Kobe beef burger

We'll be on the Riviera in a few weeks...thinking of having Kobe beef burger or Wagyu beef burger. Someone is telling me that no cruise ship really serves these. I'm told it will be beef from California.

So what is it that they serve in the Polo Grill?

I don't know what kind of beef it was, but it was mostly salt!

Technically, Kobe beef comes from Kobe, Japan. Wagyu beef is raised the same way, is pretty similar, but in the U.S. (and possibly elsewhere) and is purchased from sources in the U.S. (and likely elsewhere), and is served widely in the U.S. (and possibly elsewhere).

The Kobe Burger is described in the menu as being Wagyu beef.

My favorites at Waves on the Marina were the Surf and Turf sandwich and the Ahi Tuna sandwich. If you ask, they'll put the lobster from the Surf and Turf on the Tuna. Surf and Surf.

Here's a link to the menu:

http://www.1mpages.com/cruise/OceaniaMarinaMenu.html#Waves

Technically, Kobe beef comes from Kobe, Japan. Wagyu beef is raised the same way, is pretty similar, but in the U.S. (and possibly elsewhere) and is purchased from sources in the U.S. (and likely elsewhere), and is served widely in the U.S. (and possibly elsewhere).

In addition to coming from Japan, Kobe beef is prohibitively expensive; Wagyu a bit more reasonable and an acceptable "substitute", IMO

We'll be on the Riviera in a few weeks...thinking of having Kobe beef burger or Wagyu beef burger. Someone is telling me that no cruise ship really serves these. I'm told it will be beef from California.

 

So what is it that they serve in the Polo Grill?

Below, I've posted exerpts about Wagyu beef from the Wikipedia entry:

Wagyu (和牛, Wagyū, literally Japanese cow) refers to severalbreeds of cattle genetically predisposed to intense marbling and to producing a high percentage of oleaginous unsaturated fat. The meat from wagyu cattle is known worldwide for its marbling characteristics, increased eating quality through a naturally enhanced flavor, tenderness and juiciness, and a high market value. In several areas of Japan, beef is shipped with area names. Some examples are Kobe, Mishima, Matsusaka, Omi, and Sanda beef. Highly prized for their rich flavor, these cattle produce arguably the finest beef in the world. These different breeds produce beef that range from expensive (by any measure) to extremely expensive (about $50 per 150 grams of filet steak sold retail in Japan)...

There are four major breeds of wagyu: Japanese Black (黒毛和種, Kuroge washu), Japanese Brown (赤毛和種, Akage Washu), Japanese Polled (無角和種, Mukaku Washu), and Japanese Shorthorn (日本短角和種, Nihon Tankaku Washu). Japanese breed names include Tajima Hida (Gifu Pref.), Tottori, Shimane, Kochi and Kumamoto. Kumamoto Prefecture is famous for its red wagyu cattle. The more famous black variety has its origins in Kobe...

In the United States, Japanese Wagyu cattle were bred with Angus cattle to create a crossbred animal that would be more able to survive the U.S. climate and ranching methods. The meat of this crossbreed was more marketable to the typical American buyer, for whom the meat of the wagyu cow is "too white". The meat of the crossbreed provides the balance of marbling and red meat desired by them. This crossbreed has been named American Style Kobe Beef.

Designed to mimic the diet that Japanese cattle were receiving, Wagyu cattle in the United States are fed a mixture of corn, alfafa, barley, and wheat straw.

As of 2007, the U.S. cannot ship wagyu beef to Japan, as Japan requires that beef imported from the U.S. be from cattle not older than 20 months; U.S. Wagyu cattle are usually slaughtered at 30–35 months...

Bottom line: Beef from California may be American Style Kobe Beef.

Here's a link to the menu for Wolfgang Puck's steak house. On it, you'll see very explicit information about the source of the beef, including distinctions between different sources for USDA Prime meat and for Wagyu meat.

http://www.wolfgangpuck.com/content/files/foodmenu_CUT%20BH%20MENU%2012.9.11%20for%20website.%20do%20not%20use.pdf

I would almost bet my life it is not Kobe

In Tasmania we grow huge amounts of Black Wagyu most of it going to Japan.

They have an idyllic life on grass for a couple of years then of to the feedlot

for a bit of a holiday ;).

I have been told by a couple of Cockies ( Sheep and Cattle Farmers ) and from

a grower / butcher / exporter that anything under a couple of years of age ,

you would be wasting your money on Wagyu .

ksps... - thank you for that information. You can learn a lot here on CC :)

I had this burger recently on Regatta and it was delicious.I use very little salt and almost never add it to my food, and rarely cook with it. Didn't find it salty at all. Made a nice change on a 21 day cruise!

Mo

As hinted in post #6 of this thread, Wagyu is not the locally grown Kobe cattle, but a crossbreed. So you're not even getting a true local version of Kobe beef. As hinted at in post #7, paying extra for Wagyu isn't really something worth the cost.

