ABoatNerd

shipshape sam's post is spot on and vital to the discussion of cruising.

No one can confirm if the vaccines stop one from spreading the virus - this is the key point - that must be better communicated to the public.

Frankly people coming into my father's retirement home (workers and outside nurses) are saying they do not need to wear masks cause they have the first Pfizer shot. So that is the concern. I was checking out yesterday and was standing listening to 3 workers all discussing that they have the first shot so do not need a mask nor social distance.

This is a key failure in the public communication realm - people are not understanding the limitations of the vaccines.

I will not get on a cruise ship until every vaccine manufacturer produces evidence beyond a shadow of a doubt that once vaccinated there is no spread.  Otherwise the cruise industry petri dish is likely to happen again and I sure as heck will not be on such a ship. I am not booking any cruise until this event is over.

Greetings YoHoHo. Canada's so called vaccine manufacturing facility is dead in the water due to various reasons.  

A key failure of all federal governments in Canada since 2003, is the failure of Canada to have learned anything from the SARS outbreak, which was the worst in Toronto of anywhere in the world. Canada is not prepared for this virus despite having suffered the most from SARS.

I lived in Toronto during SARS and it was H_ll - not dissimilar to the lockdowns of today but we had to go to work because there was no technology to work at home.

So this is my second pandemic with the same responses repeated again.

An interesting factoid about this virus - is the link of China to the Canadian virus lab in Winnipeg, in July 2019 a group of Chinese scientists and their staff were removed by the RCMP from the building - they have not been seen since. These Chinese scientists had been sending samples of SARS, MERS etc to where - the lab in Wuhan China. Most interesting is it not?

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/virologists-escorted-out-of-lab-in-canada-66164

Critical thought and analysis are vital, thanks for your post YoHoHo!

Shipshape sam, thank you very much for your post. I agree.

Would you please post any findings on side effects, this is critical. I suspect there will be colusion to keep any serious side effects supressed from public knowlege.

I overheard a nurse entering my fathers retirement home today say to the building manager and other gathered staff that she has felt unwell weeks after getting the pzifer second shot with major headache and wheezing and she has tested negative. This is not good. She went to her doctor who contacted the health unit, who ignored her. She is going to the media.

10 hours ago, YoHoHo said:

Where did you get that Canada is using vaccine from China? Source please.

 

Canada DOES have contracts to supply vaccine from MANY sources and China might well be one of them. Canada contracted for many times expected to be needed, allowing for some production failures, or reported changes of efficacy as it is rolled out, etc. and then release / redeploy what they do not use. No one foresaw a production gap so early on. 

 

But currently we are only administering two that I know of. If you know of any reputable source that we are administering a vaccine sourced from China I appreciate you sharing it.

. 

And as for the shortage search news sources to the broader world and you'll see that BioNtech/Pfizer production stoppage in Europe is affecting more than Canada. Italy says it will sue Pfizer over delays in vaccine delivery, Germany will be out any day, etc. 

From Science Unscripted. It is a podcast w/o pictures so might try some's patience.
'German vaccine' shortage — are Germans OK with that?
Of all the places in the world for there to a shortage of the BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine, it seems odd for it to be happening in the country of its creation. And, though the selfless, European motivations that led to this conundrum are admirable, are those motivations actually shared by Germans? (spoiler alert: yes they are)

The BioNtech facilities are right there and they could have mopped it all up until all of Germany was vaccinated then released it but they did not do that. (hurray or Canada would have none so far). They did not do a "Germany First" but adopted an EU posture and are sharing.

 

In any event, until we are all vaccinated the world economy will not return, and travel will not return unless you want to repeat a loop from FLL like Groundhog Day. We are in this together.

Greetings YoHoHo:

You misunderstood my post. I said that Canada had contracted the majority of our vaccine from CanSino in China. The deal fell through due to their ineptitude and the fact the Chinese government refused to release samples to be sent to Canada for testing.

Hence Canada had to scramble to get "some" vaccine from reputable companies. It is a well known fact that the Canadian feds are hostile to big pharma but they do like China. Since Canada has no vaccine manufacturing facilities, this country is totally reliant on other countries.

Below is information related to Canada's epic failure of vaccine procurement.

https://www.kamloopsthisweek.com/pm-put-all-vaccine-eggs-in-one-china-basket-didn-t-consider-other-options-o-toole-1.24247415

That is why sitting in Ottawa with + 1 million people there has been no vaccine for weeks and no one knows when the next doses arrive, the public health booking line is down.

