDA STAR, then you were on Bermuda Star Line right before they merged with commodore. The ship became ENCHANTED ISLE. See here for more.

 

3] The cruiseline was Seawind and the ship was the Crown, I think on the Aruba cruise.

SEAWIND CROWN was actually a rather nice vessel... I thought of her but couldn't decide what island it was she operated from. See here for more on this ship.

ENCHANTED Capri was the Commodore ship that had windows in the swimming pool.

Tarheelbelle couldn't have been on ENCHANTED CAPRI - Commodore didn't have her until 1998.

Commodore ship from New Orleans was probably either ENCHANTED ISLE or ENCHANTED SEAS.

 

EMERALD SEAS was Admiral Cruises. 1992 was her last season in North America, and also the last season for Admiral, which was a low-end subsidiary of Royal Caribbean (hence using CocoCay). NORDIC EMPRESS (now EMPRESS OF THE SEAS) was EMERALD SEAS' de facto replacement.

 

Your Southern Caribbean cruise from Aruba is the hardest to pinpoint, but I think Dolphin's OCEANBREEZE may have done something along those lines.

The old Veracruz is alive and well. It is now sailing out of FLL under a new owner and name. I saw it in April of this year, and was quite surprised.. I was on it years ago on a cruise to nowhere.. I's blue and white now ans I believe it's new name was Royal Princess, but not a 100% sure of that..

You must be thinking of REGAL EMPRESS, which is not the same ship as VERACRUZ. As you can see from AJL's link above, VERACRUZ burned and sank in Greece in 1990.

 

REGAL EMPRESS is the former OLYMPIA/CARIBE. You can read more about her here.

Captain Romano became captain of the new Sun Princess in 1995. I don't know where he is now.

In the now-nixed Captain's Circle newsletter they used to feature a retired Princess captain each issue, telling what they are up to etc.

 

Unfortunately I have not seen a real Captain's Circle newsletter for probably more than a year - instead they send out what is basically an advertising flyer for future cruises but nothing more.

 

Come to think of it, I think the NCL Latitudes newsletter is gone too, and I'm not sure if RCI's Crown & Anchor newsletter is still around (maybe in a diluted form). HAL never send anything here at all so I have no idea if the Mariner newsletter still exists or not.

Its a shame this business plan was a scam, because such a thing probably could work.

I certainly think it could. For one thing, QM2 does not provide a direct connection with Continental Europe, which a Le Havre-Southampton-Montreal service would. Also, Montreal is convenient not just for Canadians but also for those living in the Midwestern US. And there is still a tremendous amount of sentiment in France for the ship.

 

That said, it would require a far greater investment than was proposed (a $35m for a re-engining is just absurd) - perhaps even nearly as much as it would cost to build a new ship - and at any rate I doubt the party proposing that plan could even come up with enough money to buy the ship as she sits, let alone to actually start up such an operation.

 

Too bad, I think it would have been a really fascinating venture.

Doug, do you really think there's room for another transatlantic liner?

Quite possibly... Especially on a different route. I believe the route in question here was Le Havre-Southampton-Quebec City which is not really in direct competition with QM2. Also I believe they were planning on staying in a lower price bracket.

 

Cunard is getting by with a mere 13 crossings per year, is it safe to assume that that's the maximum demand

No, I don't think that's maximum demand at all. Note how in 2005 there was a significant increase in the number of crossings vs. cruises for QM2... Obviously that market is doing well.

 

I think demand well outstrips supply in the market for Atlantic crossings these days.

$25 million either means NCL is desparate to minimize their loss on this; or possibly that they may not be all that willing to sell?

Of course it's just an asking price... They can't in their right minds expect anything near $25m.

 

But then again, one never knows... The sale price of FAIR PRINCESS to the Chinese (Taiwanese? I forget) who bought her when she became CHINA SEA DISCOVERY was rumored to be in the region of $15m... She was not even for sale but these people approached P&O with the offer and let's face it, you can hardly blame them for selling! (Why the Chinese were so intent on having that ship remains a complete mystery... Perhaps some British state secrets were hidden on her unbeknownst to P&O ;) ?)

 

Let's try a little fuzzy math: as I recall, SS United States has an appraised scrap value of around $3 million, since SS Norway is 23,000 gross tons larger, would $4.3 million be about right?

