KnowTheScore

Heading over to Celebrity but in current climate likely won't cruise till well into 2021 or even 2022 depending on whether cruise lines can actually get any kind of reasonable agreement with CDC and other authorities to manage on-board COVID cases without quarantining every other passenger.

On ‎6‎/‎3‎/‎2020 at 9:44 PM, BillieJeanKaraokeKing said:

Quizzes were more detailed, innovative and interactive on P&O, whereas on the others they mainly simple Q&A and over in no time. 

Quizzes have become largely a farce on P&O imho.  The cruise staff really aren't interested in them and rush through them as quickly as they can.  They have a number of "Individual" quizzes which are supposed to be done individually of course yet people sit in teams of 6 and the hosts turn a blind eye, not remotely interested.  The quiz after all is "just for fun" and just for a little worthless gold sticker.

The once professional, very well prepared and serious Evening Syndicate Quizzes held at 10.30pm in various venues on different ships has long since become an utter farce generally run by entertainment team kids who again, have no real interest in the affair.  They spend hardly any time preparing, have no idea what a balanced quiz is and some of them even turn up with ZERO preparation at all and randomly pick questions there and then from a large database.   Many of the "kids" have absolutely appalling education (sorry but it's true) and have no idea what the answers to questions are except that the answer is in front of them.   Composers like Bach are pronounced "Batch" and it is all in all an hour of cringing embarrassment.   The syndicate quiz used to be really really good.  Run by adults who had some semblance of knowledge and who were passionate about setting a good quiz.   Now things are run by kids like a McDonalds outlet things have degraded terribly.   There remains AFAIK just one really good quiz master in the fleet and he is known as D J Martin.  He takes pride in what he does and his quizzes are exceptional. 

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Food I feel is comparable quality wise (decent enough), though it has to be said there was much less choice on P&O (both MDR and buffet). 

Food on P&O has gone badly downhill in the past 1-2 years imo.  It is now akin to a Weatherspoons pub.  The staff are excellent but the food is pub fare.  Plates are sparse, desserts are embarrassingly poor.   It's not worth paying £1000s for imho.

5+ years ago the food was great.  Lots of great fish choices inc Sea Bass, John Dory, Mahi Mahi, Baramundi and so on.  Now it's a lot of salmon.   The Witch Sole on the first night of the cruise is usually good though.   Vegetables are very sparse.  You can of course ask for more but the poor waiters are stretched enough as it is as they now have to double up as wine waiters, the genuine articles having now been abolished.   It's all very impersonal too.  They take your order with electronic tablets as if you were in the pub.   It is as I said, Weatherspoons at sea.   I'm led to believe Celebrity is far superior.

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Activities are far more sedate on P&O in my opinion, no-one was remotely interested in anything sporty or energetic (I'm neither lol, but like to give em a go). 

The Horizon paper delivered to every cabin each day and which outlines the daily activities hasn't changed in probably 5 years.  It's the same dull list of activities every single cruise and most of those activities pertain to health lectures, presentations or participating events where they want to take the opportunity to sell you stuff.  There is very little actual content put on that incurs any effort on their part.  It's boring as hell.  We generally ignore it now and make our own entertainment.   P&O have done their utmost to eradicate card playing on ships which is a traditional cruising favourite amongst many cruisers.  Whist players have to fight tooth and nail to get a Whist Drive added to the Horizon paper and proper card rooms have disappeared at an alarming rate in favour of using the space for chargeable activities and services.  Even Bridge and Bridge tutors have become more sparse I think. 

Still the dire itinerary of activities suits those people who are happy to just relax and chill either sunbathing or reading a book or knitting and so on.  In this respect it can get a bit like an old folks home depending on the time of year you cruise and the length of the cruise.  One of the things I hate is people sitting reading and knitting in the chargeable alternative restaurants such as Glass House on Ventura.  Creates entirely the wrong atmosphere.  Why would I pay money for a lunch to have people lounging reading,  knitting and/or playing card games on nearby tables?!    It's a bit of a farce.

But each to their own.  Everyone has different requirements and the "old folks home" style suits some.   If you like knitting you can attend the "knit and natter" activity in the Horizon paper.   Oh Yes . . .  This is the life !!

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18 minutes ago, dogs4fun said:

Interesting article regarding river cruise protocols on Nicko Cruises:

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5376/

and again, like the NCL piece it fails to declare how it will respond to actual cases of COVID-19 on-board.

All it takes is for another Diamond Princess episode and cruising is dead in the water.

