Casino open on Sun reposition from Hawaii???

[weary traveler]

Booked on the 9/29 repo from Honolulu to Ensenada. The NCL reservationist was under the opinion the the casino would be closed the "entire" length of the 10 day cruise. Am I not mistaken that the casino closure would only entail the "hawaii island" portion of the cruise and not the 4-5 day transpacific out of territorial waters entroute to Mexico?

I realize the NCL America has no casinos aboard and anything sailing Honolulu to Honolulu wouldnt have casino play but a repo? I did the same repo on RCCL back in 97 and the casinos were open on the high seas? Anyone who has sailed the repos to and from Vancouver or Ensenada recently offer any help? Thanks in advance..

Weary Traveler

[CruisinMK]

Since it's just doing a couple one ways they could leave the casino on and just shut it for hawaiian waters.

[Don Haynes]

The casino will be open once it leaves American waters on the repo, but keep in mind when you are cruising in Hawaiian waters you are back in American waters. That is when the casino will be closed.

[jerhardt]

The casino will be open once it leaves American waters on the repo, but keep in mind when you are cruising in Hawaiian waters you are back in American waters. That is when the casino will be closed.

 

Correction on the American waters thing.

 

American (like East Coast/West Coast cruises) waters typically allow for gambling, but not Hawaiian waters - this is a State Law.

[weary traveler]

I'm more afraid this would be just a Norwegian issue where they and they alone signed the agreement for hawaiian sailing. but i'm hoping you're right especially whereas the Sun is equipped with the casino. I'm pretty sure the other cruise lines open the casinos on their way to and from Hawaii. We specifically chose this one to have the casino on the way back. (keeping my fingers crossed)

 

Weary

[weary traveler]

well hopefully for their pockets.. and unfortunately for mine.. lol it will be open on the transpacific portion of the cruise..

[Holg]

Hawaii and it's 'No Gambling' rule is just plain stupid.

 

I mean they could TAX it for crying out loud!

[CruisinMK]

Maybe you're not familiar with the ugly downside of gambling.

Maybe one day you will be.

Personally I'm very glad we ban gambling here.

[Holg]

I'm not talking about building a casino in downtown Lahaina. I'm talking about a cruise ship with a finite number of people on it.

 

Frankly, I think the Hawaiian Government is upset that NCL found a loophole with the whole Fanning Island thing.

[weary traveler]

Ok guys.. was just asking a simple question.. i'm not pointing fingers nor expressing an opinion.. just a simple question thanks for your input

 

Weary

[KeystoneCruiser]

Hawaii and it's 'No Gambling' rule is just plain stupid.

 

I mean they could TAX it for crying out loud!

 

 

Holg: you are having a rough week here! First you came over and complained about kids in the specialty dining rooms and now you are going after the Hawaiian laws!

 

Hawaii had the no gambling laws long before NCL began the NCL-America cruising. Ships have had to shutter their casinos as they come into Hawaiian waters for years.

 

Stupid or not, it is the will of the people. Many states do not allow gambling, including your former home state of Ohio. In fact, the horse track owners just tried (for the fifth time in 15 years) to amend the State Constitution to allow slot machines at the race tracks and casinos in Cincinnati & Cleveland. They got shot down again by a huge margin...70% against the issue. The same arguement that it will bring in tax revenue was used and the people still voted overwhelmingly against it.

 

The same is most likely true of the Hawaiian citizens, they don't want gambling in their state. Its not stupid, its called the will of the majority.

[Holg]

Holg: you are having a rough week here! First you came over and complained about kids in the specialty dining rooms and now you are going after the Hawaiian laws!

 

Hawaii had the no gambling laws long before NCL began the NCL-America cruising. Ships have had to shutter their casinos as they come into Hawaiian waters for years.

 

Stupid or not, it is the will of the people. Many states do not allow gambling, including your former home state of Ohio. In fact, the horse track owners just tried (for the fifth time in 15 years) to amend the State Constitution to allow slot machines at the race tracks and casinos in Cincinnati & Cleveland. They got shot down again by a huge margin...70% against the issue. The same arguement that it will bring in tax revenue was used and the people still voted overwhelmingly against it.