I'm not sure that gross tonnage can be used as any kind of an accurate guide for scrap value... But at any rate, scrap value should be far, far less than $25m... Not even anywhere remotely in that range.

 

Could Star use her as a stationary hotel/casino, say moored in the middle of a harbor somwhere in SE Asia?

Yes, this is what popped up in my mind too... Though I think it would have to be in international waters. In Singapore there is already New Century "Cruises" who run fast ferries out to their ships (admittedly not moored, but actually just drifting out there and coming into port to provision and refuel at times) which are basically floating casinos. I don't remember all the details, except to say that I feel very bad for the former SVEA, SKYWARD, and RENAISSANCE ??? (I forget if it is III or IV...) that they're living out their twilight years (well, the former Ren "yacht" isn't in her twilight years, but the other two are) in such a service (if one could even call it active service).

 

I hadn't heard about the transatlantic rumor. I hope nobody gave that guy any money.

The whole thing was very unusual. Ironically I don't think it was a bad idea at all but it was obvious that the guy peddling it hadn't a clue what he was doing.

 

They supposedly were offering a whopping US$28m for the ship (apparently because there were "many other offers"...), and estimated a ridiculously low $35m for a complete refit including compliance with SOLAS 2010 and a new diesel-electric power plant. (I think they left out a "0" on that one!) The whole thing had my mental alarm bells ringing like crazy, and I've not heard anything about it since the initial "buzz", so I assume the whole thing was, unsurprisingly, dead on arrival.

In the meantime, she's on the market for $25 million- a small fraction of her appraised value on Star Cruises' books.

And, I might add, a good bit more than she's worth.

 

On the upside, I just heard from someone who was on her at the end of June and reports that NCL are keeping her in excellent condition. According to him there are plastic coverings over most of the furniture and carpets, painting and varnishing is going on, and the diesel auxilliary engines are providing power for the entire ship. Apparently the HVAC and electrical systems are in working order.

 

Now, what NCL are keeping her in good shape for, I haven't a clue. Presumably they're hoping to sell her to someone, though that naturally brings up the question of who would want to buy her. At $25m, my guess is that there isn't going to be a whole lot of interest.

 

A month or so ago there were rumors and a press release floating around that she was going to be bought and used on Transatlantic service between France and Quebec. The whole thing seemed more than a little fishy to me and not surprisingly the supposed owner of the company who claimed to be ready to buy her has long since vanished from the scene.

I didn't know that the Fair Majesty was the first passenger cruise newbuild by Fincantieri.

That's because she wasn't! She was from Chantiers de l'Atlantique. It was CROWN PRINCESS which was the first large passenger ship from Fincantieri in about a quarter century.

 

The contract for SITMAR FAIRMAJESTY was signed after that for what became CROWN PRINCESS, but the ship from Fincantieri took longer as they had to start from scratch while Chantiers were building cruise ships at the time the contract was signed (1986).

 

Ironically the last before her, EUGENIO C in 1966, also was for what is now a part of the Carnival family.

 

And for that matter, the first large passenger ship from Chantiers de l'Atlantique in many years was NIEUW AMSTERDAM in 1983 - yes, another Carnival brand! And Carnival got the last big passenger ships from Kockums (Sweden) and Aalborg Vaerft (Denmark), and the last from Wartsila (Finland) and the first from that same yard's new incarnation, Masa Yards! And if you count in Sitmar, FAIRSKY was the last big passenger ship from CNIM (France). And HOMERIC (became WESTERDAM and now COSTA EUROPA) was the first big cruise ship from Meyer Werft!

 

The heavy use by Carnival Corporation of Fincantieri (for many new Carnival and for most of today's HAL fleet) makes it ironic that a "Princess" ship got them into the biz.

And that a Costa ship got them out of it 20+ years earlier!

 

Of course from its formation under Mussolini through the 1960s, Fincantieri were a very major player in large passenger ships, building all of the big ships for Finmare (i.e. Italia, Lloyd Triestino, Adriatica, etc.) and many other large Italian passenger ships, including FEDERICO C and EUGENIO C.

 

Do you know what ships operated by other lines were built by Fincantieri?