You can read all about Kobe beef being "Food's Biggest Scam" in this article in Fortune magazine.

However, if what you're being served is delicious, enjoy it, even if it's not what it seems to be.

In my own opinion though, Kobe beef burgers are the biggest rip-off of all. What makes Kobe beef so special is that it's so tender, juicy and flavorful. That's all attributable to it's marbling, or fat. So when you grind the stuff up, you basically lose the benefit of tenderness. As for the flavor, it's also due to fat. You could grind up some domestic beef, throw in some extra fat for flavor and juiciness, and come to a pretty good approximation of what a Kobe beef burger tastes like at a much lower cost.

If you will look at the menu it shows it is a Kobe burger, not a Kobe BEEF burger. It states it is made with wagyu beef so there is not misrepresentation.

If you will look at the menu it shows it is a Kobe burger, not a Kobe BEEF burger. It states it is made with wagyu beef so there is not misrepresentation.

Wagyu (often domestic Wagyu or Australian Wagyu) is frequently bandied about as a synonym or “translation” of Kobe. See it on a menu or in a store and ask about it and you will often be told it is the breed of cattle the famous Japanese Kobe beef comes from. Many websites selling “Wagyu” say exactly this.

So what exactly does "Kobe burger" mean? That it's made in Kobe? That it's not beef unless you read the description? Not trying to be argumentative about this. I'm just not seeing your point. It's called a Kobe burger. The description says it's beef. So wouldn't that mean the name of the menu item a misrepresentation?

I was originally looking at the Polo Grill menu. There are 2 burgers listed...Kobe Burger and Wagyu beef burger.

The Waves menu looks good. I always got a regular cheeseburger which was really delicious but on our upcoming cruise I will definitely try the surf and turf.

Two weeks from today we will be at the airport!

So what exactly does "Kobe burger" mean? That it's made in Kobe? That it's not beef unless you read the description? Not trying to be argumentative about this. I'm just not seeing your point. It's called a Kobe burger. The description says it's beef. So wouldn't that mean the name of the menu item a misrepresentation?

To say "Kobe beef" is unnecessary repetition. The very definition of Kobe demands that the meat be beef.

And when I say "definition" I mean just that. The beef coming out of Japan must meet specific goverment standards for both cattle breed and place of origin. This is similar to the more familiar A.O.C (France) and D.O.C.(Italy) government identification system. However, the Japanese laws haven't stopped menu writers elsewhere from being casual with the word "Kobe." You're right to use the word "misrepresentation" and at some point there will probably be litigation about the use of "Kobe." For the moment, marketing types are taking advantage of Kobe's cachet.

Here's an interesting explanation as to why there's Kobe/Wagyu blurring: "Wagyu cattle must be born in the Kobe region in order to be called 'Kobe beef.' The Wagyu breed, however, is only regulated on genetic lines, so Wagyu beef can be born and raised anywhere, as long as it is from a Wagyu genetic line. These regulations offer ranchers looking to increase sales of an extremely expensive product alternatives to raising Kobe beef in Kobe."

Incidentally, we visited Japn in 2010 and discovered that one of the two "M" locales for raising beef -- Mishima or Matsusaka -- is more highly regarded locally than the Kobe version. In the rest of the world, I suspect that Kobe won the public relations prize perhaps because the name is easier for Westerners to say.

I was originally looking at the Polo Grill menu. There are 2 burgers listed...Kobe Burger and Wagyu beef burger.

 

The Waves menu looks good. I always got a regular cheeseburger which was really delicious but on our upcoming cruise I will definitely try the surf and turf.

 

Two weeks from today we will be at the airport!

I see that now. My mistake. As soon as I saw "burger" my mind went to Waves. Personally, as much as I love a good burger, and I do love a good burger, I'd have to dine at Polo quite a few times before I got around to that on the menu. Especially since the burgers available at Waves everyday for lunch are pretty good, IMO.

The Polo Grill menu that I found posted online only shows one burger, a "Kobe Burger 'Rossini'", which is described as being Wagyu beef. So, any way you look at it no true, Japanese, Kobe beef on Oceania.

Enjoy your trip!!

So what exactly does "Kobe burger" mean? That it's made in Kobe? That it's not beef unless you read the description? Not trying to be argumentative about this. I'm just not seeing your point. It's called a Kobe burger. The description says it's beef. So wouldn't that mean the name of the menu item a misrepresentation?

To me it just means a burger made in the Japanese/Kobe style. It could be made of ground squid with a Japanese type sauce and still be called a Kobe burger.

Is the Swiss burger made of beef and all other ingredients from Switzerland? Is the Texan burger made only of ingredients from Texas?

I have been to Japanese restaurants that advertise Kobe sushi, Kobe fish etc. Beef may be their best known export but Oceania makes no representation that the beef is from Kobe.

To me it just means a burger made in the Japanese/Kobe style. It could be made of ground squid with a Japanese type sauce and still be called a Kobe burger.

