Egypt Alert

http://www.gayegypt.com/wherandwhern.html

RELATIVE RISKS

 

There is no place and no person who is safe from arrest when seeking gay sex in Cairo. The state security and sex police are at war with Cairo's gay community and the police are also dropping hints that they may start to arrest foreigners soon. Whether this is a bluff or not is impossible to know.

 

Before the police raid on the Queen Boat floating discotheque in May 2001, the following were sometimes said to be "must sees" for the gay visitor in Cairo.

1. The cruising areas around Medan Tahrir and Sharia Talaat Harb [ evenings ].

2. The Taverne Bar at the Nile Hilton Hotel [ very late on Thursday evenings ]

3. Harry's Bar at the Marriott Hotel [ evenings for those with a thick wallet ]

4. The Fishaawi Coffee Shop in Khan El Khalili [ almost anytime ]

5. The Corniche East Bank between the Nile Hilton and Ramses Hilton hotels [ at and around dusk ].

6. The Pyramids periphery [ Mornings or afternoons - if you have money and wish to entertain a handsome horse rider ] and

7. The shopping areas and cafes of Mohandiseen including the Coffee Roastery [ afternoons and evenings ]

 

However, there is a lot to be said in favour of avoiding the "fashionable" locales which are anyway changing every day in response to the constant police raids and actions. It might be less risky to use your own guesswork and experience to cruise any of Cairo's many parks, shopping malls, public toilets or swimming pools, amusement parks or seedy cinemas. It is probably safer to confidently chat up someone in a little known suburban park than to respond shyly but warmly to the overtures of a young man in Medan Tahrir who turns out to be a police guide. That said, however, nowhere in Cairo is ever completely safe.

 

Due to the dangers posed by police and the consequent shifts in cruising locales, the listings contained in the Cairo pages and indeed in all our other city guides should be regarded more as examples of the sort of opportunities and places in Cairo that may be worth trying out - providing you are willing to take that risk - rather than an exact guide in the conventional sense.

 

IS IT SAFE TO CAMP IT UP ?

 

Definitely not. If you act or dress in a camp manner, you are a more courageous man than most, but you are very likely to draw the attention and anger of the police. We can't say it's wrong to be so "foolhardy" - in fact it's very brave and in many ways extremely admirable - but do consider the likely consequences. Gays in prison are treated worse than other prisoners, are often subjected to beatings and sexual abuse and on conviction in court you are likely to receive a long sentence. Also consider the possible effect on your career and job prospects as your name may well be published in the newspapers.

 

DEALING WITH THE POLICE

 

If you are caught do not trust any promise of release in return for signing a confession. Especially if you are asked to sign one you can't read, don't understand or a blank piece of paper. However, if faced between the alternative of torture or signing something you must then weigh up the relative risks yourself but it is very likely they will be able to get you to sign eventually. If you can safely play for more time then do so and also consider if you can provide misleading information which may win your release but only if you have considered all the possible follow up questions and possible consequences if your "deceit" is discovered.

 

Don't assume you will never be caught. Do prepare for many hours what you will tell the police for they will get you to talk. Don't just refuse to say anything. If you decide to give them misleading information do give plenty of thought to it before you even start cruising the streets. You will be questioned for hours, even days, often without the opportunity of sleep. You are also likely to be beaten and/or threatened.

 

 

 

INTERROGATION ADVICE UPDATE

 

1. Use every opportunity to avoid arrest during a round-up. Once you are in detention you will wish you had not been so easily caught.

 

2. If you find yourself in police custody don't be too submissive or too aggressive as either will encourage them to be more violent.

 

3. Don't talk about anything. Just give your name and assert that you are innocent of any charge. Don't get involved in any discussion. Never use the word "Yes" - as this can be inserted onto a tape later as evidence of a confession. If asked "Do you want water ?", nod your head instead.

 

4. Don't sign anything, however trivial. It will be used to prove you "signed" your confession.

 

5. Don't listen to threats that you will be killed or raped. Never believe that submission will lessen your suffering and remember it is part of their strategy to terrify you.

 

6. Take your revenge on your interrogator by quietly despising everything about him. Use any opportunity to make an obscene gesture when he's not looking. It will help you to feel that you are not just a helpless victim. But don't get caught !