If you mean non-Carnival Corporation & plc lines, from CROWN PRINCESS on... DISNEY MAGIC and WONDER are the only cruise ships that I can think of. Amazing that Fincantieri are the largest builders of cruise ships in the world and they supply Carnival Corporation & plc almost exclusively... And furthermore Carnival build at other yards too (though more at Fincantieri than anywhere else).

 

Consider that since CROWN PRINCESS in 1990, Fincantieri have supplied - if my counting is correct - eleven HAL ships (one on order - this means every single HAL newbuild from STATENDAM on!), ten Princess ships (one on order), three Costa ships (one on order), five Carnival ships (one on order) and that they currently have orders for P&O and Cunard as well! Absolutely amazing and it started with Sitmar back in the mid 1980s.

Thanks Doug, I can't believe I got Fairwind and Fairsea confused.

My personal usual mistake is writing FAIRSEA instead of FAIRSKY or vice versa. And those weren't even sisters :) .

 

I never knew about the planned sister to Fairmajesty, was it Sitmar that let the option lapse, or did Princess?

Not 100% sure on this but I think it was Sitmar.

 

Its a shame they didn't survive.

Yes, it would have been fascinating to have seen what would have happened. And also to see what would have happened to Princess, who would have been in a very bad spot had Sitmar not come up for sale at precisely the right moment.

 

I always thought it strange that Sitmar was sold off like that so soon after the rebranding scheme began and with all those expansion plans in the works- certainly didn't sound like a company ready to be unloaded.

The company was sold because of the very untimely death of Boris Vlasov. Apparently family were not particularly interested in Sitmar and P&O sensed the opportunity and made a very good offer.

 

would Fairwind and Fairsea have eventually been retired after the arrival of the new ships

I'm not sure... No doubt they would have at some point but I don't think there were immediate plans to retire them at the time that they were sold. They were actually quite up to date as literally everything but the hull, engines, and lifeboat davits (yes, lifeboat davits) dated from the early '70s and they had further gotten very large refits in the mid '80s to bring them up to the standards of the magnificent new FAIRSKY.

 

how exactly did Fairstar fit into this, wasn't she owned by Sitmar as well?

FAIRSTAR was, in essence, a vestige of Sitmar's previous life carrying emigrants from Europe to Australia. This was where Sitmar's passenger service originated just after WWII. Alexandre Vlasov was himself a refugee (and indeed so was Boris; they fled from Russia when he was a young boy) and so had a natural connection to this sort of service. FAIRSTAR was initially used on the Europe-Australia line service.

 

CARINTHIA and SYLVANIA were bought in 1968 by Sitmar with the intention of refitting them for this service, were renamed FAIRLAND (later FAIRSEA) and FAIRWIND, and continued laid-up pending conversion; however in 1970 the British contract for government-assisted immigrant passages to Australia passed on to Chandris who had also been serving the route for some time. As a response, FAIRSKY (III; the 1984 newbuild was the fourth FAIRSKY) and FAIRSTAR became full-time cruise ships from Sydney in 1973 after the loss of the subsidies proved to be the last nail in the coffin of the liner service. Meanwhile a total rethink of what to do with the two new acquisitions was necessary. In the end, the result was the formation of the Los Angeles-based Sitmar Cruises; the two ships were totally rebuilt to an extremely high standard and the rest, as they say, is history.

 

FAIRSKY and FAIRSTAR, though, maintained a separate Australian operation, not of the same standard as the US-market Sitmar ships. FAIRSKY left the fleet after a grounding in 1977 (she was salvaged but declared a constructive total loss) but FAIRSTAR continued on right through 1989 when P&O bought Sitmar. While the US-based ships went to Princess, FAIRSTAR continued on in Australia under what was initially called P&O Sitmar Cruises, complete with the swan log on her funnel. Later, that was replaced by a stylized dolphin logo and the company was renamed P&O Holidays (now P&O Cruises Australia), but she continued on until 1997 when replaced by FAIR PRINCESS (ex FAIRSEA/FAIRLAND/CARINTHIA), which was in turn replaced in 2000 by PACIFIC SKY (ex SKY PRINCESS/FAIRSTAR).

 

it was the decision of his widow to sell the Company. She did not want to run a shipping company.

This is not totally correct, as the Vlasov Group still exists today in the form of V.Ships (managers of Silversea and Radisson Seven Seas vessels among others), though they are not a shipping company per se as they manage other companies' ships (or own them and charter them to other companies). I'm not sure why Sitmar was singled out for sale; it may have had something to do with its very high value and perhaps even with P&O's desire to expand Princess quickly.

