Freedom of the Seas, May 3, 2015 Not available for booking?

[hattack]

Let's be clear, this is not the first or will be the last music charter cruise outfit that failed....failure can be for many legitimate reasons,...the economy, poor marketing, underestimating the competition, greed, failure to have in place a 3-5 year sound business plan, not the right mix of ship size to meet the demand...recent failed attempts that come to mind are R. Kelly & Kenny G (that I know of)

 

it looks "easy" & very lucrative from the outside looking in...just because Maxwell has a huge fan base that does not link up to filing 4000 berths on the FOS....usually one's first time attempt is on a much smaller scale (group on a regular sailing, older smaller ship on a 3-5 day cruise with a smaller line up etc)...and word of mouth from satisfied repeat guests ,slowly build your base

 

What's perplexing in the Maxwell case is the number of missteps...I feel sorry for the poor customer service folks who are on the front lines answering the phones...they can only say what they have been scripted to communicate...I feel very sorry for the guests who paid (way to much IMHO) for what could have been an incredible musical immersion

 

The irony in the Maxwell case, with the line up, at those prices, they would have been better charting a Seabourn Luxury Cruise Line size vessel (450 guests) to open for sale in May 2014 to sail in January 2016...it would have been a sell out

[LadyMage]

A scam would imply there was never any cruise planned to begin with, or they were listing artists who had no affiliation with the cruise. I don’t think a professional musician like Maxwell (who is the marquee artist- his name is on the cruise itself) would align himself with anything like that. My theory is that the high prices reflect back to poor decision-making on the part of the organizers. Maybe they were overly ambitious in booking the entertainment, and when it came time to crunch the numbers, those were the prices they had to charge in order to pay all the artists.

 

As far as the other points (deleting posts and such), I still think that’s more attributable to poor management than scam. Maybe they are in denial (to themselves even) that the cruise was a failure, and if they can just buy themselves some time, they can somehow get everything worked out in time to pull off the cruise, even if it’s a smaller version of what they originally envisioned.

 

I am not excusing or justifying in anyway the behavior and actions of the organizers of the cruise, I just can easily imagine how an idea that began with nothing but the highest of intentions (bring some great entertainers and their fans on a ship for a week of music, parties and fun) started to snowball out of control to the point that they are now desperately attempting damage control and will be lucky if this whole debacle doesn’t put them out of business.

 

It certainly wasn't intended to be a scam; they did genuinely want to put this thing on. The promoter has had an established range of land events, and to whatever end, they had gone through and taken place. Likely, they just got carried away and thought that the land festivals could make for a successful cruise. However, they have planned that cruise VERY! poorly, and executed poorly.

 

I severely doubt that this charter will take place, in any iteration. RCI made it clear. Whatever reputation the promoter had to land events has been shot in the foot by the deplorable management of the event and the sanitizing of the website and the social media. They aren't likely to live it down anytime soon. If this won't kill the franchise altogether, I'll be amazed.

 

as recently as two weeks ago - two full months after RCI cancelled their charter - callers were being assured that the full ship charter was still definitely on, and they were still taking customers' money on the basis of that assurance. At that point, they were willfully perpetrating a fraud, and it had definitely become a scam.

 

Agreed. At the point of RCI pulling their chapter, they should've just sent out an email saying, "Sorry, guys, this isn't going to happen." That would've been the gracious thing to do. And if they would've done that and given a timeline on the refunds, then they would have kept their integrity, and people would've considered booking it if they were to try again with another ship at a different time. But as it is, they hadn't done that, and the fallout will continue to reverberate.

 

I was part of a startup land event in Montego Bay in 2009, and looked forward to repeating it 2010. That event pulled its plug as well, and we were all alerted to that. Reason was similar: not enough rooms booked to pull it off. But it was handled properly.

 

I doubt you'll see anyone from the Maxwell cruise show up here to clarify - because my bet is that they understand that if they start openly acknowledging the charter is no longer on that (more) customers will start demanding full refunds, refunds that they have no funds to pay.

 

I am not surprised if people haven't started demanding refunds already. There has been some twitter activity by attendees who have discovered the actual state of the charter through this thread. I honestly have no idea how the Maxwell at Sea people will salvage this situation; if a third-party forum has more information than they're providing to their own clients, it speaks volumes about the state of things.