 

7. The police will tell you that your friends have betrayed you. But beware this is standard interrogation strategy to get you to betray your friends. They may also explain that they already know everything and tell you what happened. But don't let that persuade you to talk.

 

8. Never look directly at your interrogator, it will make it easier for him to tell when you're lieing. Instead look downwards and avoid eye contact.

 

9. Don't start talking too early. The police won't be so easily satisfied and they want to know more. May be more than you can tell them. Hold out as long as possible. If the torture becomes unbearable try fainting or exaggerating the pain. It may buy you more time. If this doesn't work tell them half truths which you think they might believe but which still makes it difficult for them to prove your guilt or to discover the identity of your gay friends and new meeting places.

10. Start thinking and planning today what you will do if you are ever arrested.

http://www.gayegypt.com/wherandwhern.html

 

 

 

10. Start thinking and planning today what you will do if you are ever arrested.

Better yet....avoid Egypt, and don't spend your hard-earned dollars supporting a regime which devalues gay life to this extent.

I visited Egypt...loved it.

I spent my money to see Cairo, cruise the Nile, see the Pyramids, the Cairo museum, and Luxor.

I used a first rate tour operator and never felt threatened. Did they figure out I was gay......of course.

The gay crew members on the Nile boat treated me like royalty and I never worried about anything.

But I went with the mind set that this was a different part of the world and did not push my luck.

Would I go back...in a heart beat.

Did I go to hang out at gay bars...in a Muslem country ...no. Did I meet someone at the hotel bar.....yes.

Did I like Egypt......yes. Would I recommend it...yes. Would I use an good tour operator....yes.

As for the dangers of being gay in certain circumstances....that can happen anywhere in the world...not just in Egypt. Local Politics change and so does the rules we need to observe.

Safe traveling to all.

i agree with rmsolympic.... Ive been to egypt 5 times., once more later this year and once again in 2008. It is a fantastic country...and I have to say that yes, you should not be overtly gay, dont draw attention to yourself and dont try and agravate the police. You know, you could always NOT have gay ex in Egypt, theres a 100% full proof method of not been subjected to another cultures values and risk their sometimes questionable justice system.

Having said that....yes I have had sex in Egypt...and its been great...in fact once was with one of the tourist police....but like travel in any country by someone of our "persuassion", discretion should be maintained at all times.

For Gods sake...(or Allah for that matter) GO TO EGYPT and ENJOY!!!! Its an experience youll never forget. SEX isnt everything!

Do I have a desire to see Egypt. No! I think you have to decide you want to see it for the scenery and history and take your chances. I love all things ancient Egyptian but I have no desire to walk into any country where being myself is dangerous. Sorry. Its a personal choice and I choose to stay away. Sex isn't everything and I don't go looking for it everywhere I go but I also don't need to pretend to be something I'm not.

My partner and I ended a Silversea Cruise in Pt. Said and spent a couple of days in Cairo afterwards. We didn't feel uncomfortable. The only "odd" occurrence was when we went to the Casino in our hotel, Four Seasons.

We didn't have our passports with us so the casino's desk attendant said she'd call the front desk to verify that we were guests. She asked my partner what room he was in and he told her. When she asked me my room number I replied that it was the same.

She said, "That cannot be". When we assured her that we were in the same room, she called the front desk who confirmed what we told her.

She shrugged as if to say, "you learn something new every day", made a notation in her log and granted us admission.

Do I have a desire to see Egypt. No! I think you have to decide you want to see it for the scenery and history and take your chances. I love all things ancient Egyptian but I have no desire to walk into any country where being myself is dangerous. Sorry. Its a personal choice and I choose to stay away. Sex isn't everything and I don't go looking for it everywhere I go but I also don't need to pretend to be something I'm not.[/

 

heya bramcruiser, hows it going. .. theres a difference between being discrete if you are doing something that is against another cultures morales and pretending to be something you are not. You may not agree with someone elses values but that shouldnt stop you from being who you are as long as you still adhere to their rules. Homosexuality is illegal in Egypt and that is that... Its a shame that you love all things ancient egyptian and can not enjoy the atmosphere and history that the country can offer., Im sure if you went you would appreciate those things much more having seen where they come from...hey if youre looking for a tour guide Id be happy to escort you if you wanna pay my way, im quite cheap really, business class emerates will do nicely...!!lol....regards...roscoe

We didn't have our passports with us so the casino's desk attendant said she'd call the front desk to verify that we were guests. She asked my partner what room he was in and he told her. When she asked me my room number I replied that it was the same.

