dougnewmanatsea

I am intrigued by the sale of the Marco Polo to parties unknown. I see some speculation that she will go to Discovery.

Unfortunately I can now officially deny that rumor, as much as I wanted to believe it myself.

The strongest rumors seem to be that she will go to a German operator, probably either Phoenix Reisen or Transocean Tours. I guess I will have to learn German now, they seem to be the only ones left with a nice variety of mid-sized ships with reasonable fares ;) !

(By the way, Transocean chartered SAGAFJORD in 1997 - the year in between her Cunard and Saga careers - and called her, paradoxically, GRIPSHOLM! This was because they had originally planned to charter REGENT SEA which was originally the GRIPSHOLM and they planned on giving her back her original name. Then Regency went bankrupt and the charter went on with a different ship - indeed, GRIPSHOLM's top one-time competitor - but the same name...)

Wouldn't it be interesting if she went to Saga Cruises which will need to replace Saga Rose (sniff! sniff!) in 2.5 years.

It would be interesting indeed but I think they have set their sights on PRINSENDAM... Though for the long term they are also apparently looking at newbuilds.

MARCO POLO is not quite up to the luxury standards of the Saga ships (many fewer suites, generally smaller/plainer cabins, and she is a two-seating ship) but is nonetheless a lovely vessel. I would really like to see her as part of their Spirit of Adventure division especially as the minimum age there is only 21 ;) ... That is just a pipe dream though.

My guess is she will go the Germans though I thought it would be Discovery (wishful thinking?) until, of course, I asked them and got the unfortunate negative answer.

The whole thing about the new owners not being announced, and the future of Orient Lines not being announced, is just so incredibly odd I don't know what to think!

The name of that book sounds vaguely familiar though the author's name doesn't.

Perhaps I have seen it in the bookshop on QE2 or QM2 (where the prices are too high for me to buy anything).

Myself I have just returned from a most delightful cruise aboard MARCO POLO. The day after I returned NCL announced the ship has been sold! I now wait in suspense at news of the new owners as, rather oddly, this has not been announced yet and neither has the future of the Orient Lines brand.

It is very sad as she is a wonderful little ship, really not that different from the Saga ships aside from the age of (some of) the passengers ;) .

We had the garish colours in the Dining Room not the softer ones that are shown in the photo now. I must admit, I wondered what I had struck when we first went on board. To me the colours were so garish and hideous.

Frankly, most of the Carnival-era interiors - even with the toned-down colors - are pretty dreadful.

But it is interesting to see bits and pieces of all different eras - CP, Greek Line, Carnival, etc. - spanning several decades all in the same ship and often, in the same room!

I was looking for a photo of the dining room which was a lovely room but couldn't find one.

I have quite a few of them, starting here.

Success! I bought the book from Abebooks.com. Thanks again, Doug!:)

Glad you found it. It is an excellent book.

Clive Harvey is, by the way, the editor of Sea Lines, the magazine of the Ocean Liner Society, which I highly recommend all of you join. Sea Lines is the best ship magazine and well worth the membership fee.

I am actually writing an article on VICTORIA for the magazine at the moment so if you subscribe you will be able to read about your old friend later this year :) .

If you would like, you can also buy a piece of her here. I have personally seen many of the items in question and they are spectacular.

I am going to have to research the EMPRESSES...there is some confusion over which one became the MARDI GRAS.

If you are interested in these ships I highly recommend the book "The Last White Empresses" by Clive Harvey. (You can probably buy it from Amazon.co.uk, I doubt Amazon.com has it though.)

As for which ship is which:

EMPRESS OF BRITAIN (1956) -> QUEEN ANNA MARIA (1964) -> CARNIVALE (1975) -> FIESTAMARINA (1993) -> OLYMPIC (1994) -> THE TOPAZ (1997)

EMPRESS OF ENGLAND (1957) -> OCEAN MONARCH (1971) -> Scrapped 1975

EMPRESS OF CANADA (1961) -> MARDI GRAS (1972) -> OLYMPIC (1993) -> STAR OF TEXAS (1994) -> APOLLON (1995) -> Scrapped 2004

EMPRESS OF BRITAIN and EMPRESS OF ENGLAND were virtually identical while the newer EMPRESS OF CANADA was a major redesign of the previous new ships (and, to my eye, vastly more attractive).

I had the pleasure of visiting THE TOPAZ last year in New York. If you are interested in seeing what she is on board like today, I have a photo gallery here with over 100 photos including the bridge etc.

Since 1994 she has been RHAPSODY with MSC Cruises.