 

 

Let's be clear, this is not the first or will be the last music charter cruise outfit that failed....failure can be for many legitimate reasons,...the economy, poor marketing, underestimating the competition, greed, failure to have in place a 3-5 year sound business plan, not the right mix of ship size to meet the demand...recent failed attempts that come to mind are R. Kelly & Kenny G (that I know of)

 

it looks "easy" & very lucrative from the outside looking in...just because Maxwell has a huge fan base that does not link up to filing 4000 berths on the FOS....usually one's first time attempt is on a much smaller scale (group on a regular sailing, older smaller ship on a 3-5 day cruise with a smaller line up etc)...and word of mouth from satisfied repeat guests ,slowly build your base

 

What's perplexing in the Maxwell case is the number of missteps...I feel sorry for the poor customer service folks who are on the front lines answering the phones...they can only say what they have been scripted to communicate...I feel very sorry for the guests who paid (way to much IMHO) for what could have been an incredible musical immersion

 

The irony in the Maxwell case, with the line up, at those prices, they would have been better charting a Seabourn Luxury Cruise Line size vessel (450 guests) to open for sale in May 2014 to sail in January 2016...it would have been a sell out

 

My very first music cruise was on the Celebrity Century. Now that would've been a ship of the right size to pull off the Maxwell at Sea charter; it's small, has an excellent setup, and doesn't break the bank. So with calculating talent fees in mind, it would've not been too terrible price-wise for the attendees if they would've booked that ship instead. Seabourn is also excellent; I think Diana Krall did her cruise charter on this line in the Mediterranean, and it was a hit.

 

I think that it was just plain inexperience with the running of a charter cruise that had caused this to go under. All of those errors add up to an inevitable conclusion, but each of those errors in context are just...amateurish. They should have sought out and cultivated more of an audience by investing in festival sponsorships outside their own franchise; this would've exposed them to a far bigger potential audience. All they've done so far works well with putting on a land festival, where prices are much lower for admission than a cruise, and guests can save on their flight/hotel costs if they book their own. But it just doesn't work that way with charter cruises; there's a lot more money-juggling and publicity-hunting involved. I look at the Smooth Jazz Cruise and the Dave Koz cruise as examples; though neither franchise is based in my home of NY, I've seen their ads make their way to NY-based events on a regular basis. And they got attendees that way.

 

Although, in thinking about it, something occurred to me about their prices: could it be that they didn't have enough money from the sponsors and investors to adequately cover their production expenses, and thus jacked up the attendance costs?

 

I can think of no other reason why they'd ask those sorts of prices of their attendees, apart from them trying to recoup. Dave Koz hosts his cruises on Jewel of the Seas and his prices are nowhere near what Maxwell at Sea showed.

 

I truly feel awful for the employees of this promoter. They're likely deluged in phone calls, maybe even saw it coming, and if the RCI legal team did intervene - at least as far as the site verbiage is concerned - then I doubt they can say anything...

Edited January 29, 2015 by LadyMage

[peter1975]

I'm not sure why a few are still trying to support them.

 

Here are absolute facts, no speculation:

 

• Cabins priced from the outset at absurdly high prices - not seen ever on any other charter cruise
  
• Cabins sold poorly enough (and the promoter likely missed payments to RCI) that RCI cancelled the cruise in November
  
• Despite RCI having cancelled it, the promoter continued online AND via telephone to claim (fraudulently) that the sailing was still a full charter for months afterwards
  
• When enough people started figuring out that it wasn't a charter, and RCI was selling cabins at a fraction of the Maxwell price - posts started appearing on Facebook, and the promoter scrubbed/removed those posts so as to attempt to continue the charade (SCAM) that this was still a full charter cruise
  

 

Nobody is trying to support them or defend them. Especially not me! I'm actually the one who got this thread active again. Unfortunately, most of the "facts" being tossed around would be considered hearsay. I've been following this whole drama as closely as anyone, so I don't need anyone to try and tell me what they think the "facts" are. I've been posting on the Maxwell FB page for months as well as regularly contacting them to find out what the status of the "full ship charter" is according to them. I also did a lot of research about Royal Caribbean's policy on full ship charters. None of what has happened or appears to have happened matches the policies that RCL has stated. My point is only that nobody should be so certain they know what is going on or what is going to happen in the future concerning the Maxwell event. The poster just before this one hit the nail on the head. :cool:

[LadyMage]

That should've said "I am surprised if people haven't started..." in re: refunds. My bad.