The elephant in the room has to be addressed

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31 minutes ago, evandbob said:

I just received an email this morning from NCL concerning changes to their safety protocols, which led me to this section on their web site:

 

https://www.ncl.com/why-cruise-norwegian/book-with-confidence?cheetahid=5000005432601&cid=EM_MKD_NA_PRO_EML_im_EML_PEACEOFMIND_SAFETY060220#safety

Interesting  . . .

"Installation of medical-grade air-filters, H13 HEPA, that remove 99.95% of airborne pathogens across our entire fleet to ensure the air you breathe is clean."

Is this admission that previous filters were not good enough to filter out viruses? 

Either way the "peace of mind" measures rather laughably neglect to outline the single most important aspect, which is how they will treat any COVID-19 cases on-board.  They must think we are fools.   The cruise industry simply can not tip toe and skirt around this issue, much less attempt to simply bury it under the carpet.

It's patently obvious that there WILL at some point be cases of COVID-19 on-board.

Cruise lines MUST be up front about how they will deal with it.

They are fooling themselves if they think they can entice most of the previous audience back on board by sweeping it under the carpet.

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In all honesty I very much doubt the CDC No Sail Order will remain with a July 24th deadline.

I'd put money on it being extended.

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People have been "planning" to cruise for months.  What they've been met with is an ever increasing extension of cruise line's ceasing of operations.  That imho will continue, demonstrated today by Carnival's announcement regarding P&O.

But this is a side issue.  Your OP stated that some people were ready to try new protocols yet I haven't seen a single cruise line yet state clearly what their protocol is for dealing with on-board cases of COVID-19.    Surely that is the most pressing and salient protocol to understand?

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6 minutes ago, skrufy said:

We will be on the Carnival Horizon on September 5th for our B2B

Carnival have just announced an extension of the pause in its operations until October 15 for P&O Cruises.   Do you not think it likely a similar thing will happen to other Carnival lines?

16 minutes ago, bosslaydee said:

Oh, you're wrong there. There are some folks in some August 1st roll calls who are pumped to sail away. I'd ask them for their opinions but that's not really what the roll calls are for, especially since i'm not on their sailing lol

Lots of people are keen to cruise again, including myself.

However it's completely dependent on the agreed protocols for dealing with on-board cases of COVID-19.

Nobody, I feel sure, would willingly place themselves in a Diamond Princess situation no matter how much they enjoy cruising

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2 hours ago, bosslaydee said:

Is anyone planning on being on these "inaugural" sailings? I'd love to hear your reasons on why you're ready to try these new protocols. 🙂 NO attacks here, just open, judgment-free discussion.

Sorry but AFAIK no cruise line has yet agreed the protocols for dealing with on-board cases of COVID-19

That's the primary protocol that matters

Until it's resolved I don't think anyone can make any kind of sensible judgement about future cruising.

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Because there was a suggestion that those people not having flu vaccines were posing a risk to others

15 minutes ago, sverigecruiser said:

I'm not more special than anyone else but if I'm the first to book I can choose which cabin I want. Why is it wrong to think that I also shall be able to pick my check-in time? 

It's wrong because it totally ignores the practical logistics involved in people travelling to ports.   In fact those that live local to Southampton ought to be given the latest embarkation times as it's easy for them to hop aboard.  Those travelling from Scotland have very long journeys.   They need to be able to board as soon as their coaches or cars arrive.  Embarkation times should always have been assigned by people's home locations but sadly never have.   I have cruised 30-40 times and have always ignored my allotted embarkation time and simply arrived early and gotten on-board.   This situation is unlikely to change. 

16 minutes ago, navybankerteacher said:

So what?  If a vaccine only saves 10,000 or 20,000 lives a year should it be ignored?

 

It very much depends on many other factors, not least the number of people that will be harmed

This isn't the place for that discussion

1 minute ago, mnocket said:

 

Is there room under that blanket for me?

 

I couldn't agree more.  People worrying about social distancing during embarkation are missing the obvious - social distancing while on board the ship will often be impossible.  Do you think MDR seating will be spaced 6 ft apart, with only family members sharing a table? Do you think sun loungers will be spaced 6  ft apart?  Do you think bar seating will be 6 ft apart with no  one standing in-between? Do think you can maintain social distancing on the elevators?  How many seats are within 6 ft of you when sitting in the showroom?  Do you think those seats will be empty?  I could go on and on.  The point is......  if social distancing is still required, you don't want to be on a cruise ship - and embarkation is just one of many problems.

+1

Ergo the social distancing "rule" is destined to be overturned completely by government at some point in the future.  They will simply say it is no longer needed and make some fancy excuses.   It will happen.