 

The same is most likely true of the Hawaiian citizens, they don't want gambling in their state. Its not stupid, its called the will of the majority.

 

BUT

 

NCL Majesty RT Charleston... Casino open even though gambling is Illegal in South Carolina, Florida, Caymans Islands, and Mexico.

 

So why is Hawaii different? International waters are international waters... period. Get fifty miles out and Hawaii law means nothing.

[discjoker]

BUT

 

NCL Majesty RT Charleston... Casino open even though gambling is Illegal in South Carolina, Florida, Caymans Islands, and Mexico.

 

So why is Hawaii different? International waters are international waters... period. Get fifty miles out and Hawaii law means nothing.

 

Dude, you need to start getting your facts straight ;) . Gambling isn't illegal in South Carolina or Florida. South Carolina has a lottery and Florida has both a lottery and casinos (Indian casinos). In Hawaii gambling is illegal...no casinos....no lottery.

[Holg]

Dude, you need to start getting your facts straight ;) . Gambling isn't illegal in South Carolina or Florida. South Carolina has a lottery and Florida has both a lottery and casinos (Indian casinos). In Hawaii gambling is illegal...no casinos....no lottery.

 

DUDE, I'm not talking about lotteries or video-game-only Indian Reservation Casinos. I'm talking about slot machines, black-jack, craps, etc. ALL of these activities ARE illegal in all the ports hit by the Majesty but the casino is wide-open every day on that cruise.

 

You could argue against the casino being open when the ship is bouncing around Hawaii, but during the five days to/from Fanning, Hawaii Law does NOT exist no matter how much they want to think it does.

 

You might say "it's not worth it to the cruise company to only be open 5 of the 11 days" but I say B.S. The casino is a HUGE cash cow for the cruise company.

 

I think no one else has responded to my last statement on the thread because they know I'm right.

[discjoker]

Hawaii Law does NOT exist no matter how much they want to think it does.

 

I think no one else has responded to my last statement on the thread because they know I'm right.

 

Really? This might help explain things for you:

 

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9D07E5D71F39F935A35756C0A9679C8B63

 

Here's an excerpt that sums things up:

 

Senator Inouye added to the Labor Department appropriations bill a provision to ban casinos on cruise ships whose voyages start or end in Hawaii, even while those ships are in international waters. The bill passed handily...

[CruisinMK]

If you were right, that would mean you are smarter than the NCL lawyers who figured out that this 2000 federal law is valid and enforceable.

But you're not, and you're wrong.

Notice the bit of this federal law specifically mentioning Hawaii, and cruises that both begin and end there?

 

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Federal-Laws/cruise-to-nowhere.htm

 

 

Text of Transportation, Repair and Use of Gambling Devices Provision of Johnson Act, 15 USC 1175

 

Sec. 1175. Specific jurisdictions within which manufacturing, repairing, selling, possessing, etc., prohibited; exceptions

 

(a) General rule

It shall be unlawful to manufacture, recondition, repair, sell, transport, possess, or use any gambling device in the District of Columbia, in any possession of the United States, within Indian country as defined in section 1151 of title 18 or within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States as defined in section 7 of title 18, including on a vessel documented under chapter 121 of title 46 or documented under the laws of a foreign country.

 

(b) Exception

(1) In general

Except for a voyage or a segment of a voyage that begins and ends in the State of Hawaii, or as provided in paragraph (2), this section does not prohibit -

 

(A) the repair, transport, possession, or use of a gambling device on a vessel that is not within the boundaries of any State or possession of the United States;

 

(B) the transport or possession, on a voyage, of a gambling device on a vessel that is within the boundaries of any State or possession of the United States, if -

 

(i) use of the gambling device on a portion of that voyage is, by reason of subparagraph (A), not a violation of this section; and

(ii) the gambling device remains on board that vessel while the vessel is within the boundaries of that State or possession; or

 

 

© the repair, transport, possession, or use of a gambling device on a vessel on a voyage that begins in the State of Indiana and that does not leave the territorial jurisdiction of that State, including such a voyage on Lake Michigan.