 

And to note, I've been screencapping, best I could, the posts that I know would end up deleted. They banned people from posting to their page, especially people who have criticized them or pointed out that RCI is selling cabins at a fraction of the cost, before disabling the posts-to-page feature completely.

[LetsGetWet!]

Nobody is trying to support them or defend them. Especially not me! I'm actually the one who got this thread active again. Unfortunately, most of the "facts" being tossed around would be considered hearsay. I've been following this whole drama as closely as anyone, so I don't need anyone to try and tell me what they think the "facts" are. I've been posting on the Maxwell FB page for months as well as regularly contacting them to find out what the status of the "full ship charter" is according to them. I also did a lot of research about Royal Caribbean's policy on full ship charters. None of what has happened or appears to have happened matches the policies that RCL has stated. My point is only that nobody should be so certain they know what is going on or what is going to happen in the future concerning the Maxwell event. The poster just before this one hit the nail on the head. :cool:

I'd be curious to understand what you believe has happened "or appears to have happened" doesn't match any of RCI's charter policies?

 

For reference, here's a good guide to RCI's charters:

 

Full Ship Charter Facts

 

First, it would cost $5,600,000 to charter Freedom during the week in question. :eek: (Note, they could have chartered a smaller Vision/Radiance class at $2,700,000 - a bit less than HALF, which would in hindsight have been a much more prudent way to begin.) Then, 10% of that amount, or $560,000 would be due at contract signing. Another 30% comes due 7 months in advance, and another 30% due 5 months in advance.

 

In this case, 7 months in advance would equate to early October, 2014. What "appears" to have happened - given that RCI has stated clearly that this sailing is no longer a charter, and they're selling cabins themselves - is that the promoter missed the payment due of over $1.5 million in early October. When that payment became 30 days overdue, RCI rescinded the charter and started selling cabins themselves. Although we can't see the full legal contract terms, the FAQ's also would strongly imply that RCI likely drew upon the required Letter of Credit at that point to pay the remainder of the charter fees owing, so RCI is whole and the ensuing legal/financial snafu is between the promoter, the bank issuing the LoC, and the guarantors of that LoC.

 

So, honest question, what do you feel I missed or am wrongly speculating about in the above?

Edited January 29, 2015 by LetsGetWet!

[hattack]

The 2016 Soul Train Cruise Charter is on the Celebrity Constellation, instead of HAL Eurodam...the Celebrity ship is older and holds fewer guests but is a beautiful vessel and much like the Celebrity Century in 2009, a really nice ship for a music charter ....plus probably cost less to charter

 

Freedom does not come cheap:eek:

 

Cruise Lines love charters....they are able to recoup100% operating cost + a generous administrative handling fee ( profit ) for the cost center (ship)...guests that would normally book on that ship on that particular week will book on another ship in the fleet which raises systemwide average load factors and results in less discounting of cabins (increase yield)....charters entice guests, who would not consider a cruise as a vacation option onto a ship and hopefully they will return for a future cruise on a regular sailing....the ships entertainment staff for that week can be deployed on other ships or take vacations due to the fact that the charter sails with it's own private entertainment.....the working crew (cabin stewards, MDR staff) that interfaces directly with guests have a more normal routine due to scheduling is based around the music concerts.....once a ship is chartered, if the promotor can't sell out the ship, the cruise line by contract is covered to recoup it's cost...and then in turn can sell cabins to the general public at a steep discount which is pure profit

[LadyMage]

I think I got a gray hair when I saw that price. 5.6M!? Jeez Louise...

 

No surprise in re: Constellation. And it's also an example of the charter promoter thinking about guest attendance and costs. If they felt that their event wasn't going to sell the Eurodam in full, they knew that the easiest way to 1. ensure attendance and 2. still cut a profit is 3. to downgrade the ship. And the prices are very reasonable, too.

[LetsGetWet!]

I think I got a gray hair when I saw that price. 5.6M!? Jeez Louise...

 

No surprise in re: Constellation. And it's also an example of the charter promoter thinking about guest attendance and costs. If they felt that their event wasn't going to sell the Eurodam in full, they knew that the easiest way to 1. ensure attendance and 2. still cut a profit is 3. to downgrade the ship. And the prices are very reasonable, too.