Hi Sue from Canada.

Thanks for your post. Yes fancy socks will be at the head of the line, of course and having pictures taken while my 93 year old dad sits and waits for a vaccine.

Cruising will be affected due to Canada's federal government ineptitude and adoration of China. 

I suspect the Alaska cruise season will not occur as Canadian's will be so far behind the USA etc in vaccinations. I also recommend that President Biden keep the border closed with Canada due to our poor vaccine performance (not that I want that cause I have a new Porsche and I want to get driving south).

Often on cruise ships up to 1/3 of the guests are Canadian, with the national failure to vaccinate, that could put a damper on any cruising involving Canadians.

Sue, stay well dear lady.

In Canada it is a national disgrace. We have virtually none for the entire country.

It is so bad in Ontario that our Premier Ford asked President Biden for vaccine on Thursday! That is a total slap in the face to our federal govt.

The Cdn feds arranged a "deal" with a company in China (yes China folks) to supply the majority of a vaccine for Canada. China stopped the initial vaccine from being sent to Dalhousie U (Halifax) for trials. Then the company could not get details worked out, so the deal died. By that point Canada was so far behind other countries ordering from accredited firms that we have nothing now. We got some from Pfizer a while back and nothing since.

So Canada is dead in the water which is why many Canadians have gone to Florida for vaccine. Iunderstand new rules were rightly put in place by Florida this past week.

Our Cdn federal government is totally incompetent and negligent in handling the national vaccine supply.

Joel- the supply is national with allocations to provinces (nothing public about parameters). 

It is so bad in Ontario, the largest province, that our Premier Ford went public to President Biden on Thursday asking for vaccine.  If that is not a slap in the face of the Cdn federal government, dont know what is.

Very poor national vaccine situation in Canada.

18 hours ago, Hlitner said:

While we all want to be rid of COVID (and many other diseases) the concept of Herd Immunity is now being simply used as a crutch to let certain officials dish out optimism.  While herd immunity is a wonderful concept in public health, in reality it is a bridge too far.   I think one of the better balanced articles I have seen was in the NY Times which is linked here:

Covid-19: How Much Herd Immunity is Enough? - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

I think saying COVID will be defeated by herd immunity is like saying COVID can be prevented by masks (often worn below noses, using materials that cannot even stop dust, etc).  It sounds good, gives the public lots of hope, and presents a wonderful end point.  Let us all pray that the vaccines stop COVID in its' tracks.  But when Dr Fauci (who a previous poster loves to cite) talks about 90% vaccine usage it is so far from reality as to be ridiculous.   

 

I am a strong believer in folks like Dr. Fauci and probably follow mitigation measures even more then most folks.  When I am out among the masses (who I try to keep at a distance I always wear a N95 mask and wear it correctly (creating a good seal between mask and face).  I know that the mask helps improve the odds (to avoid COVID) in my favor but it is far from a panacea since COVID could easily enter my nasal passages through my eyes (something folks like Dr. Fauci do not mention since there is no easy solution for the general public).   But make no mistake that public officials do more out of political expediency then science.  As a simple example, here in Puerto Vallarta we are in a lockdown where the Governor has dictated that beaches be closed at 3pm.  What does this mean?   At 3pm restaurants and beach clubs move their chairs off the beach.  Folks are told to leave and they simply crowd inside those same restaurants/bars because they are no longer permitted on the beach where it is easy to social distance.   A few hours later instead of enjoying dinner on a beach (many restaurants normally put tables/chairs on the beach) these same folks go to the insides of those same restaurants where they do not have nearly as much social distancing or air flow as they would have on the beach.  But, the Governor has ordered the beaches closed!  Go figure.

 

In New York their Governor has admitted that over 80% of COVID spread is happening at home among mostly family members.  And yet that same Governor has ordered most other options (that would get folks out of their homes) to be closed.  At one point he even ordered large public parks closed....again driving folks out of the fresh air (generally considered safe) inside (generally considered not safe).   That same Governor (who has written a book claiming he properly managed COVID) ordered many nursing home patients (more then 6000) some still infected with COVID back into nursing homes which allowed them to infect many other high risk folks.  How many folks were killed by this policy?  The State has done their best to conceal the real numbers but we are talking over 10,000 souls with the real truth perhaps never seeing the light of day.