NORDIC EMPRESS was technically ordered as an Admiral Cruises ship, not Royal Caribbean. Admiral had just been bought by Royal Caribbean and initially they planned on keeping the Admiral brand for the short 3- and 4-night cruises (which Royal Caribbean did not then operate). By the time the ship was finished, Royal Caribbean had decided to dissolve the Admiral brand into their own.

VIKING SERENADE had previously been Admiral's STARDANCER (they bought that ship, originally SCANDINAVIA, when she was only a few years old). The other two Admiral ships, EMERALD SEAS and AZURE SEAS, were disposed of. NORDIC EMPRESS replaced EMERALD SEAS on 3- and 4-night cruises from Miami, while VIKING SERENADE replaced AZURE SEAS on 3- and 4-night cruises from Los Angeles. She in turn was replaced on her former (as STARDANCER) 7-night Alaska and Mexico cruises by older, smaller Royal Caribbean tonnage (SONG OF NORWAY or NORDIC PRINCE - I forget which).

DREAMWARD and WINDWARD had nothing to do with Home Lines... They originated in a design study for Royal Viking but wound up as NCL ships. Of course in those days Royal Viking was a sister company of NCL under the Kloster Cruise umbrella.

I have heard that HORIZON and ZENITH were originally designed for either Home Lines or Royal Cruise Line but the consensus is that both those stories are myths and that they were, in fact, designed for Chandris/Celebrity.

An example of a ship that really was completed for different owners than originally intended ROYAL MAJESTY (now NORWEGIAN MAJESTY) was originally ordered for the Finnish company Birka Line but was sold to Dolphin Cruise Lines (who created the "upscale" Majesty brand for this, their first and only new ship) while under construction.

Mother is 93 years old, lives in a retirement community. When I try to get her to cruise with me, she says two things-1. I want to remember the way it was and 2) my cruising/dancing partner is no longer around and it was only fun with him.

Fair enough! I can understand both those sentiments, especially at her age :) .

she no longer cruises.

She should try cruising again, albeit not on Royal Caribbean. She might like Cunard, or (if she doesn't mind the price) Crystal or even Seabourn.

For those who are curious, Capt. Erik Bjurstedt later became very popular at Orient Lines on MARCO POLO and CROWN ODYSSEY, then went to Discovery World Cruises aboard their DISCOVERY and is now with Orion Expedition Cruises aboard ORION. Last year Orion released this press release announcing his joining the company.

Do you think I might be able to get C&A Cruise Points for the Azure Seas?

Doubt it, but it couldn't hurt to ask...

Host Doug, I guess it depends on how you qualify a catagory, but I always thought Home Line's Oceanic as the first ship exclusively designed and built for cruising. At least that's how Home Lines use to advertise her.

They did - but they lied, in several ways.

First, she was actually designed for Transatlantic service from Cuxhaven to Montreal in the summer.

Second, there were actually other purpose-built cruise ships much earlier, e.g. Bergen Line's STELLA POLARIS (1927)... So she could not have been the first anyway.

On the other hand, I know of no ship built specifically for Caribbean cruising before SKYWARD.

To others who have sailed on the Italia Line, why did they use that phrase "la nave in partenza", the "sheep is sailing"? I find it fascinating.

Sorry, I misread your post! I thought you were translating the Italian phrase "the ship is sailing" as "the sheep is sailing".

Now I realize that they quite literally said "the sheep is sailing" in English. As to that, try saying "ship" with a thick Italian accent... It sounds just like "sheep". The "i" sound in "ship" doesn't really exist in Italian so it is very difficult for Italians to pronounce.

I remember people used to make jokes about Costa having a ship called the COSTA LOT. That was until they came out with the COSTA FORTUNA! Eet-a cost-a fortune-a... ;)

I have always thought that just about anything sounds good in Italian! I don't know how to say "cesspool" in Italian but it probably sounds lovely...

Thanks for your bon voyage wishes!

Why did the Italian Line have the announcement of "la nave in partenza", the "sheep is sailing"?

"Nave" is Italian for ship.

Enjoying everyone's reminiscences but the pasta discussions are making me hungry ;) ...

The Starward wasn't a true sister of the Southward. Starward was a sister of the Skyward. Southward was one of a kind.

Not one of a kind, exactly. Her sister was supposed to be called SEAWARD (not to be confused with the much later, larger one) but wound up being completed as P&O's SPIRIT OF LONDON instead, then becoming SUN PRINCESS, STARSHIP MAJESTIC, SOUTHERN CROSS, FLAMENCO and finally NEW FLAMENCO which is her current name for the Spanish tour operator Travelplan.

The only real difference between this ship and SOUTHWARD is that P&O had her completed with a large single funnel rather than NCL's then-trademark twin funnels.