I hear ya! That's a lot of dough! :) Hey, they could always move up to an Oasis class, for a cool $10.1M! :eek: :eek:

 

Speaking of downgrades, yes there would have been much more reasonable ways to do a first charter for the promoter. Vision/Radiance 7 night (same dates) for $2.7M, all the way down to a 4 night Sovereign/Vision class for only $1.3M. I didn't realize all their charter prices were right there in print on the website, until I did a bit of looking this morning!

[hattack]

I wonder if in the "cruise charter game" is it much like a sticker price on a new car....published charter rates by the cruise lines are just a starting point....I would suspect that long time repeat charter companies receive a preferred good customer rate....on the same line of thought, does, the cruise line offer a charter option package sheet if the promoter wants to offer enhanced services onboard for it's guests....depending on the time of the year, age of the ship, whether the ship has the newest "bells and whistles"...if the promoter signs a multi year deal does it provide a hedge against fuel cost increases and guranteed rate for the length of the contract

 

Cruise lines compete for this business...that is why NCL acquired Sixthman and designated the Pearl as it' primary charter vessel and did major overhaul in drydock for music charters...Carnival introduced Carnival LIVE....newer mega ships to be introduced in the next few years do away with underutilzed spaces (MDR, Main Showrooms) and replaced them with multiple smaller public rooms, ideal for charters (especially music types)

 

Music charters sail fully berth with well over 100% occupancy with cabins that hold 3rd & 4th guests.....if the artists,music and sound systems are good, one does not need all the "bells & whistles" which mean older, smaller ships can allow the promotor to keep prices reasonable, ships full and guests returning

[LadyMage]

It's definitely a thought. I would think that repeat successful charters may cut a break on the rent costs, or maybe have some extras thrown in...

 

Carnival LIVE is something I've been thinking about, but I've yet to see a performance that would make me say, "hey, I'll do that". Capital Jazz is my favorite, and Hattack, you know that ship is full to bursting, and I think that if they ever changed ship classes, they'd find the new classes on a silver platter.

[hattack]

This year Carnival LIVE will feature Smokey Robinson for 3 performances in Cozumel for 3 ships including the Breeze....you best believe Carnival is monitoring bookings on those ships for that week to see if there is a surge due to him....looking at their artists line up they are testing how Country, 80's Rock, 70's horn bands will equate in booking increases

 

Carnival hosts 3 very successful music charters, Capital Jazz SuperCruise, Festival at Sea & Tom Joyner's Fantastic Voyage so I am sure Carnival's Entertainment Division took copious notes of the packed Lido Deck concerts

[LadyMage]

OK, guys. Update.

 

I pinged Royal Caribbean on social media, and they confirmed that Maxwell and the Seven Seas is canceled.

 

BTW Concerts is still not admitting it.

 

This thread has so far given more information to the attendees of Maxwell at Sea than the promoters themselves. That, frankly, is appalling. If BTW concerts will stay in business after this, I will be amazed.

[LetsGetWet!]

OK, guys. Update.

 

I pinged Royal Caribbean on social media, and they confirmed that Maxwell and the Seven Seas is canceled.

 

BTW Concerts is still not admitting it.

 

This thread has so far given more information to the attendees of Maxwell at Sea than the promoters themselves. That, frankly, is appalling. If BTW concerts will stay in business after this, I will be amazed.

Frankly, the way they've handled this - the outright dishonesty and fraud - they don't deserve to be in business!

 

By the way, in addition to the Twitter account @maxwellatsea, they also have @btwconcerts. :)

[LadyMage]

Frankly, the way they've handled this - the outright dishonesty and fraud - they don't deserve to be in business!

 

By the way, in addition to the Twitter account @maxwellatsea, they also have @btwconcerts. :)

 

Agreed completely. This was the only piece of info I needed before reporting them to the Arizona attorney general.

[peter1975]

I'd be curious to understand what you believe has happened "or appears to have happened" doesn't match any of RCI's charter policies?

 

For reference, here's a good guide to RCI's charters:

 

Full Ship Charter Facts

 

First, it would cost $5,600,000 to charter Freedom during the week in question. :eek: (Note, they could have chartered a smaller Vision/Radiance class at $2,700,000 - a bit less than HALF, which would in hindsight have been a much more prudent way to begin.) Then, 10% of that amount, or $560,000 would be due at contract signing. Another 30% comes due 7 months in advance, and another 30% due 5 months in advance.