1 minute ago, navybankerteacher said:

This approach taken to its absurd (but “logical”) limit would mean abandoning flu vaccines because they are sometimes only 50% effective

They've been shown to be much less effective than that. 

There are numerous scenarios that would frustrate any attempts to keep passenger embarkation to specific time slots.  Traffic jams in any given art of the country, adverse weather conditions outside, delays at the kiosks, delays with CPS staff taking cars away and so on and so forth.  It would never work.

Similarly at the other end of the vacation, what would you think will happen when people disembark and go hunting for their suitcases in the luggage hall?   It would take many many hours to get people off the ship as you'd have to limit the numbers in the hall and keep them all 2m apart.  Just never gonna happen.

People aren't thinking along the right lines.   Social distancing is a nonsense and always has been.  It has to be abolished and it will be I guarantee it.

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It's patently obvious imho that it is not possible to maintain social distance measures on a cruise ship and for that matter in many other scenarios.

It should therefore be equally obvious that at some point in the future the government and world health authorities are going to have to do a complete U-Turn on the social distancing ethos just as they did with wearing masks.   They blatantly lied to the public about the benefits of wearing masks in public, because they didn't want the public buying PPE needed for the NHS due to the chronic shortages.  When it later suited them, they reversed totally their previous statements and now say that it IS beneficial for the public to wear masks when out and about.   It's a total scandal that this happened as the UK populace should have been instructed to wear masks in public from Day 1.

I guarantee that the government will do a similar U-Turn on the issue of keeping 2m from other people.  It's simply not practicable or even possible in certain environments and a cruise ship is one of them.  So cruise lines are simply waiting for the point at which the global authorities do that U-Turn and let things go on as before.

Carnival's news release today states:

"As a business our operational focus is not "when can we resume sailing?" but is instead "how can we develop a comprehensive restart protocol that will keep everyone on board, our crew and guests, safe and well and still give our guests an amazing holiday?"

"We are working with government and industry bodies at the highest possible level, such as Public Health England (PHE) and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), to review every aspect of a holiday with us and establish a framework of policies and procedures. Our aspiration is to be adopting best practice in managing COVID-19 within the travel industry. 

"Unfortunately, as the world continues to adapt to this global crisis, we have made the decision, difficult as it is, to extend our pause in operations for all sailings up to and including October 15, 2020. We are so sorry for the disappointment this will cause to so many of our guests."

Patently clear that there is still a long way to go before these fundamental issues are resolved and that the cruise lines are still totally beholden to the world health authoritative powers like the CDC.  They hold the aces, they pull the strings and will be able to make the cruise lines dance to their tune.   The greatest problem cruise lines face is still the protocols they will be mandated to follow if someone on board presents with COVID-19.  Everything else is frankly superficial.   If the protocols remain that EVERY passenger must be confined to cabin for 2 weeks then it's game over for the cruise industry imho.  

So the wait continues.

It's simply a game of cat and mouse between big global powers and the cruise line fat cats.  Until they jointly reach agreements no-one is cruising anywhere. 

The 2m social distance measure is utterly facile and meaningless.   Always has been.  It's a public pacifier.  The germs from coughs and sneezes travel 8m and further and this has been known from the outset.  In addition the germs remain floating in the air for up to 3 hours so keeping 2m from anyone is utterly futile because you're in an environment where you can't avoid the germs.

I can guarantee that the 2m social distance nonsense will be eradicated in the near future.  It simply has to be.   Will be interesting to see how the government spins that U-Turn when it happens.

Meanwhile I would concentrate on the bigger show stopping issue of how will they deal with COVID-19 cases on-board.

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In the end the cruise industry has very few options.

Either everyone agrees to treat COVID-19 just like any other virus and leave everyone free and easy and to get on with it . . .

or

Cruise lines will have to restrict the number of passengers so much that the resulting price they will have to charge will once again limit cruising to the very wealthy.   Even then there remain serious issues.

Tendering is common yes but can present many adverse issues

For one, in the new world, social distancing would be almost impossible.  Waiting for tenders to get ashore on large ships is a real ball ache and waiting on the dockside to get back equally so and often much worse if you are left standing in long queues in searing heat.

On a Venice cruise that called into the notorious hot port of Dubrovnik and was tendering passengers, an elderly gentleman collapsed on the quayside in the blistering 40 degree heat whilst standing in long queues waiting for the tenders.  He sadly did not survive.

Last year as previous poster highlighted the P&O ship Azura tendered over 1000 people ashore and by the time it was time to come back the sea state had changed and it wasn't safe to use the tenders.  So over 1000 people had to spend the night ashore and P&O put them up in a gymnasium as I recall.  Pretty rough experience I'm sure.