 

The ship sported the colorful "swan logo" that Host Doug mentioned, along with a completely new funnel color/symbol scheme: a dark blue funnel with a colorful seahorse insignia, so that it looked liked the "S" of Sitmar, I assumed.

The funnel insignia was the "swan logo", and yes, it was designed to look like an "S" for Sitmar. Sitmar Cruises' original logo (which was never on funnels; they maintained the traditonal buff color with blue Vlasov "V" at the time) was actually an insignia of two pieces of line (rope) intertwined in the shape of an "S" and "C" for Sitmar Cruises (I'll have to get some images here to show these different logos and paint schemes...). Today on PACIFIC SKY, you can still see interior door handles for many public rooms in the shape of that logo, one of the few vestiges of her original interiors left after big refits under Princess in 1989 and 1994.

Sorry. It's been a while.

No problem. Just didn't want to confuse the other members ;) .

 

Wasn't Fairsea renamed SitMar FairSea (stupid name) for a brief period before the Princesss takeover? I think she was the onlt Sitmar ship to get the new name scheme.

No... That was FAIRWIND. She was renamed SITMAR FAIRWIND and got the new paint scheme with the "swan" logo, which was very short-lived.

 

You may be thinking about the Fair Majesty, Sitmar's newbuild at the time Princess bought Sitmar in 1988.

SITMAR FAIRMAJESTY was actually the catalyst for the new naming scheme, and also the new corporate image, that was applied to SITMAR FAIRWIND. I actually have a photo or two of SITMAR FAIRMAJESTY on early trials painted in this new Sitmar livery but as you say she entered service as STAR PRINCESS.

 

BTW, the Fair Majesty was the first of three newbuilds ordered by Sitmar, the other two being launched as the Crown Princess and the Regal Princess.

This is correct. A myth has long proliferated that CROWN and REGAL PRINCESS were supposed to wind up as sisters to FAIRMAJESTY, but that the design was then modified by Princess. This is completely incorrect.

 

The negotiations with Fincantieri for the ships that would become CROWN and REGAL PRINCESS actually began in 1984 just after FAIRSKY's sucessful entry into service and in fact earlier than negotiations with Chantiers de l'Atlantique for the ship that became SITMAR FAIRMAJESTY/STAR PRINCESS, which were initiated shortly after the negotiations with Fincantieri commenced. The longer lead time on the Italian-built ships was due to the fact that Fincantieri had not built a large passenger ship since 1966 and so essentially needed to start a new passenger ship building operation from scratch. The design for the Fincantieri newbuilds was done in tandem with the Chantiers newbuild project which became SITMAR FAIRMAJESTY/STAR PRINCESS (options for a second ship from Chantiers were never exercised), hence the similarities, but they were never intended to be sister ships.

 

The unique "dolphin" design of the exteriors of CROWN and REGAL PRINCESS, created by Renzo Piano, were comissioned by Fincantieri and Sitmar to commemorate the fact that they were the first large Italian-built passenger ships in nearly a quarter century. The idea was originally conceived by the president of the state-owned IRI industrial conglomerate which was Fincantieri's parent company. In fact the only changes that I know of made to the ships was the elimination of the childrens' facilities, as Princess did not consider families to be part of their target market when they took over Sitmar in 1989. (Sitmar was quite family-oriented, and FAIRSKY and SITMAR FAIRMAJESTY were built with extensive childrens' facilities.) Childrens' facilities were added in 2000 to both ships though they were not as extensive as the ones in the original design. (Today Princess is probably more family-oriented even than Sitmar was in 1989.)

 

("SITMAR" was an acronym for Società Italiana Trasporti Marittimi)

In fact the name was chosen by Alexandre Vlasov at the company's founding in 1938 specifically so that it could be abbreviated "Sitmar" as an homage to the old Sitmar (Societa Italiana Servizi Marittimi) which had been absorbed into Lloyd Triestino in 1931. The idea was to capitalise on the excellent Sitmar reputation, though Vlasov's new Sitmar would wind up far eclipsing its namesake. As I recall, s everal executives of the new Sitmar actually had connections with the previous company though Vlasov himself did not that I know of.