 

In this case, 7 months in advance would equate to early October, 2014. What "appears" to have happened - given that RCI has stated clearly that this sailing is no longer a charter, and they're selling cabins themselves - is that the promoter missed the payment due of over $1.5 million in early October. When that payment became 30 days overdue, RCI rescinded the charter and started selling cabins themselves. Although we can't see the full legal contract terms, the FAQ's also would strongly imply that RCI likely drew upon the required Letter of Credit at that point to pay the remainder of the charter fees owing, so RCI is whole and the ensuing legal/financial snafu is between the promoter, the bank issuing the LoC, and the guarantors of that LoC.

 

So, honest question, what do you feel I missed or am wrongly speculating about in the above?

 

The document you sent me a link to is the same document I was referring to. When I made the statement: "None of what has happened or appears to have happened matches the policies that RCL has stated" I was directly referring to item# 11: "Unlike a large group contract, there is no provision in the Full Ship Charter Agreement that allows for cancellation of the program and/or for any number of staterooms. A client cannot reduce to a Half Ship Charter, Partial Charter or a group once signed as a Full Ship Charter."

 

I'm not at all disagreeing with what people on this board are suggesting or speculating about! I agree with the majority! Some things are just speculation and opinions more than facts. That was my only point.

[LetsGetWet!]

The document you sent me a link to is the same document I was referring to. When I made the statement: "None of what has happened or appears to have happened matches the policies that RCL has stated" I was directly referring to item# 11: "Unlike a large group contract, there is no provision in the Full Ship Charter Agreement that allows for cancellation of the program and/or for any number of staterooms. A client cannot reduce to a Half Ship Charter, Partial Charter or a group once signed as a Full Ship Charter."

 

I'm not at all disagreeing with what people on this board are suggesting or speculating about! I agree with the majority! Some things are just speculation and opinions more than facts. That was my only point.

In this case, the client did not cancel or reduce to half ship, partial or a group. So there's no disconnect with what's happened and RCI's policies. What has happened is pretty definitely known to be fact at this point, mainly due to the effort on LadyMage's part. What has happened is this - RCI cancelled the charter - back in November - most likely for non-payment of scheduled 7-figure payment(s). Since RCI's terms/policies require an irrevocable letter of credit be provided by the customer, their policies have contemplated exactly this happening, and their solution is to simply draw against that letter of credit for the unpaid payments, while cancelling the client's charter for non-payment.

 

At this point, RCI has confirmed multiple times to multiple people that the Maxwell charter is and has been cancelled - there is no speculation to this, its fact as confirmed by RCI.

[Chyna3032]

From looking at their facebook page, I think their clients now are aware that this cruise is a no go. They haven't taken any more payments from them, but they also are not answereing their phones to answer their questions; nor have they returned their money.:mad:

[LadyMage]

From looking at their facebook page, I think their clients now are aware that this cruise is a no go. They haven't taken any more payments from them, but they also are not answereing their phones to answer their questions; nor have they returned their money.:mad:

 

They're still sanitizing their facebook pages. They banned me, as well as a bunch of other people, but they routinely go through and delete any naysayers. I guess the only silver lining is that they stopped taking payments, but sanitizing their social media is the single worst thing they can do. If their image wasn't awful before, they're sinking it further.

 

Thing is this: I did a FB search for Maxwell at sea from their event page, and there were a bunch of others' event pages about this charter - know how folks attending can create events just to see whom they can meet up with on board? It's the FB version of a roll call. I skimmed through those; not everyone is aware that it's canceled.

 

Really not shocked if the attorney general will step in about this. That is a LOT! of money they've taken.

Edited February 3, 2015 by LadyMage

[Folk Singer]

This year Carnival LIVE will feature Smokey Robinson for 3 performances in Cozumel for 3 ships including the Breeze....you best believe Carnival is monitoring bookings on those ships for that week to see if there is a surge due to him....looking at their artists line up they are testing how Country, 80's Rock, 70's horn bands will equate in booking increases

 

Carnival hosts 3 very successful music charters, Capital Jazz SuperCruise, Festival at Sea & Tom Joyner's Fantastic Voyage so I am sure Carnival's Entertainment Division took copious notes of the packed Lido Deck concerts

 

 

haven't seen him live for years.