Personally I find the tendering experience pretty awful, the little boats are very choppy in even slight swells and waves and there is very little fresh air as the windows are generally kept closed.   The wait in the morning and faff of having to get a ticket and wait until your number is called is frustrating and the queuing and waiting on the return is generally uncomfortable and undesirable in hot weather.  I definitely would not want to be on a ship in distress that required an "abandon ship" via the tenders. 

In summary, and on a personal basis, if the itinerary I was looking at had multiple tender ports I would avoid it and look for an alternative cruise unless there was some burning reason I needed to be on that cruise.   If I were faced with that situation I would likely just stay on-board at the tender ports to avoid the faffing and queuing and delays.  Much depends on the size of the ship and the number of passengers.  And that's before we have COVID-19 to contend with.   If they are forced to restrict the number of passengers in tenders from say 150 to 50 then goodness it's going to take forever to ferry 1000s of passengers to and fro.  No, I'd definitely be looking for an itinerary without tender stops but each to their own.

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On ‎5‎/‎25‎/‎2020 at 1:20 AM, ilikeanswers said:

do think this Pandemic is an opportunity for a reset to make changes that in your opinion would improve the cruise industry? And if so what changes would you like to see? 

The industry HAS to reset in order to survive at all going forward.  I still very much struggle to see how it's going to cope.

The "cosmetic" stuff like abolishing self-service buffets and having less passengers is frankly pretty superficial.

The issue they still have to resolve is the power that the World Health Organisation and other authoritative bodies have to force the cruise lines to operate in a certain way and in particular forcing them to respond to on-board cases of COVID-19 (or any future killer virus) in draconian ways.

The cruise lines can limit the number of passengers all they want, can test people as often as they want, but if the bottom line remains that when ONE person presents with COVID-19 symptoms on-board then EVERY other passenger gets quarantined to their cabins for 2 weeks or taken off to some unknown quarantine facility in some foreign port and/or then flown home and then more quarantine, then sorry but I won't be cruising again.

As far as I currently know, this fundamental show stopping problem has not yet been resolved (if it has please someone enlighten me).

Very few people are going to set foot on a ship again if the potential for a "Diamond Princess" experience still exists.   Cruise lines are going to have to underwrite in their customer contracts that such protocols will NOT happen again.

The only real solution is to let people choose to take their chances with the virus.  Treat it like Flu, if someone gets COVID-19 on-board, remove them from the ship immediately but let everyone else get on with their holiday.

Until we get to that point, it remains Game Over for the industry imho.

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10 hours ago, jeanlyon said:

When it's OK to cruise, ie insurance and Covid, we would stay with P&O purely for price and like their 19 day cruises to the Med.

Comes to something when a cruise line is selected for price rather than quality, service and value for money.

We also used to love P&O 19 nighters and have done the 18-19nts to Venice and back a great many times.

However over the years the cut backs have become relentless and totally changed the experience and that sadly also leached into the itineraries.   19 nighters used to have great itineraries and you'd usually get 8-9 ports a trip.

Now you'll get maybe 7 ports and this years brochure even had several 19 nighters with just 6 ports !!! Just outrageous imo.

Previously great itineraries with top ports were suddenly riddled with lots of (imo) lesser "cheap" ports. 

In the end just got sick of the endless penny pinching and brazen policies to make as much profit as possible instead of delivering a (imo) quality product.   It's been described by numerous people as "Butlins At Sea" and that's totally the result of the influence of Carnival since they took over.  P&O was formerly a great brand, one that I would have stuck with and had absolutely no need to consider trying other lines.   The brand for me has since been brutally diluted and the experience is a far far lesser one than it used to be on just about every level.   COVID-19 has crippled the cruise industry and I can only hope that Carnival will be forced to sell off some cruise lines in order to survive and it would be my sincere hope that P&O is one such line.  

P&O desperately needs a new owner imo, one focussed on delivery of service and quality rather than profits.  One that would restore the former brand and restore the P&O values.  I know many think likewise and I know many of them are P&O staff who equally have hated Carnival's influence.

Off to Celebrity for me for good or bad

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10 hours ago, navybankerteacher said:

As I posted, I seriously doubt Congress (or any state legislature) would pass a law barring people from cruising without either sufficient assets or insurance to cover possible eventualities - and I do not think the mass market cruise lines would want to so write off a major part of their market.

 

Who do you think would make such an “enforceable” rule?