STARWARD and SKYWARD were of course both sisters but interestingly STARWARD was delivered with a car deck (converted to cabins in the 1970s) while SKYWARD was not. Many people incorrectly cite STARWARD as the first purpose-built Caribbean cruise ship... In fact it was SKYWARD, assuming you consider a ship designed with a car deck but completed without one "purpose-built". (If you don't, the title would then go to SONG OF NORWAY.)

Oops, never mind. Turns out the the SS Azure Seas was my first, MS Southward was a very close second.

That makes sense. No Greeks on NCL :) .

(Royal Caribbean, by the way, inherited some of Admiral's Greeks.)

The latest rumors I am hearing are that SAGA ROSE's final voyage will in fact be the 2010 world cruise. Just a rumor - take it for what it's worth.

Given that they are already taking deposits for a 2010 world cruise and the new SOLAS regs she doesn't meet (and it would cost a fortune to upgrade her for these) come into effect in October 2010, I think it is quite safe to say that the final voyage will be sometime during that fateful year. I doubt she will be the only classic liner retiring that year, either :( .

Whatever the final voyage is, I am sure it will be booked years in advance - during the past decade she has taken on a very, very loyal following.

I am told Saga is exploring a number of options for replacement of ROSE. A newbuild is one but personally I do not see this as terribly likely as at this point it would be difficult to have a new ship ready at this time. Obviously, the other choice is an existing ship - I will leave it to your imaginations which ships could be possibilities.

Like I said, having sailed on both Nordic Prince and Song of America, I believe that Nordic's lounge was added onto the smoke stake

Yes but so was SUN VIKING's and they left that one on.

I do agree it would have been much more difficult to remove SONG OF AMERICA's.

By the way Doug, why doesn't RCCL recycle any of the names like HAL or Princess?

Today all of their names end with "OF THE SEAS". So far they have not retired an "OF THE SEAS" ship so they have not had the opportunity to recycle one of those names. However, they did come out with SERENADE OF THE SEAS not long after VIKING SERENADE was retired.

This raises an interesting point. I may be wrong about this, but I was under the impression that, at the time of the conversion of NP to Carousel, SunTours were obliged to remove the Crown Lounge because it was an exclusive trademark of RCCL.

RCCL actually removed it themselves, I believe, before handing over the ship. It was "not included in the sale".

They did the same when they sold SONG OF NORWAY to Airtours/Sun Cruises a few years later. They did not do the same when they sold SUN VIKING to Star Cruises though, so presumably by that time (1998) they did not care any longer.

I have never found out what happened to the Viking Crown lounges of the first two ships after they were removed.

Host Doug...check out this site for a copy of the NAL history book...it shows 3 copies available at various prices. I was lucky enough to find mine on ebay!

Sorry - the web site says the links expire after an hour! But if you do have the title of the English book nearby I would really appreciate it. I will also consider Amerikabåtene though I do not normally buy books not in English (I spend too much money on ship books without expanding to foreign ones ;) ...).

I still have that telegram...for me it was a sad day...one more line that I would not be able to try

A sad day indeed. Until then SAL was the high-end cruise line in the US - even NAL did not have the same reputation, and RVL was just a new upstart to the old guard. Of course, that was a different old guard from the people who are the "old guard" today, who remember RVL fondly. In 30 years I guess I will be the "old guard", fondly remembering Oceania or something ;) .

I also missed a crossing on the Polish liner STEFAN BATORY...when friends had to cancel at the last minute...I should have stuck to my guns and stayed with the STEFAN...in 1978.

That is one ship that everyone - and I mean everyone - I know that sailed in her said was absolutely unique, with an atmosphere unlike anything else. It is a pity that POL did not acquire another ship after that. They were looking at MARDI GRAS which would have been great for them, I think. Alas, it did not work out and that wonderful ship is no longer with us either...

There is a nice web site on STEFAN BATORY here. Also some nice photos of her here.

Is their anything that would prevent Carnival from naming one of their newbuilds "Mardi Gras", or would they have to add "II" to it?

No reason they would have to add a "II". For example the current ROTTERDAM is the sixth one but she has no number. Same goes for PACIFIC PRINCESS (the second) and many, many other ships.

But Carnival has never re-used a name before and the name MARDI GRAS does not fit their current "format" which is CARNIVAL (something), e.g. CARNIVAL PRIDE, CARNIVAL TRIUMPH etc.

Surely there are not enough people checking in for this voluntary taxation to warrant Star tying up two (2) vessels in Hong Kong as basically floating overnight casinos ?

It may seem odd to we Westerners but believe me, they know what they are doing.