She still had Fairwind livery but sailed as the Fair Princess. I was lucky enough to buy a Sitmar Fairwind logo necktie.

 

Our first Sitmar cruise was on her sister ship, the Fairsea (renamed the Dawn Princess).

 

Do you know where that ship is today?

You've got them in reverse... FAIRWIND became DAWN PRINCESS, FAIRSEA became FAIR PRINCESS.

 

The former CARINTHIA/FAIRSEA/FAIR PRINCESS, now called CHINA SEA DISCOVERY, is the last surviving member of the four original SAXONIA-class ships built for Cunard in 1954-57. She is laid-up at Kaoshiung, Taiwan, and has been since 2003. P&O finally sold her in 2001 to Chinese interests and she had been involved in several unsuccessful ventures in China and Taiwan before finally being laid-up at Kaoshiung in poor condition. I do not believe that any futher active trading would be possible for her and assume that she will wind up at the breakers' yard sooner or later.

 

For more on the four SAXONIA-class sisters please see this article by Ruben Goosens. Note that the article is not completely up to date. CHINA SEA DISCOVERY has not been sold to house aid workers in Iraq; that venture turned out to be a hoax. Also, FEDOR SHALYAPIN, ex IVERNIA/FRANCONIA arrived at Alang for scrapping in February 2004 and dismantling has been underway since.

Just FYI former CARIBE is REGAL EMPRESS, not REGAL PRINCESS. REGAL PRINCESS was built in 1992 for Princess (originally ordered for Sitmar who were taken over by Princess in 1989).

 

For more on REGAL EMPRESS/CARIBE, see this article by Peter Knego from Maritime matters.

I don't like the new stack color either. I quite liked the white.

 

For that matter I'm not crazy about the new logo with the porthole and compass rose, nor do I see why they changed the name from MSC Italian Cruises to just MSC Cruises; the other emphasised their Italian heritage nicely. (As MSC love to point out, they're the only Italian-owned cruise line left.)

 

Doug Newman

Cruise Critic Message Boards Host

e-mail: shiploverny AT yahoo DOT com

Maritime Matters reports that HARMONY I, formerly HAL's STATENDAM (IV), Paquet's RHAPSODY, and finally Regency's REGENT STAR, has been beached at Alang, India for scrapping.

 

For a brief history of this ship, see my Regency Fleet History (written under my previous username).

 

Doug Newman

Cruise Critic Message Boards Host

e-mail: shiploverny AT yahoo DOT com

American Family Cruises was a very short-lived venture that existed only for a few months in 1994. It was owned by Costa and was shut down by Costa not long after its introduction after it became apparent that it was a commercial failure.

 

The ship, AMERICAN ADVENTURE, was the former COSTA RIVIERA, built in 1963 as Lloyd Triestino's GUGLIELMO MARCONI. After Costa pulled the plug on American Family, the ship returned to the Costa fleet as COSTA RIVIERA. Costa kept her until 2002 when she was sold for scrap.

 

Interestingly, Costa's CEO at the time was Bruce Nierenberg, the Premier Cruises founder who came up with the Big Red Boat concept to which American Family was quite similar. Their second ship was supposed to be AMERICAN PIONEER, former EUGENIO COSTA (this ship never entered service with American Family; the company was dissolved before then); Nierenberg returned to Premier in 1999 and chartered that ship and rebuilt her to almost the exact same plans as she would have been rebuilt to if American Family had succeeded. Many elements of the American Family concept were implemented on the Big Red Boats when Nierenberg took over Premier in 1999 in a last-ditch attempt to save the company. Premier failed in 2000; THE BIG RED BOAT II (ex EUGENIO COSTA) is laid-up at Freeport, Bahamas, and will probably be scrapped in the near future.

 

As for what is done with old cruise ships - at the end of their lives nearly all of them (there are a few exceptions, e.g. QUEEN MARY) are scrapped. See here for a superb article from The Atlantic Monthly about shipbreaking. Note that the article is hosted on an arcived copy of the Atlantic's site from The Internet Archive. The article is not available on the current version of The Atlantic's site which you can see here. The article is the best I've seen about shipbreaking and details the activities at Alang, India, where COSTA RIVIERA was scrapped.

 

Doug Newman

Cruise Critic Message Boards Host

e-mail: shiploverny AT yahoo DOT com