Okay, you're shared your point of view. Do you want to persist in that opinion now that you've learned you're wrong? Don't take my word on this topic. Do a Google search for Kobe beef and you'll discover that "Kobe" has a very precise meaning. It is not subject to interpretation or borrowed usage. None of the possibilities you mention both above and later in your post can legitimately be called "Kobe."

Is the Swiss burger made of beef and all other ingredients from Switzerland? Is the Texan burger made only of ingredients from Texas?

There is a legal definition for Kobe beef, there are none for Swiss or Texas burgers in the US.

I have been to Japanese restaurants that advertise Kobe sushi, Kobe fish etc.

Sigh. You may have had a delicious meal at any and all of the restaurants serving "Kobe sushi" or "Kobe fish" but you were being marketed big-time. The restaurant was hoping the status of Kobe beef would rub off on their other dishes -- and probably charging a premium for the borrowed status.

Beef may be their best known export but Oceania makes no representation that the beef is from Kobe.

Actually, Oceania probably is misrepresenting the beef. Given the price of Kobe beef, I can't imagine Oceania's per person food budget would cover the real thing. Oceania's meat may be luxurious and delicious Wagyu beef, but it probably isn't the real deal from Japan.

(Incidentally, many Americans don't like the taste and meltingly soft texture of either Kobe or Wagyu after having grown up on the American style of beef.)

Use the link (below) to get to a pdf of Oceania's wine list. The first entry on the list is "Louis Roederer Cristal, Reims, France 2002". That's what Oceania will deliver to your table if that's what you have ordered. You won't be served Spanish Cava or Italian Franciacorta Brut. The same could be said for every single wine on the list. Why should beef be any different on Oceania?

Now, we get to the paradox. I asked why the Kobe beef should be different from the wine. Of course, it shouldn't. Yet it is and I'm not even close to being outraged. I know what I will likely get if I order "Kobe" despite what the menu says. I'm not a lawyer. I don't work for the Japanese agency that certifies Kobe beef. I'm simply a cruiser who is willing to tolerate "Kobe" along with several other inauthentic details in the restaurants for the over-all joy of sailing with Oceania. The day may come when someone makes legal noises about the word "Kobe" on the Oceania menu, but I won't be that person and the list of restaurants who need to get a similar letter is very, very, very long.

http://www.oceaniacruises.com/documents/menus/oclass/gdr/Wine-List-Insert-GDR.pdf

As far as the menus go...I found this on the O website when I looked at the Riviera. It shows the Kobe burger and a Wagyu beefburger''

http://www.oceaniacruises.com/documents/menus/oclass/polo-grill/01-Polo-Grill-Main-Menu.pdf

But the Waves menu when you look at Riviera dining on the O website is not as extensive as the one cruzmaven linked to above. No surf and turf

I understand your confusion because of the spacing on that menu.

The name of the item is: Kobe Burger Rossini.

What follows is the description of the dish: 6 oz Wagyu Beef Burger on Ciabatta with Truffle Demi-Glace and Skinny Fries with Parmesan Foam.

So they call it a Kobe Burger but its made from Wagyu beef. If that makes sense.

I think the Waves menu on the O website is not correct as far as the Marina/Riviera go. That menu is on the R ships. Marina and Riviera have the more extensive menu with the Surf and Turf sandwich, linked above. Or they did last August when I was on Marina.

As far as the menus go...I found this on the O website when I looked at the Riviera. It shows the Kobe burger and a Wagyu beefburger''

I followed your link and I'm happy to put most of the confusion to rest.

I believe the Kobe Burger Rossini and the Wagyu burger are one and the same. The layout of the menu makes it appear that there are two separate entries, but the word "Rossini" is the clue linking the two. In fact, the two-line entry about the Wagyu beef is really the description of Kobe Burger Rossini.

Rossini refers to the Italian opera composer. As was typical of that era, chefs would create dishes and name them after a person to honor that individual. (Think Lobster Newburg, although that is the second name after the chef had a falling out with Mr. Wenberg. Think Coupe Melba. Think Eggs Benedict. More recently, think Caesar Salad.).

The original French dish, Tournedos Rossini, consists of filet mignon topped with a slice of foie gras and a truffle-flavored sauce.

Now, look at the Wagyu entry. The filet mignon gets re-interpreted as a high quality beef burger. The foie gras of the original gets omitted, but the truffles still exist to flavor the demi-glace sauce (concentrated veal stock).

Bottom line: There is only one "burger" dish on the menu at Polo Grille and Oceania clearly explains the beef patty is made from Wagyu beef, most likely domestic raised.

Did Oceania think no one would order the dish without the word "Kobe" in the name? Why not call the dish "Chopped Steak Rossini" and use a phrase like "Kobe-style" or "American Kobe" if Wagyu alone would be too confusing to most cruisers.

I think we've got the whole story now and Oceania isn't quite as guilty as I originally thought!