 

Perhaps many folks can agree that our politicians and public health officials have really screwed up the handling of COVID.  Now, just like politicians all over the world from China to New York always do, they are spinning facts to cover up their failure and even try to take credit for doing something good.  You have to love Governor Cuomo coming out with a book praising his own handling of COVID while that virus still rages in his State.  

 

Now we want to rely on some of these same folks to tell us when it is safe to cruise and how we should deal with COVID on ships?  Color me skeptical.  

 

Hank

 

 

Hank, as always, thank you for your critical thinking, your knowledge of vaccines and thanks for the link to the herd immunity item.

Given the slow inventory of vaccine supply everywhere (basically none in Canada due to a failed federal level "deal" with China (yes China) for the majority of vaccines for Canada), I do not anticipate cruising to start for quite a while. On many cruises, Canadians can be up to 1/3 or more of the passengers. With the national debacle of vaccine supply in Canada, best of luck having Canadians vaccinated any time soon. 

I would keep the northern border closed for quite a while until Canada gets its act together. 

Well here in Canada it is a bleak situation for vaccines, really there are few if any vaccines happening.

Essentially the Cdn federal government did the big vaccine deal (the majority of vaccine purchase) with China (CanSino) but the deal fell through and their vaccine has received no approval. China blocked shipment of vaccine samples that were to be sent to Dalhousie University (near Toronto) for trials. So the Cdn feds had to scramble for vaccine and were and will remain behind other countries in vaccine supply going forward. Canada has no vaccine production facilities. 

For example in Ottawa, Ontario, a city of + 1 million, there is no vaccine period. Some, but not all, people in LTC and hospital and staff in retirement homes/LTC and PSW's and first responders got a first dose of Pfizer, that is it. No date for any further vaccine.

Unlike the US, the limited vaccine shots are being done in public health offices - no drug stores. So very limited venues even if there was vaccine. 

Plenty of trying to divert the attention away from the vaccine shortage going on at the federal level. Essentially I have given up ever getting a vaccine any time soon given the incompetence at the Cdn federal level.  The CDC hopefully is paying attention to the Canadian situation and ensuring the northern border remains closed.

So not able to plan any trips period due to the vaccine situation in Canada.  This is one reason why numerous Canadians have flown to the US and got their vaccine shots, granted many have properties there. Not good at all.

33 minutes ago, DaveOKC said:

How is that going to work for all the snow birds???

Good question.

A non American person owns property in Florida, paying taxes and paying for property management fees, likely also US tax implications. 

Humm, unless the "executive order" specifically states US citizens only, it could be null and void. Hummm again, time will tell of course, time tells all things

3 hours ago, TeaBag said:

Thanks, but I'm not sure we can afford Silversea.  We thought we had found a little safe haven in Azamara to replace Celebrity which we have been loyal to for 26 years.  Not sure what we will do going forward.

TeaBag, to do going forward, give cruising a stop order.

Wait for a long while to see what exactly is the cruise product. People are spending $ for an unknown product in 2022, 2023...??

With the debt levels, expect downgrading of everything. 

Examine other travel options and determine the financial and non financial elements of every option.

Cruising simply does not provide the certainty required for us to put down big bucks. Not interested in being trapped on a petri dish. Certainly not loyal to any for profit business.

I am the most important element, me only, not the service provider.

Recommend you provide 0 of your money to any cruise line at this time.

You do not know when the product will be delivered, in fact will the on board product actually be and you have no information on ports.

Therefore, as a consumer, you should put yourself first and deny cruise lines any $.

Do not think that the US is the only country having issues.

In Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, there are no vaccines whatsoever for a city of + 1 million.

There were some 2 weeks ago, most in LTC got the 1st Pfizer dose and some health care workers and first responders.

Now, none and none anticipated for a while. The public health telephone line says if and when more doses, will be only for 2nd shot dosing.

So nothing happening here, and the spacing between the 1st and 2nd dose is up in the air.

F for fail.

2 hours ago, ChucktownSteve said:

 

Other aspects of a Luxury cruise line are the quality of service, guest/crew ratio, food quality offerings and overall atmosphere.  By calling cruising a luxury product, that makes Carnival a luxury cruise line because they are profitable.

 

When XX removed the assistant cabin attendant, that wasn't to increase service, it was to save money.  When XX moved to cheaper cuts of meat and covered them with heavy sauces to hide the lower quality, it was to save money.  When they reduced entertainment crew, it was to save money.  When they reduced the amount of live entertainment, it was to save money. It all added to the "double/double" philosophy. It was like boiling a frog so the frog doesn't realize it's being cooked.