 

She said, "That cannot be". When we assured her that we were in the same room, she called the front desk who confirmed what we told her. .

Nice story. I had a similar thing happen oddly in all places - San Francisco. The check-in clerk at the hotel had a puzzled look and told us when we were checking in that there was only one bed in the room. I refrained from a sarcastic "This is San Francisco, lady!" remark though but it was wildly tempting.:D

Hi Roscoe. Thanks for your extremely nice reply. I guess I left myself wide open for a wild flaming but you didn't. You are absolutely correct in that hiding the fact one is gay and being discrete are two different things. I am accusing myself of the one thing that always drive me crazy - not being able to see the difference.

I'm not an openly "obvious" gay and being gay is not the overwhelming thing about myself either and so I agree with your earlier statements. However, living in a freer society I sometimes find myself able to speak my mind without thinking about it. There is a lot in this world that is just so fascinating and worth visiting and yet so completely different from our values and culture. Those who travel to these places without repercussions understand that. I wouldn't say no to anyone who wishes to go. I agree that its the degree of comfort level and to what extent one is willing to make sacrifices to gain the new experience. I guess my own world is rather sheltered and I like it that way. I love history and new experiences as well as travel but I made a personal point to stay away from areas I know where what I am can get me into trouble. Maybe I am just an overly cautious person.

Thanks for the offer but if I would have to be able to afford to get to Egypt first. Plus the significant other might not be so understanding! LOL! But then again I'm cruising on the QE2 next year in Europe so how much farther can Egypt be?

when I was in egypt....I was myself. Not overtly famboyant......but traveling alone seemed to automatically signify I was gay. An American tourist..traveling alone.....when asked if I was married.....and said no...well the people in the travel industry are pretty savvy. The first night out on the Nile cruise (on the SunBoat 4 of A&K) the bar tender asked me if I was alone...I said yes. Next question....do you have a girl friend at home...answer was no....next question....a boy friend at home....answer not yet. Last question...do you think Egyptian men are sexy......

The Egyptologist made sure I saw the one gay Heiroglyph she knew of which was in a temple in the town of Dendera.

Was the crew nice to me on the boat.......very much so. The tour operator was very protective of me...and even watched what crew members got close...literally screening my interaction.

As to who I met in Cairo.....I figured I finally found out what the inspiration was for the ancient Egyptians to design those immense obelisks.....lordy lordy lordy.......

I'm nothing to look at...but I must admit I make sure I get a taste of each country I visit...being a carnivor. LOL

One last note....Roscoe sounds like a very interesting person. Anyone who gets to meet him while on holiday...please write a full review...bow to stern, keel to stack, port to starboard.

Just 4 weeks till the Diamond Princess with RSVP........hurry up!

OH RMS.....STOP IT....! You old flaterrer you! Seriously...i could tell you stories about Egypt and the men that would make the most ardent bathouse queen stand up and take interest and its much easier to initiate those incidents while you travel on your own......but im a nice boy.. though....this has reminded me of a certain storey....famous about me amongst my friends and my first trip to Egypt in 1990 and a guard in the viewing room of a certain Pharoh and his gold mask...my if that thing could talk! Fortunately...since then they have moved and changed the Exhibition and you cant lock the door now...at least...I dont think I was the reason....but im a nice boy now and you dont want to hear that storey anyway. The point is...funniily enough..and my experience of most arab (and subsequently hot climate countries) are that what the laws and morales say about homosexuality and what the men actually do are two different things. Turkey for instance...and the Hamams are a perfect example... they dont consider themselves to be gay unless they are the bottom....thus...their claim that apart from tourists...there is no homosexuality in Turkey.... HA!

Ive rambled...but there are some interesting paintings spread all over Egypt that show various Pharohs with supposed lovers etc I love the painting of Ramese 2 suckling a bull at Denderah..(actually a painting of Fertility) and there are a number of paintings in various tombs in the valley of the Kings with Pharohs in supposed embrasses with their lovers. As I said...its a fascinating country!

Hi Roscoe. I guess I left myself wide open for a wild flaming but you didn't.

 

No....but i did think about it!!!!

 

I can understand not travelling to a country in an attempt to object to their laws if we consider them archaic..and to a certain extent I follow that myself.....one of the reasons I refuse to go to Fiji.