 

(2) Application to certain voyages

 

(A) General rule. Paragraph (1)(A) does not apply to the repair or use of a gambling device on a vessel that is on a voyage or segment of a voyage described in subparagraph (B) of this paragraph if the State or possession of the United States in which the voyage or segment begins and ends has enacted a statute the terms of which prohibit that repair or use on that voyage or segment.

 

(B) Voyage and segment described. A voyage or segment of a voyage referred to in subparagraph (A) is a voyage or segment, respectively -

 

(i) that begins and ends in the same State or possession of the United States, and

 

 

(ii) during which the vessel does not make an intervening stop within the boundaries of another State or possession of the United States or a foreign country.

 

© Exclusion of certain voyages and segments. Except for a voyage or segment of a voyage that occurs within the boundaries of the State of Hawaii, a voyage or segment of a voyage is not described in subparagraph (B) if it includes or consists of a segment -

 

(i) that begins and ends in the same State;

 

 

(ii) that is part of a voyage to another State or to a foreign country; and

 

 

(iii) in which the vessel reaches the other State or foreign country within 3 days after leaving the State in which it begins.

 

© Exception for Alaska

(1) With respect to a vessel operating in Alaska, this section does not prohibit, nor may the State of Alaska make it a violation of law for there to occur, the repair, transport, possession, or use of any gambling device on board a vessel which provides sleeping accommodations for all of its passengers and that is on a voyage or segment of a voyage described in paragraph (2), except that such State may, within its boundaries -

 

(A) prohibit the use of a gambling device on a vessel while it is docked or anchored or while it is operating within 3 nautical miles of a port at which it is scheduled to call; and

 

(B) require the gambling devices to remain on board the vessel.

 

(2) A voyage referred to in paragraph (1) is a voyage that -

 

(A) includes a stop in Canada or in a State other than the State of Alaska;

 

(B) includes stops in at least 2 different ports situated in the State of Alaska; and

 

© is of at least 60 hours duration.

[discjoker]

If you were right, that would mean you are smarter than the NCL lawyers who figured out that this 2000 law is valid and enforceable.

But you're not, and you're wrong.

Notice the bit of this federal law specifically mentioning Hawaii, and cruises that both begin and end there?

 

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Federal-Laws/cruise-to-nowhere.htm

 

 

Text of Transportation, Repair and Use of Gambling Devices Provision of Johnson Act, 15 USC 1175

 

Sec. 1175. Specific jurisdictions within which manufacturing, repairing, selling, possessing, etc., prohibited; exceptions

 

(a) General rule

It shall be unlawful to manufacture, recondition, repair, sell, transport, possess, or use any gambling device in the District of Columbia, in any possession of the United States, within Indian country as defined in section 1151 of title 18 or within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States as defined in section 7 of title 18, including on a vessel documented under chapter 121 of title 46 or documented under the laws of a foreign country.

 

(b) Exception

(1) In general

Except for a voyage or a segment of a voyage that begins and ends in the State of Hawaii, or as provided in paragraph (2), this section does not prohibit -

 

(A) the repair, transport, possession, or use of a gambling device on a vessel that is not within the boundaries of any State or possession of the United States;

 

(B) the transport or possession, on a voyage, of a gambling device on a vessel that is within the boundaries of any State or possession of the United States, if -

 

(i) use of the gambling device on a portion of that voyage is, by reason of subparagraph (A), not a violation of this section; and

(ii) the gambling device remains on board that vessel while the vessel is within the boundaries of that State or possession; or

 

 

© the repair, transport, possession, or use of a gambling device on a vessel on a voyage that begins in the State of Indiana and that does not leave the territorial jurisdiction of that State, including such a voyage on Lake Michigan.