[Wendy&Grumpy]

They're still sanitizing their facebook pages. They banned me, as well as a bunch of other people, but they routinely go through and delete any naysayers. I guess the only silver lining is that they stopped taking payments, but sanitizing their social media is the single worst thing they can do. If their image wasn't awful before, they're sinking it further.

 

Thing is this: I did a FB search for Maxwell at sea from their event page, and there were a bunch of others' event pages about this charter - know how folks attending can create events just to see whom they can meet up with on board? It's the FB version of a roll call. I skimmed through those; not everyone is aware that it's canceled.

 

Really not shocked if the attorney general will step in about this. That is a LOT! of money they've taken.

 

I've made quite a few posts on the FB page and several event pages as well as on Maxwell's page. (I posted many, many links to this thread!)

 

Now taking guesses as to how long before I'll be banned ;)

[TifffanyD]

For those of you going on the capital jazz supercruise:

 

I just realized that we will be in port together! We are sailing out of San Juan as well on Oct 24. We'll be waving to you from the Summit!

[hattack]

If there is a silver lining to this situation, the guests booked after RCI reclaimed the FOS can thank the Maxwell Group for the discounted rates and the FOS is coming out of drydock with several upgrades and enhancements

 

Hopefully this situation will not over shadow the incredible product that the successful music charters are providing to their guests

 

San Juan PR will be the epicenter of full charter music cruises in the next few months....Festival at Sea in July, Capital Jazz SuperCruise in October and Dave Koz & Friends in Feb 2016...all 3 are sell outs

[LadyMage]

It would be so much easier for them to just come out and say, "Look, it's not going to go the way we originally planned, but this is what we're doing about it". Yes, people will be disappointed. But guess what else: they'll respect them for owning up to it. Instead they're doing the direct and exact opposite: silencing naysayers, banning critics, and forcing people to go elsewhere for answers.

 

 

I'm confident that somewhere behind the scenes, they're trying to work out an alternative, or a salvage plan - something. There's way too much on the line for them to lose. Yes, I'm giving them a little bit of benefit of the doubt here - I just severely doubt that they'd sit still on something like this, especially considering how it's soured publicly and the massive sum of money they're now liable for. But if they worked out anything in terms of alternatives, now's a really good time for them to let people know. They're already pissing people off A LOT by non-answering. They're not going to have a good result if they roll out the alternative after this sort of bad publicity.

[LetsGetWet!]

They're still sanitizing their facebook pages. They banned me, as well as a bunch of other people, but they routinely go through and delete any naysayers. I guess the only silver lining is that they stopped taking payments, but sanitizing their social media is the single worst thing they can do. If their image wasn't awful before, they're sinking it further.

 

Thing is this: I did a FB search for Maxwell at sea from their event page, and there were a bunch of others' event pages about this charter - know how folks attending can create events just to see whom they can meet up with on board? It's the FB version of a roll call. I skimmed through those; not everyone is aware that it's canceled.

 

Really not shocked if the attorney general will step in about this. That is a LOT! of money they've taken.

Wow... I hope RCI has plans in place to handle embarkation and the ensuing pandemonium on May 3rd. Since the charter was cancelled in November, but the promoter is still telling customers as late as January 28th that its still on - it seems there will be quite a few people showing up who expect to have a cabin that they paid HUGE bucks for, only to find upon arrival that they don't have a cabin at all, because the promoter took their money despite the charter being cancelled. Unfortunately, I think embarkation will be a disaster for everyone, whether booked on the charter or via cabins direct from RCI. I just hope it doesn't turn into a riot. :(

[LadyMage]

Wow... I hope RCI has plans in place to handle embarkation and the ensuing pandemonium on May 3rd. Since the charter was cancelled in November, but the promoter is still telling customers as late as January 28th that its still on - it seems there will be quite a few people showing up who expect to have a cabin that they paid HUGE bucks for, only to find upon arrival that they don't have a cabin at all, because the promoter took their money despite the charter being cancelled. Unfortunately, I think embarkation will be a disaster for everyone, whether booked on the charter or via cabins direct from RCI. I just hope it doesn't turn into a riot. :(

 

I really, really hope it won't come to that. Final payments on this thing are due on March 15th - I'm sure that there will be answers by then.