Maybe things are different in the USA but here in the UK, with Carnival's P&O Cruise Line, it is a term of your contract with P&O that you have travel insurance and to a very significant degree too.   From their documents:

"INSURANCE

32. It is a condition of the Contract that every Guest must have full and valid medical insurance which includes cover for pre-existing medical conditions worldwide, or as a minimum, in the countries that the Guest is due to visit and which must remain in force for the entire duration of the Package. The insurance policy must, as a minimum, include medical and repatriation coverage for not less than £2 million and must include cover for the cost of emergency evacuations from the ship, including but not limited to, evacuations by helicopter. "

I'd hazard a guess that some P&O passengers were unaware of this "small print" in their contract and that their insurance doesn't cover £2 million.

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4 hours ago, njhorseman said:

  Not all travel insurance companies have excluded COVID-19 coverage from their. policies. I suggest you check out what's available with and without COVID-19 coverage on tripinsurancestore.com website.  Travelex is an example of a reputable company  providing coverage. Here's a link to their simple explanatory FAQ page rather than asking you to dig through and understand their actual policy language:

https://www.travelexinsurance.com/covid19

 

 

Thanks for the link but that insurance wouldn't qualify for my needs as a regular Carnival P&O Cruise customer

Their Travel Select policy only covers $50,000 for medical expenses and only covers $500,000 for medical evacuations

The P&O Cruises cruising policy requires customers to have very good insurance as follows:

"The insurance policy must, as a minimum, include medical and repatriation coverage for not less than £2 million and must include cover for the cost of emergency evacuations from the ship, including but not limited to, evacuations by helicopter. "

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3 hours ago, njhorseman said:

 I don't care to argue your flu shot effectiveness statement...but where you got the idea that it's only effective in 1 of 71 cases is beyond me. That type of claim could only come from some anti vaxxer disinformation campaign. 

 

No it comes from one of the most internationally respected medical institutes who are renowned for undertaking systematic reviews and which the UK NHS use extensively for research. 

https://www.cochrane.org/CD001269/ARI_vaccines-prevent-influenza-healthy-adults

23 minutes ago, jeremyosborne81 said:

Set a reminder to come back to this, but in about 18 months there will be no SIGNIFICANT changes in the cruise industry. Some slight procedural changes but nothing ground breaking.

Just like I continue to fly with slightly more hassle at security, we will continue to cruise with servers at the buffet.

This is incredibly naïve TBH.

Carnival will soon be fighting some massive lawsuits as a result of how it managed the virus on its ships.

It will likely cost them many $millions

The notion that everything will just be the same is simply nonsense

You have to ask yourself, when cruises start up again, what will they do when one passenger or staff member presents with COVID-19.    How will they deal with it?

If you seriously think that the industry is going to be able to survive based on following the same procedures as the Diamond Princess, quarantining all passengers to cabins for 2 weeks, then good luck to you.  It's simply not going to happen.

Those protocol ARE going to change, they HAVE to change for the cruising industry to have any future at all.

Because of that insurance is going to change too.  No way you are going to be able to find an insurer willing to foot all costs if you end up on a "Diamond Princess" and are quarantined with everyone else.  Catching the virus and having to foot the bills yourself could literally bankrupt many people if they can't get insured for the costs.  You might even lose your house.

There will be MASSIVE changes as a result of COVID-19.  It's not going away and there will be other viruses that come along in due course.  COVID-19 has simply been the one that changes everything and will now require all industries to adapt and change.

Individuals will all inevitably be bagged and tagged going forward for all sorts of things.  If you're not tagged then you could be refused all sorts of things not just cruising.

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5 hours ago, Denarius said:

A random thought. If all passengers and crew had tested positive for antibodies and were immune, social distancing would not be necessary.

It's unlikely that the powers that be will declare anyone immune if they've had the virus.  That situation wouldn't support a lucrative vaccine industry same as with flu. Just being realistic.

There will doubtless be mutations and different flavours of the virus as there are with Flu (which has over 200 variations).   We also know that people who have recovered from the virus still have the virus in them and shed it for up to 37 days after recovery.   So having a test that confirms you've previously been exposed to the virus isn't going to be conclusive or reliable. 

People are going to have to be specifically swabbed and tested for the virus before boarding to see if they have any of it present in that moment.  If they do they will be refused entry.

But then people would also need to be swabbed and tested routinely throughout the voyage as they could pick up the virus at any and every port they visit.    That will lead to long queues of people waiting to be swabbed, tested and having to wait for the results before being allowed back on board.  That in itself has logistic issues, where to put all those people, 2m apart, cover for wind/rain and so on.

There are just no easy answers here.  It's all a nightmare and in the end the only thing they will do is just say "hang it all, we'll all just have to take the risk and damn the outcome"".

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