Norovirus on the Black Watch at the moment

[L3GWG]

For info the Black Watch has norovirus on it at the moment. My mother went on this ship a week past Saturday when it arrived into to Scotland at the end of its previous itinerary after reporting 130 people affected with the virus. FO stated it would be sanitized and no further risk. My mother has the virus and has been quarantined as with a press reported 72 others as of yesterday. Will be interesting to find out what form of recompense is offered as although they informed all that the virus was on board previous to this cruise departing there was no mention of letting people cancel.

 

 

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[Popsey Wopsey]

Old ships are like old hospitals, virus lives on in the walls etc..:eek:

[Mark_T]

Obviously good cleaning after an outbreak is vital, but it is also probable that each new batch of cruisers bring at least a few people with the virus on-board especially as we get further into the winter months.

 

Maintaining good personal hygiene and a defensive approach to things like the serving utensils on buffet stations remains the best approach I think.

[L3GWG]

Mark_T,

 

Fully agree that people need to be careful and as an ex nurse and frequent cruiser that my Mother has been as careful as is humanly possible.

Purpose of this thread is to make people aware who are going on Black watch when it returns this week ( Wednesday ) that there has been another very high percentage of customers with the virus. This ship has an elderly clientele on the whole and an extra couple of hrs for cleaning as is what happened on the last turn around is not adequate and customers should be given the opportunity to have a full refund cancelation offer.

 

 

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[Mark_T]

Purpose of this thread is to make people aware who are going on Black watch when it returns this week ( Wednesday ) that there has been another very high percentage of customers with the virus.

 

Certainly good to let people know and we will follow this with some personal interest as we will be on Black Watch in late November, but 72 out of over 1000 crew and passengers is not a 'very high percentage', and I hope it does not escalate to the point where it really is.

 

I hope your mother recovers quickly and obviously any occurrences of this problem are both distressing and in some cases dangerous given the age and other ailments that may be present for some passengers.

 

I do feel though that there is an over dependence on the hand-sanitizers that are provided and a general misguided belief that once inside the restaurants that all is 'safe'.

 

Many people who are otherwise extremely cautious tend to forget the risk associated with using the buffet areas on the ship as the utensils provided to serve yourself with are unfortunately a very easy way to pick up contamination on your skin right before you go eat your afternoon scone or lunchtime bread roll using your fingers, so I'd suggest avoiding these areas or at least avoid any direct contact with the serving utensils.

 

I'd also caution against using the restrooms outside your own cabin as many people will wash their hands then open the door forgetting that the door handle may have been contaminated by a previous less sanitary visitor.

 

Of course, once you start to worry, you have to consider that those cleaning your cabin may also spread the problem from other cabins they have visited but I guess you have to draw the line somewhere or you'd spend more time worrying than enjoying the cruise.

 

Let's hope the current problems are eliminated before the next cruise and that nobody brings the problem with them to start the cycle over again ...

[tring]

Mark said-

 

'72 out of over 1000 crew and passengers is not a 'very high percentage', and I hope it does not escalate to the point where it really is'.

I would like to know what he and, more to the point, other people consider a high percentage. Even a member of Fred Olsen's senior staff has said in the past that Phillipinos are mostly immune to it anyway, so that 72 is about 10 per cent of the passengers. Hence someone going onboard has a 1 in 10 chance of becoming ill. NOT a risk I would like to take!!

Edited September 30, 2013 by tring

[Mark_T]

I would like to know what he and, more to the point, other people consider a high percentage.

 

I regard any outbreak however small as regrettable, but you can't call even 10% a 'very high percentage'.

 

Personally we would sail without concern knowing that sort of level had been on a previous cruise.

 

The chances are not really 1 in 10, for us at least, as I already explained, we modify our behavior to take account of those who act in ways that tend to spread what could have been a localized problem to a wider audience.

 

Both Fred Olsen and the passengers have a role to play in limiting the transfer of problems from one cruise to another and limiting the number of those affected if there is an outbreak.

 

If both do as they should then the problem can be contained, if either fail in some way then we will see larger numbers of people affected.

[L3GWG]

72 by day 7 of the cruise would realistically grow by the end of day 12 and awaiting that answer. If this was a hospital then the ward would be closed until a full decontamination had been done not arrive in port at 8 and let new guest on at 3.

This is without a doubt a high percentage ! And believe me my Mother being of the old school nurses knows how to keep viruses away from herself if at all possible.

 

 

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[tring]

I have also been ill on cruise ship and I am well trained in micro biological work as well as having some nursing experience from my early working years. I am quite capably of doing all I can to 'minimise' infection.

 

Fred Olsen try to give people the impression that they cannot be held responsible, but if they notify people about the virus onboard and do not give an option to cancel with full refund, then individuals are quite at liberty to sue Fred Olsen should they be affected either as a sufferer or if their holiday is impacted badly by the presence of the virus onboard (serious lack of facilities etc.)

 

The American cruise lines will usually give the option to cancel because if people go onboard after being offered a chance to cancel, then they will not be able to claim, as they are deemed to have taken that risk of their own accord. It is a great shame that more British customers do not make a claim when affected, which is probably the only way that Fred Olsen will start to act responsibly.

 

It can be difficult to follow a claim through as an individual, considering data which would need to be obtained. However, if there is an ongoing problem over a number of cruises that the cruise line does not solve, then the most sucessful way of dealing with a claim is to contact a law company who are interested in taking a class action on behalf of a number people who have been affected.

 

A prominent company who deal with that sort of claim against holiday companies and cruise lines is 'Irwin Mitchell' who can be searched online. They are already collecting information for group claims against Fred Olsen. A general search may bring up other companies interested in the same, I have no connection with that specific company, but they are fairly well known in their field. Contacting them to ask advice about a particular experience and if they are interested in representing an individual will loose nothing.

[L3GWG]

Tring, thanks for the response and advice. I suspect my Mother will not want to persue any action as is her way but what I wanted to do was highlight the ongoing situation with this ship for people going forward

 

 

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[Mark_T]

I don't imagine this is a topic where we are ever going to reach a consensus and I would be genuinely interested in the outcome of a legal case on this matter so do keep us updated if you ever take it that far or hear of those who do.

 

If Fred Olsen can be shown to be failing in the standard of cleaning and precautions they take, then they should of course be held responsible for that failing.

 

If their guilt merely extends to allowing potential carriers of the virus to board at the beginning of each cruise then they have rather less to answer for.

[Sewso]

I was on the Black Watch cruise prior to the one L3GWG's mother is on. During our cruise there was no self service at buffets or self service coffee and until the last couple of days the public toilets were all closed.

[tring]

One cruise affected by norvirus may not be legally challengable, but when it is ongoing that is another matter. There are two reviews of Black Watch on this site which, with the list of cruises in the brochure, make it obvious that the current cruise is the 4th affected by the virus - this goes back to August. Other cruiselines do have problems with norovirus (sometimes badly) but they do not become ongoing in the same way as they take the ship(s) out of service if necessary to deal with it.

 

Searching 'Fred Olsen + nororvirus' will bring up some interesting sites, including a thread on the cruise section of a well known holiday review site entitled 'Norovirus on Fred Olsen's Boudicca' which covers an ongoing infection on Boudicca which lasted for about 5 months earlier this year and the last few pages refer to the current situation on Black Watch as someone added to that thread. I know 'Irwin Mitchell' are getting a case together regarding the Boudicca infection and they will probably be interested in the current Black Watch situation, if only sufficient people will contact them. They would not be interested in taking cases if they were not confident of success as they would not get paid, so they must have confidence.

 

It is a shame the British public are so reluctant to claim or complain to an official body, such as Port Health section of the local authority after they disembark. Action can only be taken if a situation is known about. I definately do not believe in a general 'claims culture' for all matters, but in some instances it needs done.

 

Numbers affected are usually given as the number of people confined to cabins at any one time and the confinement is normally 2-3 days. Hence the average number of people affected would need to be multiplied by the '2-3 day timespells' in a cruise. An average 14 night cruise would contain 5-6 such timespells, so the number of people infected MAY be (72 x 5.5 = 396). A small number? Well each can make their own asessment of that. Some people may not be concerned and that is their perogative, but others may feel differently.

[gaelsail]

Having observed the cleaning and preventative measures taken on Black Watch during one of the outbreaks, I would not dream of taking action against them.

 

If certain passengers had followed the VERY simple instructions given, the outbreak would have been unlikely to spread.

 

I'd also be interested in the levels of infection in the places the cruises were departing from.

[tring]

Perhaps you should read some stories from past passengers published elsewhere regarding staff actions, but that is partly to do with overwork as much as staff training I suspect - even medical teams were going down like flies - are you accusing them of lack of hygeine. There is a lot you would not see as a sufferer would see when the cabins are supposedly cleaned.

 

Fred staff tried to pull that one about the local community last year when there was an outbreak on Boudicca which lasted for 5 months of consecutive cruises. I know a number of teachers working in schools over a wide area from one port used and they had no kids suffering from anything like that and surely that is where the infection will be.

 

Strange how other cruises are not affected the same and the population is no different!!!!!

[Mark_T]

L3GWG - I hope your Mother is safely home now and recovered from her illness.

 

Given the ship has had a night free of passengers and an change of port, it will be useful to see if there are problems on the 16 day cruise departing from Dover today ...

[Ashdale]

As the "Mother" referred to in this topic, my feelings are. 1) F.O. Did all in their power to contain the problem. When I succumbed to fairly violent d&v, the "special" brigade of cleaners, the only people allowed access to my cabin, were still smiling in adversity! All ships' co. eg singers, dancers, orchestra etc had to man the buffets on top of their normal duties. 2). Some passengers still managed to ignore the sanitisation procedures - 1 even went behind the buffet and helped himself, despite the barriers! 3). I am not of the compensation era but am concerned at no realistic offer towards future cruise is as yet forthcoming, 50% off each night you spent in your cabin is mentioned. Under the Sale of Goods Act, they did not keep their end of the bargain, in my view, considering there was no access to sauna, steam room, DVDs, library barely useable etc etc. 4). Will still consider booking again (a glutton for punishment!)

[Mark_T]

Great to hear you are obviously in good spirits despite the adversity.

 

I hope Fred do something to help you enjoy a future cruise more fully.

[dsrdsrdsr]

Numbers affected are usually given as the number of people confined to cabins at any one time and the confinement is normally 2-3 days. Hence the average number of people affected would need to be multiplied by the '2-3 day timespells' in a cruise. An average 14 night cruise would contain 5-6 such timespells, so the number of people infected MAY be (72 x 5.5 = 396). A small number? Well each can make their own asessment of that. Some people may not be concerned and that is their perogative, but others may feel differently.

Do you have any evidence? All you've proved in that paragraph is that if you multiply a small number by 5.5, you get a bigger number. You can't invent 324 cases of norovirus and then blame Fred Olsen for not preventing them

Edited October 3, 2013 by dsrdsrdsr

[dancourt]

I think everyone should do what they feel is right if they become affected by the norovirus whilst on a cruise.

 

I am not comfortable with people inciting others to sue, it should be down to the individual to make that choice.

 

It is not just a problem with Fred Olsen, I hear that the Marco Polo is undergoing a deep cleanse at this very moment and there are other cruise lines too, that are affected.

 

Susan

[L3GWG]

As the OP for this thread thanks to all for the feedback and thoughts. As stated this thread was only to make people aware of the situation with this ship and as feared she returned yesterday with 122 new cases. My Mum is now home from that cruise and recovering nicely.

I fully appreciate that my mother does not want to enter into litigation against this company and that is fine and fully respect that.

This does not take away from the fact that this ship has a terrible record of illness on board caused by this virus recently. I fully believe on the cruise prior to my mothers that had 130 cases then the ship should have been put out of commission for at least 24-48hrs while a deep clean was undertaken not a couple of hrs extra cleaning and delay as is what happened and subsequently 122 caught it over the next 12 days.

It has transpired over the last 24 hrs that Boudicca also has a high number of passengers of her last cruise with this virus as well so this company is not looking to clever at the present time and should review there action on how to deal with these out breaks. It seems strange that the large new ships do not experience these outbreaks to the same extent. Myself and wife have done 10plus NCL and never seen or heard of 1 person.

As stated agree with Mum not to persue through litigation is right for her but also see the need for action to be taken to wake this company up and if they loose money then so be it

 

 

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[berkshireboy]

As the OP for this thread thanks to all for the feedback and thoughts. As stated this thread was only to make people aware of the situation with this ship and as feared she returned yesterday with 122 new cases. My Mum is now home from that cruise and recovering nicely.

I fully appreciate that my mother does not want to enter into litigation against this company and that is fine and fully respect that.

This does not take away from the fact that this ship has a terrible record of illness on board caused by this virus recently. I fully believe on the cruise prior to my mothers that had 130 cases then the ship should have been put out of commission for at least 24-48hrs while a deep clean was undertaken not a couple of hrs extra cleaning and delay as is what happened and subsequently 122 caught it over the next 12 days.

It has transpired over the last 24 hrs that Boudicca also has a high number of passengers of her last cruise with this virus as well so this company is not looking to clever at the present time and should review there action on how to deal with these out breaks. It seems strange that the large new ships do not experience these outbreaks to the same extent. Myself and wife have done 10plus NCL and never seen or heard of 1 person.

As stated agree with Mum not to persue through litigation is right for her but also see the need for action to be taken to wake this company up and if they loose money then so be it

 

 

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I understand that there are 325 cases of norovirus on the Celebrity Summit at the moment. No ships are immune, however big or new they are.

 

Sadly, Fred Olsen seems to get more publicity about the virus than other companies.

 

berkshireboy

[L3GWG]

Thanks for that info. Having looked it up I also note that celebrity are also offering any guest booked for the forth coming Saturday cruise on the ship a rescheduled cruise if they feel uncomfortable going on this one, something not offer by Fred O.

 

 

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[tring]

The people I really feel sorry for is the staff, who as we all know are brilliant lovely people and are very busy at the best of times. I do wonder what training entertainment staff have in food handling though, as any jobs on land seem to require a food handling certificate.

 

Our situation in dealing with consumer issues is relatively easy as I have a very close relative who has spent a career working in Trading Standards. Unfortunately people do not always have rights that they think they do,(sale of goods act has no relevance to holidays for instance), and companies like Fred Olsen will point to their terms and conditions which sometimes would be challengeable because they cannot overide the law, (I am thinking of one particular point in Fred's terms and conditions which was pointed out by one of their staff when we were booked on an an affected ship earlier this year). Of course consumer advice, (run by Trading Standards), is a free service which can be used by anyone wanting advice on their rights and how to go about claiming them - the correct wording always helps. Details can be found at

 

www.adviceguide.org.uk/england/consumer_e.htm

 

Unfortunately any rights to cancel a cruise, or claim after a bad experience comes under civil law, so prosecutions cannot be taken by Trading Standards, but people can get advice on how to deal with a situation - although like all public services staff are short on the ground these days.

 

For reference my interest stems from last June when we were booked on Boudicca, which had apparently been badly affected since January and with various reports online and the help of the brochure I could not see one cruise that was not affected and they usually involved very large numbers considering the size of the ship. The same seemed to be the case for the previous winter. Yes, all ships have problems with norvirus (if it is norovirus) at times, but after one affected cruise and perhaps a bit of a carry over to the next they seem to get rid of any widescale infection. How it is dealt with is a matter for the cruise company, but it needs to work.

 

To get back to my situation. I had an important medical investigation booked for just after that cruise so did especially not want to risk infection. FredO had offered to refund anyone if they had a pre existing medical condition and could get a doctor's note, but that did not apply to me. Eventually we were given a future cruise voucher, (to the value we had paid), to be used within 15 months. This seemed to be forthcoming to other people if they really fought the situation, but it was not easy to obtain. When I can again get Travel insurance (next Jan) we may, or may not, use it. There is not a lot of value involved, but I am genuinely saddened by FredO's lack of care to their staff and passengers.

[tring]

For people about to travel, be aware that the alcohol hand gels used onboard are not effective against virus particals and are only anti bacterial. A spray that will destroy virions is obtainable and there have been postings detailing suppliers of that on the Boudicca norovirus thread running concurrent to this thread.

 

The link I posted on the previous thread goes straight to citizens advice who now run the initial advice service nationally (including Scotland). You should be able to search through it, or perhaps google consumer advice. It is worth making sure you use the right wording when writing to a company.

Edited October 4, 2013 by tring