AmazedByCruising

I've read much about that incident, a lot written by you, but this is completely new to me. This seems like the most absurd law ever. Keeping guests at a muster station is a fine in itself, because those guests stop ordering martinis. Such law makes it unlawful to take care of your passengers.

Huh? There is no EU tax. The EU certainly wants direct taxes (VAT, income, wealth) as a source of income, but luckily we haven't reached that stage yet. This is just Spain wanting money. Like Germany could tax drinks at 40% or whatever they feel like while the ship is still close enough to Warnemunde, but that money would flow to Germany, not the EU.

I think another cultural or language problem to be solved while we're at it. It wasn't about cake. I hoped to say that a former stock broker shouldn't "still feel sickened" for clients who lost money and couldn't afford it. Because it's not her problem, not her fault, she was doing their job. Yes, people can get from rich to poor really quickly, but they were informed grown ups, with money, who decided to "gamble". (most people don't play this game because they don't have the money). Don't gamble if you cannot afford to lose, and the dealer should feel bad for showing Black Jack.

Oh men.. Such a big mess of misunderstanding. 😞 I took RetiredandTravel "No reason to call the man old." serious because Highplanesdrifters also said "When I first read this I figured he was some money manager I was unfamiliar with." Aging & again are in completely different drawers for me, please understand I need to translate. Sorry guys! I tried to "unreport".

@highplanesdrifters Terry is our much appreciated host here, go find another thread hosted by Warren Buffett please. I reported you post.

Why don't the ships simply use metal straws? There have never been plastic teaspoons, nor attempts to make a biodegradable version of teaspoons, no people complaining they need a proper spoon for medical reasons, or people suggesting to bring your own metal teaspoons to the ship. And guests and waiters don't throw them in the bin, either. I don't see how a straw differs so much from a teaspoon or a glass.

All my baggage would be worth 10 dollars of sold at a second hand market? The suitcase itself 5? I don't think that ships make use of that law. And the ship is flagged in Bermuda, it's not POA. I think everyone agrees: No, a ship can not detain you over a bill. If the purser says they can they are lying. There's a huge difference between "we'll sue you to hell so you will pay" and "we simply lock you up until you pay". In my, humble and not backed by studying law opinion, even saying that someone cannot disembark the ship for not paying a bill feels very illegal. Threatening to lock you up cannot possibly be legal. I don't think the employees at Guest Relations got creative, this must have come from higher up where there's a legal department thinking they can get away with this. This is the first time I think a well known ambulance chaser can make things better.

What's "cannot afford to takes the losses"? Most people have zero investments, at most they have 5k in savings. The clients who lost a lot of money gambled to step up, but unfortunately have to step down on the ladder towards being Elon Musk. Not nice, but not leading to hunger either. You didn't tell them to gamble, they asked you. Many got lucky, some didn't. Their problem is certainly not yours.

Well these lines were written when the chaos was over and the poster decided to explain the events on CC. "I was informed I had to pay the latter or I would not be able to leave the ship." and "I was however told I could not leave at this point as the bill was being discussed at higher levels and the case still needed finding. I did as instructed and sat down." I tend to believe her. Also because these are serious allegations. Let's not redo the other thread. A PVSA issue in Italy is very unlikely. Also hard to believe an Italian cabotage law had anything to do with it because it's really hard to not visit a non-Italian port, and even if they just went from Genova to Rome, necessity knows no law. I agree that Princess probably wouldn't actually try to hold her. But they said they would. That threat was serious enough to make her pay a huge sum for someone else's bill to regain freedom, so she took it for real. She had to choose between paying money she didn't even owe, or be locked up! Isn't it obvious that that's absurd and if such events happened in a land based hotel the owner would have to show up in court?

Thank you, I suspected you cannot hold someone (besides while waiting for the police to arrive). I feel it's justified to request a signature on a promissory note, where if you don't sign you get told the police is on its way, please sit there next to the man from security. Once "free" you can call the insurance company, the lawyer, your TA, the credit card company, a good friend, consumer protection. Just sort things out from the comfort of your own home, not while standing at guest relations, anxious to get of the ship as soon as possible. But in this case the guest was told they'd keep her on board unless she paid right now. The only reason to say the guest can't leave is that the ship thinks they can make the guest believe they will keep her on board. Otherwise it would be a very bad joke. Even if there is no intention to actually have security grab you when you make a run for the gangway, I believe you also cannot say you would, in order to "persuade" someone to pay now. IANAL but I don't usually threaten to lock up non-paying clients when they visit the bathroom, and if I would I think I would find myself in jail. Thanks @ontheweb for adding the details of this particular case which adds background, but I wanted to remove all the extra failures to focus on "you can't get of". Hence the theoretical case of "an unpaid visit to the Spa and the guest can't pay". But I do hope the experts in this thread will add their insights to the other thread as well.

There's another thread where someone was told they couldn't leave the ship without paying the bills first. For simplicity let's assume they simply didn't pay for their visit to the Spa, the credit card reached its limit, and they got to call their bank for free to resolve the issue. And the bank said no. And now the ship, registered in Bermuda, is back in Miami. And the ship says: you cannot leave. Give money first. IANAL, but can a hotel simply hold you if you don't pay? Or even say that they will? Under any law (US, UK, Bermuda)? Even when you know they'll release you before the new guests arrive anyway, just threatening to not let you leave the ship seems highly illegal to me. (I could go into a bit more detail, this being a medical emergency and the fact that it wasn't even their bill, and the credit card on file had plenty credit, but all those facts only make it even worse).