With all those huge casinos and passengers gambling non-stop through the whole "cruise", they should be raking in those Hong Kong Dollars!

You are quite right about the names "Club" Doug. Star Cruises knows the Hong Kong market very well, hence the reconfigurations of some public rooms into rooms for "games of chance.";)

"Some"? By my estimation they are taking over basically everything but the restaurants and show lounge.

I am sure she will serve this market well but really I think she is a bit too nice for it. Better to put LIBRA on this run (with the attendant extra casino space) and put AQUARIUS in Taiwan.

I believe the Nordic Prince is now in Europe sailing under the name of Aquamarine or something like that.

She was in fact called AQUAMARINE for a year or so by her present owners, Louis Cruise Lines but now she is chartered to Transocean Tours

One could sit on one's bed and touch knees with the person sitting on their bed.

There was an old RCCL brochure photo with a nice-looking young couple sitting across from each other in their beds in one of these cabins, legs interlocked :) .

The only negative that I recall is from the night the comment cards were received. Our dining room waiter begged for an excellent rating. After all these years, I still remember this: his begging was so unnecessary. The service that he and the assistant waiter had given had been excellent--and we so indicated that on the comment card. But, his begging left a slightly sour taste towards my Royal Caribbean experience.

This is something of a "trademark" with Royal Caribbean - still done, and now on Celebrity too :( .

On RCCL, anyone who does not get enough "excellent" ratings will be fired. In essence, if you get called "good" too many times, you are going to find yourself sitting on the pier holding a suitcase.

This basically forces the crew members in question (and sometimes the cruise director as well) to desperately explain to anyone who will listen that "excellent" really means "acceptable", and "good", "fair" and "poor" all mean "unacceptable". RCCL's excuse for this is that they will accept nothing less than excellence. In reality it is totally illogical and in my opinion very detrimental to the relationship between the passengers and crew (not to mention putting a huge amount of undue stress on the crew members) but this is how they have always done it and I do not expect them to stop any time soon...

I thought the "new" Gripsholm was a beautiful ship and remember seeing her on our jaunts to NY.

Even in her old age as REGENT SEA she was a beauty. That wonderful blend of Italian and Scandinavian style - how much better could it get :) ?

SAL had great ships. I guess my favorite would be KUNGSHOLM of 1966 though - now that was a beautiful ship - still is, in parts. In the winter she is now going to be a university ship and in the summer she will sail for Pullmantur as OCEANIC 2.

The previous KUNGSHOLM of 1953 was also a lovely ship and like GRIPSHOLM of 1925, wound up with Norddeutscher Lloyd. As EUROPA she was immensely popular c.1966-1982. I know two friends who sailed in her just before she was replaced and both loved her. One still writes me notes on EUROPA note paper from time to time!

Of course the pre-war KUNGSHOLM and GRIPSHOLM were pretty special too. GRIPSHOLM had really traditional Gustavian interiors but KUNGSHOLM was very Art Deco and in some opinions better than NORMANDIE (really). Quite extraordinary really.

It's also the cover on another book of the history of NAL from 1910-1995...that one is in English. Both had great photos of all the ships.

If I may ask, do you have the title, author or any other information on this book? If I could track it down (even if out of print) I would love a copy. Sounds like a wonderful book.

I do recommend the wonderful "The Saga Sisters" by Clive Harvey and Roger Cartwright, about SAGAFJORD and VISTAFJORD. A lovely book with lots of color photos, deck plans etc. There is also a lot of nice information about other NAL ships, especially their direct ancestors OSLOFJORD and BERGENSFJORD (both whose lives were far too short).

Also "Passenger Liners Scandinavian Style" by my friend Bruce Peter, who probably knows more about Scandinavian liners than anyone else I know. Of course the NAL and SAL are in there as well as the RVL ships and all sorts of others.

There is a wonderful tribute to her with some lovely interior color photos at this site....www.worldshipny.com/stavessay.html

Ah, yes, I forgot about that article. Lovely photos. Isn't it amazing that a ship that was practically a contemporary of the TITANIC was still crossing the Atlantic in 1963?

And Host Doug...I'd KILL for that blanket!

I do not think my friend is planning on giving it up ;) ...

Star Cruises has the post refit deckplans on line. You can view them here

http://www.starcruises.com/Fleet/Aquarius/deckplans.html

Of course you need to understand Star's euphemistic language to understand what you are looking at ;) .

For those who don't know, anything called "Club" on a Star ship is usually a casino. I guess on AQUARIUS the Star Club, Genting Club and Admiral Club are all casinos.

Basically, the majority of the ship's public space will become casino space, as befits her new role.