 

Im a little biased about Egypt firstly because I love it so much and secondly because I know that it needs tourism so badly and by supporting the industry I can make the lives of the workers a better place. Hopefully one day they can be strong enough to make a stand and human rights can improve. But by not supporting their economy, nothing will improve.

 

And its just such a damn fine place!

 

Oh and hey for the QE2., Im envious...I f$&$#n love that ship.....what trip are you doing?

actually... I'm going to come down on the side on boycotting Egypt and showing solidarity with our jailed and oppressed brothers and sisters

and standing with organizations like Amnesty International and major Gay rights group in Egypt that called for a boycott when the 52 men were trialed

boycotts have had a huge success rate when one thinks of South Africa and the American Civil Rights

thats great rodraad...each to their own....how do you propose to boycott so that its noticed though..? the problem is that a few gay people not traveling there wouldnt be......what we need to do it find a way to support "our brothers" that would make a difference. There are no real "major" gay rights groups there, a small number of people and the very beginnings of one yes, but nothing of any consequence at this stage., in fact I would liken it to gay rights in the 1920s in America. A very small group, still too scared to stand up and be counted but slowly eating away at the establishment.Amnesty is a great start... any other ideas?

Its a good point...But change starts when each individual gay traveller makes a stand.

Can one person make a difference..well Rosa Parks, Nelson Mandela, and every person who boycotted South African goods during the boycott..yep.

Also one looks when gay pressure forced the City of London to ban remove Sandals ads (that use to ban same-sex couples to where we are not banned)

If gays wish to find about human rights they can visit www.iglhrc.org the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission and www.amnesty.org Amnesty International two organizations that I am involved with.

Not sure what the SANDALS ad was all about., what was the story? or as a famous Australian once said........PLEASE EXPLAIN.......? (sorry inhouse joke...you have to be an ozzie to get it)

Rosa Parks is a fine example...and along with Nelson Mandela, however both made changes from within. Their stands made far more impact because they were in the middle of the situation, its easy to make a judgement on a situation if you are on the outside, sometimes that can be an advantage, however I think when you are talking about a countries laws, moral, legal religous and cultural; you need to have a certain amount of knowldge that can only be gained by studying the facts more closely. I think a lot of the problems in this world have been caused by otherwise well meaning people who do not understand fully a situation who have jumped in and interfered without fully appreciating the implications.....but i dont think we should start discussing politics here!

Im not defending Egyptian law, Im giving them the country the courtesy of making and defining their own boundries without inflicting my own moral code on them. If i lived there, I would feel that I had a right to a say and probably would.......

I guess Im more concerned about helping the average worker to eat and live firstly. A lot of the workers in the tourism indistry are gay, Im helping their strength by contributing to their and their families income.

By supporting tourism, which makes up around 85% of their GDp, I feel Im doing my small bit. I admire you for your charity work, i guess ive taken the easy way out compared to you but consider by helping their struggling economy Im doing my small bit.

Id be interested to know form anyone reading this thread that as a gay man they had had an experience in Egypt with gay rights who could add somthing to rodraads or my point of view.....

When I was in Egypt, I noticed that lot's of Egyptian men were walking around arm in arm with each other. What's up with that?

haha//.....yes....disarming isnt it....especially when there is a genetic throwback that 1 in 100,000 of them has green eyes. Woof...arab men with piercing green eyes! Unfortuantely as with most arab countries....walking arm in arm is just a sign of friendship, you even see army and police doing it, nothing naughty bugger it.... tho....occasionally......

so what was your take on gay rights in Egypt jP?

I believe the Sandals things was about the resort named Sandals in the Caribbean that was an all inclusive resort (meaning everything paid for) that was not all inclusive (as you had to be str8 couples to go there)

Ed/Jeff

so what was your take on gay rights in Egypt jP?

I never really gave it a thought when I was there. I was hit on by a young guy in a store in Aswan. Actually was asked to have sex. But thought it would be dangerous, so I declined. That was my only "gay" experience in Egypt.

I was just on the Golden Princess doing Egypt on Nov 10th in Alexandria and Port Said and I thought it was very safe and I did notice a lot huh hummm opportunities for me to score especially at the Sakara Step Pyramids and Giza as well....those Camel Riders...whooofff!

Tony

:cool: :eek: :cool: