Costa Concordia - Why People Died near Muster Station

[Hebersgyll]

A muster station is not a place where you abandon ship, it is a place to gather in an emergency and receive instructions from a crew member, you may muster and never have to abandon ship, such as the Princess Fire, and you may be at you muster station for hours and then never get off the ship.

 

IMHO a muster station in a lounge or dining room, that has exits to the embarkation deck, is the better option. This leaves the embarkation deck clear for the crew to ready the lifeboats, if they are going to be needed, without passenger interuption. You also don't know, until it happens, which lifeboat you will be assigned to, the order to abandonship will be done by muster station, and that order, along with the lifeboat you are assigned to, will be dictated by the nature and location of the emergency situation, and should be communicated to the crew by the captain once he gives the AS order

 

Well said. I don't cruise too often so its highly unlikely I would ever encounter an emergency situation. But if it did happen, I would still be very confident in the evacuation planning undertaken by the cruise operator, the training of the crew, their commitment to passsenger safety above their own, etc.

 

So, mainly, I would be only too willing to obey orders, do as I am told & try to assist others along the way.

 

However, I would certainly keep evaluating the changing situation and be prepared to take account of my own instincts. I hope I would have been among those who would have made their way out of Twin Towers rather than complying with a 'stay in the office' request.....remained on deck on Concordia rather than going back to the cabin as requested.

 

So, 'abandon ship' and 'get in the lifeboat' may be an order as far as the captain's concerned but if my own evaluation was that this really wasn't the best idea I think I might just register that communication as a 'request'.. or be prepared to disobey orders just this once?

 

Bear in mind that, while an unknown number died aboard Concordia, some who abandoned the ship also died and the ship only partly sank. So, keeping to a high area as the ship listed was a good plan for some. Eventually, they were all rescued,many by helicopter without any of the risks of a lifeboat capsizing, or being swept agains rocks, or the even greater hazards of trying to swim ashore on a coast with razor -sharp rocks through very cold seas.

 

I appreciate, of course, that too many individuals being free-thinkers & doing their own evaluations might be a nightmare for a captain needing to evacuate 2000+ expeditously, but then 99% of times there will be no difference between the self-evaluation of own self-interest and what you are being told to do!

[SallyUK]

To the original question of how most of the sadly deceased were found near muster stations, and appeared to have been fully prepared for the ensuing evacuation, I point you all to an incident where an airliner caught fire shortly after landing. Most of the dead were found piled up within two or three rows of the exit doors. Similar situation?

 

In a panic, particularly where fire or flood is concerned, people try to run away- and in their panic, they seem to create a situation where they all try jam themselves through the same hole at once, and think that their survival out of necessity means the non-survival of others. The old "every man for themselves" call.

 

Airline cabin crew are specifically trained in how to facilitate the safe and swift evacuation of an aircraft cabin- indeed, their role of throwing the odd plate of food at passengers here and there is the least of the responsibilities of the job. What training do waiters/bar staff etc on cruise ships get in regards to evacuation/emergency response other than to put their pretty hats and life jackets on and stand around directing passengers to muster points at pre-departure muster drills? I would be very interested to find out.

 

I've mentioned this on another thread, so apologies if people have read this elsewhere. My husband is a certified safety trainer in the airline industry. When we board a cruise ship he gets us to walk the decks, working out routes from our cabin to the muster station and using different stairwells in case of emergency. He gets me to run my hand along the wall, counting the recesses to the doors, so that I can do this in the dark. He's always said, "now imagine that the orientation is different, you are walking on the doors, or its dark, but the numbers you count are the same". He also gets us to check our lifejackets are in serviceable order - all of them - in case we pick one up in a hurry and its broken.

 

As Wombat says, it is very common for people to panic in an emergency, it is terribly sad but true. Some people die in planes because they try to unfasten their seatbelts the way they do in their car and then panic because the buckles are in a different place, or because they don't know how to open the over-wing exits. Frequent flyers who know their way around planes and crew are, as I understand it, statistically more likely to survive.

 

What has happened with the Concordia will be revealed over time and after painstaking work by the brave recovery team. Tragically sad stories will surface about lives lost. Whatever has happened to that person - a glance to the head that made them pass out, a broken leg that meant that they couldn't escape, water coming into an area they couldn't escape from, panic freezing them - all of these are possible answers that could help safety planning in the future, but none of these answers makes any of the deaths less tragic. The whole situation is just awful.

[medicalma'am]

Thinking about cruises I have been on with many elderly/infirm people using motorized carts, I can see how there were those with mobility problems who were 'stuck'. Those things have to travel in elevators to get from deck to deck. Certainly elevators could not be used without power or just the list of the ship. These poor souls would have been left to the mercy of others to help them. I can also see panicked family members wanting to 'stay put' to wait for the members of their group/family. They could have wandered off to look for their loved ones. Hypothermia would have set in fast after the water got waist high, and unconsciousness was not far off.

 

I tried to imagine the last ship I was on, the ship at a 60 degree angle, and what the halls and stairwells might have been like. You would need mountain climbing equipment to get around.

 

I have been stuck in one of those stairwells on a port day when a drill was called. We could not leave the areas because all doors were shut and staff were manning those doors to keep us from opening them. I think this was a fire drill (NCL). It lasted about 10 to 15 minutes, staff had radios that they had to report in by. It was quite interesting.

 

[peterv]

Since when has this become personal?? Also, some facts maybe need to be checked up on before shouting the odds ..... a modern cruise ship, which the Condordia certainly was, will stop within a few ship-lengths travelling at 20knots..... they simply swivel the pod propulsion 180deg - do some research. This is a regular part of their sea-trials before going into service.

 

There could be no crash stop as the ship no longer had power to run the props (Concordia has props, not azipods). So there was no sudden stop, or for that matter any sudden turns.

 

The ship coasted to a stop with the rudder over so that it would avoid the island. Once it had come to a stop, they used the bow thrusters to move it closer to shore.

 

I personally believe that there is starboard side damage that caused the ship to list to starboard. The hole in the port side was big enough to flood the compartments fully moments after impact. If the watertight doors were closed, this should have prevented water from entering any other area.

 

You can see that the ship is settling starboard stern first which would indicate that the ship probably hit more rocks as it drifted into its current position.

 

Just my opinion.

 

As to the fate of the missing/dead, at least the one crewman who was found, the violinist, he made the fatal mistake of going below to retrieve his violin. As to the others, some may have died in the muster stations due to health problems, or by staying there too long. I believe one man was found in the dry side of the ship in the corridor. Once again possible health problem or injury from the final list.

[Taxguy77]

I don't know why they died....but, statistically speaking, what are the chances of something major happening again in the next 130 days?Considering this was an accident that was 1000% human error....every captain and every cruiseline will be "super safe" for the immediate future.

 

Enjoy your trip..........!

 

About the same as their happening in the PAST 130 days!

[strathnaver]

About the same as their happening in the PAST 130 days!

 

Don't think so! Gotta say I agree with MsTabbyKats.

[strathnaver]

A muster station is not a place where you abandon ship, it is a place to gather in an emergency and receive instructions from a crew member, you may muster and never have to abandon ship, such as the Princess Fire, and you may be at you muster station for hours and then never get off the ship.

 

IMHO a muster station in a lounge or dining room, that has exits to the embarkation deck, is the better option. This leaves the embarkation deck clear for the crew to ready the lifeboats, if they are going to be needed, without passenger interuption. You also don't know, until it happens, which lifeboat you will be assigned to, the order to abandonship will be done by muster station, and that order, along with the lifeboat you are assigned to, will be dictated by the nature and location of the emergency situation, and should be communicated to the crew by the captain once he gives the AS order

 

Exactly. It is to get pasengers together and ready for whatever action may be required in whatever emergency may be unfolding. Warm and dry is good. Then prompt decisions and clear instructions can be given to them from the bridge / crew (... and sadly neither appears to have happened on Concordia as those responsible tries to cover their backside for as long as they could)

 

The only cruise (see signature list) I have ever had a muster station outside was the last one on the Disney Dream. It was explained on the others that if abandon ship is required, certain areas may be unusable through fire or listing and you may be directed by crew to a different boat / raft. On each cruise it was reiterated at the drill that the General Emergency Signal is not a signal to abandon ship.

[Vampire Parrot]

Originally Posted by Stellenbosch

Since when has this become personal?? Also, some facts maybe need to be checked up on before shouting the odds ..... a modern cruise ship, which the Condordia certainly was, will stop within a few ship-lengths travelling at 20knots..... they simply swivel the pod propulsion 180deg - do some research. This is a regular part of their sea-trials before going into service.

 

As others have pointed out, Costa Concordia is not a podded ship.

 

I've just examined the data for the Zuiderdam, a Vista class podded ship of approximately 85,000 tons. Her length is approximately 285 metres, her displacement is approximately 43,500 tons. So she's typical of many modern podded cruise ships.

 

The crash stop test was conducted with Zuiderdam travelling at 20.91 knots in calm weather. She took 6 minutes and 18 seconds to stop, during which she covered 1848 metres. That's not just a few ship-lenghts, that's over six ship lengths. It's over a mile.

 

So yes, I've done my research.

 

VP

[at_nyc]

Since when has this become personal?? Also, some facts maybe need to be checked up on before shouting the odds ..... a modern cruise ship, which the Condordia certainly was, will stop within a few ship-lengths travelling at 20knots..... they simply swivel the pod propulsion 180deg - do some research. This is a regular part of their sea-trials before going into service.

It only got personal because you took it personally. And put your personal reputation at stake.

 

You made statement about the best course of action on ship handling. So it's fair to ask what your experience in captaining is. If you had none, you could eaily clarify as such, and be ready to accept more experience opinions.

 

I'm happy to clarify I haven't captain any big ship myself. But fluid dynamic happened to be my field of study at one time. And I do own a small boat so have first hand experience of how any ship respond to course altering input in water, which is quite different than how a car responds on dry land.

 

And your "research" is highly flawed, as pointed out by many others. You confused the propulsion used on the Concordia. And you also mis-quoted the stoppign distance of even the pod-propelled ships.

[Vampire Parrot]

I do own a small boat so have first hand experience of how any ship respond to course altering input in water, which is quite different than how a car responds on dry land.

 

Very true! I was skipper of a cabin cruiser (about 50') many years ago, I had to remember that on narrow rivers that applying a lot of rudder would cause the stern to swing out away from the rudder (which is what I believe happened to Costa Concordia - although given how close she was to the rocks before turning to starboard, the Captain probably had no other choice). I was happy to let others drive once we were under way, (with strict instructions to call me if things were getting interesting!) but the one and only time I let someone else have the conn to moor up ended up in a "close quarters" situation and I had to quickly take back the conn.

 

Incidentally - podded ships are incredibly controllable and maneuverable even at very slow speeds, but the engine limitations make it very interesting. For example, on Arcadia and the other Vista-class ships, the minimum rpm for the pods is 30 rpm (less rpm causes damage due to lack of lubrication), which if the thrust was directed aft would give maybe five knots. So to go more slowly, the pods are actually pointed more towards each other, so that most of the thrust is cancelled out. Point the pods directly at each other gives zero thrust. Whoever is driving has to be able to mentally add thrust vectors in their head to be able to get the ship to do what they want it to - but for those who can do that "in real time", nothing beats a podded ship for maneuverabiliy. I was on Arcadia when the Captain brought us along oh-so-gently in a force 8 gale at one port - very impressive. That Captain said to me later "I love my pods" and I don't think he could ever go back to being the Master of a conventional ship!

 

VP

[at_nyc]

Steering a boat, just as driving a car, is a SKILL that needs some learning.

 

In the older days, kids were allowed to drive tractors in the farm. They learn by trial and error. But on public roads, each and every driver had to be licensed, for the safety of other road users.

 

After driving for years, much of the skills become intuitive. People tend to forget it's actually a learned skill and gets confused when seeing others not knowing how to drive.

 

Ships in water behave differently. It's another skill that can be learned. It's not unusual people who had not captain a ship just assume ships can be steered and stopped like cars!

 

When I first got my 16' boat, I practiced getting it into a 16' (plus a couple inches) berth without too many back and forth. Provided entertainment for a couple of onlookers watching me practice. :) No different than watching someone trying to parallel park a Hummer into a space vacated by a VW Bug. ;)

 

Trying to get a several hundred feet long cruise ship to stop at a rock shelf when the engine room was flooded isn't for amatures (some of whom were too quick to critisize).

[Vampire Parrot]

Trying to get a several hundred feet long cruise ship to stop at a rock shelf when the engine room was flooded isn't for amatures (some of whom were too quick to critisize).

 

Very true. But the evidence I've seen points to the ship being completely out of control after the collision with the rock. Maybe the rudder was still under control - but the engines definitely wern't.

 

I'm not familiar with the electrical system of Costa Concordia, but given that the engine room had flooded and that the only electrical power available came from the emergency generator, I doubt that the bow thrusters could be used. I'll explain why I believe this. If someone else has more information then please say so.

 

To start with, the pictures of Costa Concordia when she was listing slightly shows that none of her cabins are lit, her promenade/lifeboat deck *is* lit, and that she's showing lights that indicate she's not under command. From this, and from the bloody great hole in the hull which flooded the engine room, all evidence points to the only electrical power available comes from the emergency generator.

 

The bow thrusters (and on Costa Concordia, stern thrusters) will require around 1.5 to 2 MW each and so will be connected to the main electrical bus (11kv on Vista ships) which is powered by the main diesel generator sets in the engine room. The emergency generator on Vista class ships (Zuiderdam, Arcadia, etc) can only power the 690V emergency bus and can produce around 1.2MW, and I would place a bet that the same is true on the Costa Concordia. Even if it could be rigged up to power the 11kv bus, it would probably trip if any of the bow thrusters were turned on. So I don't believe the thrusters were used to bring Costa Concordia to the island - I think it was the wind and current that drove her onto the rocks.

 

VP

[at_nyc]

So I don't believe the thrusters were used to bring Costa Concordia to the island - I think it was the wind and current that drove her onto the rocks.

It could very well be that the thrusters were out of action after the engine room flood.

 

But if the ship had done a 180, that has to be deliberate. It could be the rudder were on full from being applied to turn away from the rock before the impact.

[at_nyc]

I think the point is when taking any transport operated by others, be it bus train, plane, cruise ship, or even your neighbors car, you place your faith in the operator.

In such case, your "instinct" had no place.

 

But your analogy had no bearing on the original statement. In the situation discussed, passengers have free choice of whether to follow the instruction, or not.

 

The reason to follow instruction is have a orderly exit, which will be more efficient than each-for-his-own. However, one needs to be highly skeptical to such instruction. Because we've seen many example of such instruction being misleading and led to unnecessary death.

 

So I would not just "have faith" on the leader. I would use my own eyes. If the instruction is effective, I'll do as instructed. Otherwise, I'll act on my own instinct.

 

"Trust but varify"

[akupupule]

Very true. But the evidence I've seen points to the ship being completely out of control after the collision with the rock. Maybe the rudder was still under control - but the engines definitely wern't.

 

I'm not familiar with the electrical system of Costa Concordia, but given that the engine room had flooded and that the only electrical power available came from the emergency generator, I doubt that the bow thrusters could be used. I'll explain why I believe this. If someone else has more information then please say so.

 

To start with, the pictures of Costa Concordia when she was listing slightly shows that none of her cabins are lit, her promenade/lifeboat deck *is* lit, and that she's showing lights that indicate she's not under command. From this, and from the bloody great hole in the hull which flooded the engine room, all evidence points to the only electrical power available comes from the emergency generator.

 

The bow thrusters (and on Costa Concordia, stern thrusters) will require around 1.5 to 2 MW each and so will be connected to the main electrical bus (11kv on Vista ships) which is powered by the main diesel generator sets in the engine room. The emergency generator on Vista class ships (Zuiderdam, Arcadia, etc) can only power the 690V emergency bus and can produce around 1.2MW, and I would place a bet that the same is true on the Costa Concordia. Even if it could be rigged up to power the 11kv bus, it would probably trip if any of the bow thrusters were turned on. So I don't believe the thrusters were used to bring Costa Concordia to the island - I think it was the wind and current that drove her onto the rocks.

 

VP

 

VP, I think you are correct. Even if bow thrusters could have been used, they wouldn't have been able to reverse the direction the ship was already traveling without main propulsion. It appears that Concordia was without power and was rotated around her axis of drag (props and rudder) 180 degrees and pushed sideways onto shore by the wind.