Indeed. I had a much smaller medical problem once (on Celebrity), and was very happy about the treatment at 9PM and actually surprised at the low costs. But for a situation where the patient isn't even responsive, I'd expect the ship to take care of the patient and anyone related, and certainly not lay an extra burden on family members. I believe the ships calls the Port Agent to arrange the ambulance etc. Certainly they can help with transportation, translation, hotels, explaining the procedures in Italy, too. For the relatively rare occurrence, there would have been a topic now how wonderful Princess handled the situation. Are you saying that the leverage is that they literally can hold you hostage until you pay?? When it's not even your bill? How about a guest that is a lawyer (which I'm not!), who doesn't like to be held hostage over someone elses bill and knows how to press charges in Bermuda? It's not only not very "legally responsible", it's of no use either IMHO. If the guest can pay, there's plenty time and a legal department to make sure they do eventually (and add extra costs for recouping the money). If they can't, you get yourself a stowaway that needs to sleep and eat.

I agree. Also, it's quite simple to measure the performance of a dish washer, and really hard to decide if the CEO made a good decision without waiting a long time. Personally, I believe a CEO should be paid a very moderate salary and get paid according to stock prices 5 years later. That removes the incentives to brush up the numbers every quarter, and make sure the CEO has skin in the game. If someone is not convinced that he can do better than the current CEO, he wouldn't take the job. I don't know how a Board of Directors works in the US, it seems to be a little different over here.

No, it's clean and simple in my opinion. The good ones, who make the company make more money, should be able to get a raise, the bad ones should be fired. It doesn't matter if it's a dish washer or a CEO.

Well, as a "CEO", some worker bees earn more than I do myself 🙂 When the company is big enough and CEO X makes decisions just a tiny bit better than CEO Y, the salary is worth it. I don't think it matters that a waiter earns just a tiny fraction of it. Why is it useful to compare his salary to what the CEO earns? You can also compare it to what his previous job paid, or what he pays to a teacher in Indonesia, or how much waiters at other companies earn. The fact that the payments happen to come from the same HR department doesn't automatically mean that their salaries should be compared. To put it otherwise: I think the waiter couldn't care less what the CEO makes. If the waiter wants to renew his contract, than the company makes him a better offer than any other company in the world, including the ones where the CEO gets paid a very moderate salary. But nowadays I think CEOs are not selected based on how brilliant they are at decision making but how good they are at politics.

I had a much more simple machine that did work like I described, but maybe this thing doesn't. I didn't mean to discuss the fine details of fitness machines. To explain what I mean by "air flow", this is a good picture.

As I expected, pie in the sky 🙂 The air flow would be similar to this gym machine, when you push left down, the pressure is used to lift right. Depending on your condition, you set the resistance of the air flow. The more violent waves, the harder it should be for the air to go from left to right. But your explanation makes sure it won't work anyway. 🙂

Thank you again. I googled a video of a trim tab because I didn't know they existed. So it basically works like a stabilizer, which doesn't need gravity but steers water in a different direction? (And of course it's fixed instead of active, and it prevents pitch instead of roll). From the video I saw that there are two trim tabs that can be controlled individually, making it possible to undo the listing when a speed boat is unevenly balanced. It is again a pie in the sky 🙂 , but I must ask. Would it work to split the duck tail in two parts, make them active, and let them suppress both pitching and rolling at the same time? Even more Gyro Gearloose-like, maybe not even with big electromotors but air that is flowing from one side to the other while the airflow being diminished by just the right amount of resistance to make the ride most comfortable. Generating "free" electricity at the same time.

It was one hand only, on Koningsdam in 2017. If I calculate correctly, dealer would have hit 19. It was a very sweet dealer 🙂

I don't doubt every cruise ship has enough buoyancy. They're not exactly filled to the limit with potatoes or oil. But what's the use of a duck tail if it doesn't push up like Archimedes told it should? It must go at least partly underwater every now and then, otherwise it's decoration.

Thank you, as always such interesting information and words I can google. OK, but this is CC, not a mariner site. So "we" think stability is a metric that somehow differentiates between a surf board and solid ground. Something like "seasickness cases/pax/day". To quote a site that might be right this time: "G", is the center of gravity. "GM", the stiffness parameter of a boat, can be lengthened by lowering the center of gravity or changing the hull form (and thus changing the volume displaced and second moment of area of the waterplane) or both. The "changing the hull form" is done by designing a duck tail, to change GM?

Hi Chief, then what is "stability"? I thought both rolling and pitching would be part of it. (as well as the other 4)

Got a bit more lucky once 🙂 (And even got permission for the picture)

I believe Mr Zandi shows how much distance there is between reality and someone being chief at Moody's (and economists in general, unless they teach). The people who have a "Covid stash" are not people who need that stash to make ends meet. When they start looking for a new car, but can suffer an extra year of having an old car, their problem with paying 10% extra in the supermarket is solved for the next 5 years. The people who do need such a stash now, whose rent is due but need to eat as well, already had a problem before Covid. They didn't fill their "stash" during Covid by not eating in a restaurant. Instead, the restaurant didn't pay them to wait tables. Now, good for us I guess, people who wait tables are not the prime target for cruise lines. Their original clientele did build a huge stash and they want to spend it on a a ship owned by CCL. (not RCCL or whatever, they want the real thing. CCL. The best. CCL. Be a winner, buy CCL. )

And now CCL is up 4.91%. Now how to convince my tax man that I'm not gambling but seriously investing 🙂