 

Take a look at the attached menus. These restaurants are included at no up charge. Can you compare the quality of the luxury line to XX's food offerings without charging more?

 

One of your key points was when you said, "if Celebrity can compete at that price point without the expense of providing the same product..."  However if loyal customers are becoming EX customers, how will that help the long term bottom line?

 

When XX raised their pricing to be as much or higher than Regent without offering the quality of service, food and included offerings, they're not competing on anything but price and even losing that battle.

 

All Regent cabin categories include air fare, transfers and excursions in every port.  Add that to the cost of your XX cruise and they aren't even competing on the consumer's bottom line if the cabin pricing were equal.

 

Personally I hope loyalists remain with XX.  That way less demand for the small number of cabins on the luxury lines will help keep their pricing lower.  Another example of that is when you find a great restaurant and tell everyone how good it is.  But then they get so busy you can't get a reservation. 

 

In my opinion, just because the marketing people call XX "luxury" doesn't make it so.  A ship as large as AXEX or EDGE can never be a true luxury cruise line but will remain with the other mass market companies.  Granted XX may be at the forefront of the other mass marketing cruise companies but putting lipstick on that pig won't make it a premium or luxury line.

 

 

EXP Chartreuse Example Menu Dinner.pdf 149.26 kB · 6 downloads EXP Pacific Rim Example Dinner Menu.pdf 80.43 kB · 4 downloads Prime7Menu.pdf 451.23 kB · 6 downloads

Your assessment is spot on and to the point, thank you ChucktownSteve.  Glad you do not have blinders on and can clearly state the degradation of the once excellent Celebrity product. It is the degradation, combined with pricing, that has moved us away from Celebrity to the premium lines. Our friends and travel partners as well.

It is up to the consumer to beware of the value proposition of each business. The worst activity a consumer can have is being loyal to a for profit business. Consumer blindness or in industry slang  "obedient consumer", behavior is beloved by every for profit business.

With the prices being asked by Celebrity these days, the consumer is on the losing end. 

But to each their own.

Just now, ChucktownSteve said:

 

Thank you.  I still will have a December Azamara cruise if they don't cancel it.  It's a 13 night.

 

I am Elite/Discoverer so I'll still shop Celebrity if I like my Apex February cruise and consider Azamara itineraries if the prices on both lines become more reasonable.  But I suspect they'll need to raise the bar because I've now broadened my shopping considerations.

Indeed ChucktownSteve - it is really all about You and each consumer.

Glad you are booked and happy.

Shop around is the name of the game. We have done the same thing for many years and Celebrity never measures up for price and product versus the premium lines.

Sailed Celebrity from 1989 onwards and then in 2016 the degradation started and well they do not compete with the premium lines if you are paying suite prices.

To each their own value proposition, but it is obvious there is a backlash at Celebrity.

Hey ChucktownSteve!

Well done, another CC poster moving on from Celebrity. Celebrity prices are too high and discerning consumers are increasingly recognizing this.  

Compliments to you for looking around at suppliers and Not being loyal.

It is all about you, not the cruise lines.

Well like Fouremco, I am currently in Ottawa, Canada. No vaccines for a city of + 1 million.

I am on a waitlist for the Pfizer because I qualify as key caregiver for 93 year old father, nothing available past week. Nor next week.

Given the Pfizer announcements of delay in production from their European operations, nothing for who knows how long in this city.

A small few in LTC vaccinated with first vaccine, some first responders and hospital staff, that is it.

Deadsville. 

Hence why will not consider cruising as an option until all these measures are eliminated.

I am not spending $ to get hijacked by a faulty temperature machine, faulty virus testing - then ending up being confined to my room or kicked to the curb before boarding or during the cruise.

There are other travel options that provide joy, excitement, great food and service that do not have these risks and inconveniences.

Cruising not.

Since there is no information on what the actual product will be and then add in the cruise line debt levels - logic says there will be degradation of the previous product levels.

Therefore, will not book any cruise until such time as the pre-onboard-post product is clear and consistent so that it can be measured for value and measured against non cruise vacation options.

By design, we have no FCC's. Our money is ours to decide how to spend. Cruises are at the very bottom of the future expenditure plan well behind land vacations.

In Ottawa, Ontario, Canada, there is no vaccine for a city of a million.  There was some earlier, gone. No one knows when more will arrive.

Most LTC and elderly have had no vaccine.

I am allowed to have the vaccine as I am a caregiver to my 93 yr old Dad, but the public health unit refused to book an apt for the 2nd shot, so many people refusing the vaccine.

Now the entire province is in a state of emergency and you are not allowed to go out for a walk nor a drive in your vehicle for a change of scenery, I assume they would not arrest you, but still. I will be doing both. Oh and if you dare go to a store, you have to be 6 ft apart from your spouce, yeh right. Insane police state.

So I would say Ontario is a total disaster.

Just now, ChucktownSteve said:

 

Maybe LLP is correct.  The proof is if people are still willing to pay for her product regardless of reduced service/food quality and increased price.

Taking a different perspective than my post, a corporate perspective, you are totally correct!!!!!

My company had a plaque in our conference room "Thank God For The Obedient Consumer" - it is totally true.

Celebrity patronage is an example of obedient consumerism. 

There is the other historical saying "There is a sucker born every minute" is also true in all consumer purchases.

I, and my travel group, will not patronize Celebrity due to their poor value proposition. 

But to each their own.

Keep well!

You think the US is a mess, Canada is as well.

The vaccine is not being administered in drug stores, only government health units, so access is very limited.

All countries had sufficient time to develop an orderly distribution set up and ensure public communication of the priority distribution - Not.

Add in the apparent decision not to administer the required 2nd doses of the vaccines in accordance with the manufacturers approvals, and well bull.

Failure of the huge bureaucracy in both countries.

59 minutes ago, ECCruise said:

Why the hate?  Because we have been fairly loyal to them for the last 20 years and the new prices are, quite frankly, a rip off.

So yes, we can "not do it," (and have multiple times in the last few weeks) but when they play you for an idiot for trying to get those ridiculous prices, it stings.

 Exactly ECCruise.

Celebrity's arrogance since LLP arrived has driven many customers on these boards away and who knows how many others and think of the people who are no longer recommending Celebrity.

LLP thinks the consumer is stupid and will not notice the loss of the Sky Lounge and that they will embrace incense in the Edge class lounge. LLP also thinks that Celebrity is so good that people will follow - Not.

Add in the prices which do not correlate to the product and are not aligned with the product offering of the premium lines = backlash.

In my opinion, Celebrity is the most downgraded of all the cruise lines since 2015 while frankly lying about their on board experience, hence why so many have moved on.

Their arrogance is still on display, so obviously they have learned nothing.

3 hours ago, tserface said:

I expect that when cruising starts up again there will be some, like us, who are so anxious to cruise that we won't focus as much on the price.  Also, Celebrity is including more things like gratuities and drinks in the price so you really have to compare.  You  may be paying for something you don't want, but I think the goal is to move more towards all inclusive which simplifies it for Celebrity and helps easy the burden on their loyalty programs.

 

So, yeah, prices will likely be high for some time to come.

Thanks so much for your post tserface.  We will not pay for inclusive as we do not drink nor do we buy stuff. So all inclusive lines are off side.

That is why we really like the escorted land tours where you get great accommodation and local food experiences and then everything else is on your own dime.  Also have used customized escorted land tours as well (ie Rio) OMG, what a great experience. The customized land tours are where we are going and specialty cruise lines, no mass cruise lines.

If, if we cruise again, it will be a la cart only configuration. 

2 hours ago, YXU AC*SE said:

 

With respect, that is incorrect.

 

Ontario is providing the second shot, with 5884 persons fully (ie both shots) inoculated as of 10h30 this morning. (source: https://covid-19.ontario.ca/covid-19-vaccines-ontario)   The Moderna vax was on the ground in Ontario as of 30 December, being rolled out to managed care facilities, and the province has asked Health Canada to investigate withholding the second shot of that vaccine. (sources: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/covid-19-ontario-december-29-vaccine-reopen-1.5856296   and https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/59871/ontario-accelerates-covid-19-vaccinations-for-long-term-care-homes-in-priority-regions) 

 

Québec is currently withholding the second shot.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-second-vaccine-dose-delays-1.5861194 

 

Sorry to be pedantic, but misinformation is not helpful.   Scott.   

Thanks for the update. It was not misinformation, rather time delay.

Irregardless, the issue seems to be the very different approaches in each state and province. It seems there is limited to no national oversight, I guess due to accountabilities.