 

(2) Application to certain voyages

 

(A) General rule. Paragraph (1)(A) does not apply to the repair or use of a gambling device on a vessel that is on a voyage or segment of a voyage described in subparagraph (B) of this paragraph if the State or possession of the United States in which the voyage or segment begins and ends has enacted a statute the terms of which prohibit that repair or use on that voyage or segment.

 

(B) Voyage and segment described. A voyage or segment of a voyage referred to in subparagraph (A) is a voyage or segment, respectively -

 

(i) that begins and ends in the same State or possession of the United States, and

 

 

(ii) during which the vessel does not make an intervening stop within the boundaries of another State or possession of the United States or a foreign country.

 

© Exclusion of certain voyages and segments. Except for a voyage or segment of a voyage that occurs within the boundaries of the State of Hawaii, a voyage or segment of a voyage is not described in subparagraph (B) if it includes or consists of a segment -

 

(i) that begins and ends in the same State;

 

 

(ii) that is part of a voyage to another State or to a foreign country; and

 

 

(iii) in which the vessel reaches the other State or foreign country within 3 days after leaving the State in which it begins.

 

© Exception for Alaska

(1) With respect to a vessel operating in Alaska, this section does not prohibit, nor may the State of Alaska make it a violation of law for there to occur, the repair, transport, possession, or use of any gambling device on board a vessel which provides sleeping accommodations for all of its passengers and that is on a voyage or segment of a voyage described in paragraph (2), except that such State may, within its boundaries -

 

(A) prohibit the use of a gambling device on a vessel while it is docked or anchored or while it is operating within 3 nautical miles of a port at which it is scheduled to call; and

 

(B) require the gambling devices to remain on board the vessel.

 

(2) A voyage referred to in paragraph (1) is a voyage that -

 

(A) includes a stop in Canada or in a State other than the State of Alaska;

 

(B) includes stops in at least 2 different ports situated in the State of Alaska; and

 

© is of at least 60 hours duration.

 

DING DING DING...WE HAVE A WINNER. Thank you for breaking this down. I just can't wait to see how "HOLG" is going to try to contradict what you (and I) have posted. Should be entertaining. :D

[jerhardt]

(B) Voyage and segment described. A voyage or segment of a voyage referred to in subparagraph (A) is a voyage or segment, respectively -

 

(i) that begins and ends in the same State or possession of the United States, and

 

 

(ii) during which the vessel does not make an intervening stop within the boundaries of another State or possession of the United States or a foreign country.

 

© Exclusion of certain voyages and segments. Except for a voyage or segment of a voyage that occurs within the boundaries of the State of Hawaii, a voyage or segment of a voyage is not described in subparagraph (B) if it includes or consists of a segment -

 

(i) that begins and ends in the same State;

 

 

(ii) that is part of a voyage to another State or to a foreign country; and

 

 

(iii) in which the vessel reaches the other State or foreign country within 3 days after leaving the State in which it begins.

 

 

So, in reading this and *trying* to interpret it, it would appear that because the Sun's repo to Hawaii begins in Canada and ends in Hawaii, the Casino is allowed to be open until it reaches Hawaiian waters? I really don't care one way or the other, but it would be nice to know.

[jerhardt]

(B) Voyage and segment described. A voyage or segment of a voyage referred to in subparagraph (A) is a voyage or segment, respectively -

 

(i) that begins and ends in the same State or possession of the United States, and

 

 

(ii) during which the vessel does not make an intervening stop within the boundaries of another State or possession of the United States or a foreign country.

 

© Exclusion of certain voyages and segments. Except for a voyage or segment of a voyage that occurs within the boundaries of the State of Hawaii, a voyage or segment of a voyage is not described in subparagraph (B) if it includes or consists of a segment -

 

(i) that begins and ends in the same State;

 

 

(ii) that is part of a voyage to another State or to a foreign country; and

 

 

(iii) in which the vessel reaches the other State or foreign country within 3 days after leaving the State in which it begins.

 

 

So, in reading this and *trying* to interpret it, it would appear that because the Sun's repo to Hawaii begins in Canada and ends in Hawaii, the Casino is allowed to be open until it reaches Hawaiian waters? I really don't care one way or the other, but it would be nice to know.

[KeystoneCruiser]

Lets' use history here, shall we:

 

The Wind has done Hawaii to Alaska and Alaska to Hawaii runs in the past. From what I remember of those reviews, the casino was not open until the ship reached Vancouver and it closed when the ship left Vancouver for Hawaii. (does anyone remember better on this??)

 

I do know that as soon as the ships enter Hawaiian waters, all gambling including bingo, must stop. Hawaiian waters are different than "international waters" elsewhere. I believe that in between the main islands is still "Hawaiian waters" and not "international waters" even though it is more than 50 miles.

 

The main thing to know though is that the POA, POAm and POH were all built without casinos because of the Hawaiian law.

[CruisinMK]

Any one way cruise can do casino gambling on the way to/from hawaii, outside of hawaiian waters. Same with the round trips to hawaii that begin/end in vancouver, california, mexico. The only ones that would get their casinos confiscated are round trips that begin and end in Hawaii, that only applies to the NCL Wind today.

[discjoker]

I am wondering where "holg" is. He said we know he is right, I wish he would enlighten us to how or why. Hmmmm <insert sound of crickets here>

[Holg]

Hello,

 

Here's the thing: Duh, of course if there was a way to make the casinos work then the NCL lawyers would've figured it out. They figured out "go to Fanning Island and you get to use a foreign-flagged shiP" thing.

 

As far as the International Waters things goes, I just don't understand what makes Hawaii think they're so damned special. Again, RT Charleston cruise: Casino open. Alaska crusie: casino open. RT Miami, RT New Orleans, etc etc etc. Again, Hawaii is a sovereign state and can pass what ever law they like for their terrotory but why do they get to trump maritime laws, some of which have been in place since around the same time humans first set foot on the islands?

 

Which brings us back to the original point of this thread: A casino on a cruise ship is NOTHING like building on on land, or even a riverboat casino that "cruises." It does NOT attract crime. A thousand old people do NOT show up once a month to lose their Social Security checks. It does NOT promote gambling addiction since gambling addicts are too broke to pay for the cruise in the first place. Think about it: a cruise ship casino is like a casino in a hotel in Vegas, if that hotel only allowed people staying at the hotel to gamble and required them to be staying for a week or longer.

 

So I will say it again: I simply don't understand why Hawaii would not just allow the casinos and tax the hell out of it.

 

PS.. I realize you're trying to bait me into saying something I shouldn't, like my opinion of the people of Boston, to get me banned from the board, but I'm not going to take the bait.;)

[discjoker]

Wow, Holg, you are flip floppin' more than John Kerry. You point was that there was no law stating that the casino could not be open (you have been shown the facts)...now your point is???

 

The law is the law. That's how it is. That is the will of the people of Hawaii.

[Holg]

If Hawaii passed a law tomorrow saying "only men are allowed to vote" would you say "The law is the law. That's how it is. That is the will of the people of Hawaii." ?

 

If Hawaii passed a law tomorrow saying "People from Massachusetts are not allowed to visit our state" would you say "The law is the law. That's how it is. That is the will of the people of Hawaii." ?

 

Of course you wouldn't because US Law trumps Hawaiian law and you know that.

 

So again, what makes Hawaii think they are so damned special?

 

It's kinda like whole riverboat casino thing: When they were first opened in Illinois (Joliet) the way the law worked was the you could only board the ship for a 15 minute window once every two hours. This simulated cruising. In other words, at about 1:30 the line starts. At 2pm they open the gates and let people on. At 2:15 they close the gates. If you arrive at 2:16, then you had to wait a hour and forty-five minutes to board. This lead to people driving 80 mph in downtown Joliet trying to make the boarding. So eventually they decided the boarding every two hours thing was more trouble than it was worth.

 

Gotta go to work now. I will talk with you later. :)