 

Interesting discussion here:

http://www.shipsnostalgia.com/showthread.php?t=42791&page=40

[Davyjonesrugrat]

It is my view that future regulations will ban muster stations in enclosed spaces such as lounges, theatres etc.

This is very unlikely, considering that mustering in these locations have taken place since time in memorial. One of the reasons might be due to the weather ondeck, it might just be blowing a hooley !!!!!

 

rgds

:)

[Vampire Parrot]

Grandprix said

Sorry, but the only person truly responsible for your safety is yourself. Most ships are staffed by uneducated modern day slaves. No more than 20 officers have the experience to handle the masses during an emergency.

 

Have you ever actually talked to the staff on a ship? Certainly on the ships I've sailed on, many of the staff you assume are "uneducated" are highly educated. Some of the chefs, waiters and stewards I've spoken to have degrees in hotel management, catering, travel and tourism, etc. I've met several crew members working as waiters who have science degrees, and are at sea because they are saving up to finance a Ph.D.

 

VP

[confarotta]

This class of ship along with alot of Carnival's ships has the muster stations in a long enclosed outside "hallway" This area is boxed in with no access to the front of the ship or back of the ship. It also is inclosed on one side with windows to the public rooms and the steel bulk head on the other. The bulk heads have openings in them that allow access to the life boats. I would imagine that water started to enter the area thru these opening as the ship listed and the passengers left had no means of exit except the lobby in the back of the ship. This lobby leads to the back resturant and the cigar bar. The internet cafe is off the cigar bar and has no other exit. I assume that the stairs in this lobby are under water as they are half way between the port and starboard side of the ship. This would leave no were to go especially with the list because it would be difficult to climb thru the lobby to the port musterstation.

[islandlittleleague]

A muster station is not a place where you abandon ship, it is a place to gather in an emergency and receive instructions from a crew member, you may muster and never have to abandon ship, such as the Princess Fire, and you may be at you muster station for hours and then never get off the ship.

 

IMHO a muster station in a lounge or dining room, that has exits to the embarkation deck, is the better option. This leaves the embarkation deck clear for the crew to ready the lifeboats, if they are going to be needed, without passenger interuption. You also don't know, until it happens, which lifeboat you will be assigned to, the order to abandonship will be done by muster station, and that order, along with the lifeboat you are assigned to, will be dictated by the nature and location of the emergency situation, and should be communicated to the crew by the captain once he gives the AS order

 

 

 

I have been on 7 cruises and when Carnival used to have their drills on the deck, it was hot, everyone complaining, crying babies and you could not hear or see the person giving instructions and now that they are inside and people are comfortable they can see the instructions and pay more attention than outside where everybody is just waiting for it to be over.

[Ruste]

May I just say that:

 

(1) the staff is required to do safety drills

 

(2) a drill is much different than a real-life emergency

 

before we give too much credit to the crew. From the first hand accounts, it was chaos, there were no orders, and crew were saving themselves, from the captain on down.

 

Miss Fig lets just put this into context, I was responding to a post by Grandprix who called the crew 'modern day slaves' which I consider is totally unexceptable. I am assuming from your post that you like most of us weren't on the ship and are making an opinion based on the information you read/hear. You personally have no idea how the crew reacted. What some of us are asking is that you stop offering opinions on how much help the crew, not the officers, gave until they have a chance to tell their side of the story. FYI my daughter is an entertainer and my SIL was a CD and both have been called to muster stations. I appreciate a drill is different than real life emergency and so is the reality of having to save someone elses life before your own. I'm also sure that none of the crews at sea have ever practised a drill where the captain leaves the ship. If they had the crew on Concordia would have known what to do next. Maybe this will become part of the drill from now on.

[VioletHorse]

I have been on 7 cruises and when Carnival used to have their drills on the deck, it was hot, everyone complaining, crying babies and you could not hear or see the person giving instructions and now that they are inside and people are comfortable they can see the instructions and pay more attention than outside where everybody is just waiting for it to be over.

 

We were on the Carnival Miracle in May 2011, and the safety drill was held on deck.