Saga Rose Greenland Voyager August 2007

[Saga Ruby]

Ruby, that was what happened on Lusitania in 1915. The lifeboats in their davits rested on top of collapsible boats on the decks. When the ship was sinking, and after some of the lifeboats were launched, many of the collapsible boats could not be used because these had been painted so often that they stuck to the deck. Donald.

 

Very interesting. I keep coming back to Stella Solaris in 1979, the first cruise ship to sail out of Galveston, and under current SOLAS rules at the time. I can't understand how the davits could be painted shut and pass USCGS inspection. Maybe the rules have changed?

 

But . . . skipping on to Costa Concordia, we now know that El Capitano probably caused the 160' tear in his ship's hull. His enthusiasm for showing off his command yields a probable cause of showing off this pretty ship to watchers onshore. To me, it is amazing to see the video and pix of a huge rock embedded in the broken hull. Can-openered. And e-diagrams of the usual path of the ship versus the actual path that the ship veered toward the island of Giglio speaks volumes.

 

So my question to those of you who have been on a Bridge in recent years (I have not) - is there a helmsman at the controls, or look-outs? Would a helmsman run a ship onto rocks at the order of the Master? What do y'all see when you visit a Bridge? What instruments and what personnel?

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

Ruby, the latest story is that the ship's chief maitre d's 82-year-old father lives on that island, so the Captain obliged by steering the ship close to give a toot of the horn to the gentleman.

 

I wonder how large is that rock embedded in the hull of Costa Concordia? Charts will have to be changed to reflect a drop of 20 feet or so where the rock used to be. It is interesting that such a large rock was easily snapped off the reef.

 

I have been on the bridge of Mercury several times. There are usually at least three staff on duty there, including the Captain or an officer in charge. No helmsman at a wheel - just about everything is computerized. Even though there is a radar screen showing what the radar has detected, the other two men are carefully scanning the view forward through the bridge windows, alert to anything that might have escaped the radar's notice, even if there are no ships visible anywhere.

 

Donald.

[Host Sharon]

Very interesting. I keep coming back to Stella Solaris in 1979, the first cruise ship to sail out of Galveston, and under current SOLAS rules at the time. I can't understand how the davits could be painted shut and pass USCGS inspection. Maybe the rules have changed?

 

But . . . skipping on to Costa Concordia, we now know that El Capitano probably caused the 160' tear in his ship's hull. His enthusiasm for showing off his command yields a probable cause of showing off this pretty ship to watchers onshore. To me, it is amazing to see the video and pix of a huge rock embedded in the broken hull. Can-openered. And e-diagrams of the usual path of the ship versus the actual path that the ship veered toward the island of Giglio speaks volumes.

 

So my question to those of you who have been on a Bridge in recent years (I have not) - is there a helmsman at the controls, or look-outs? Would a helmsman run a ship onto rocks at the order of the Master? What do y'all see when you visit a Bridge? What instruments and what personnel?

 

Ruby

 

As I said |Ruby - there is always a helmsman and two lookouts, plus two officers. There is a huge array of equipment from radar and Sonar to GPS and electronic charts (they also carry a full set of paper charts in case of failure). Of course I can only say this for P&O, but I assume it is fairly standard. additional, when entering and leaving port and WHEN SAILING THROUGH NARROW CHANNELS the captain and his deputy are on the bridge.

 

The bridge below is Artania, while the ship is in port. I have only once been on a ship's bridge while at at sea, and also the QM2 has a bridge viewing area whilst at sea, and there seem to be around five or so people at any one time.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2012 by Host Sharon

[Kapricorn]

What are the chances of cruise lines taking notice of the Costa Concordia disaster, waking up and deciding that mega-apartment barges are more of a liability rather than asset?

 

I feel sorry for the 5 elderly passengers found drowned in their life jackets in the evacuation assembly area. Obviously the staff was in a panic mode despite their weekly drills, and forgot all about these people after they had led the others to the lifeboats. The sad thing is that these five people did what they were supposed to do - they went to their cabins, got their life jackets and went to the assembly stations.

 

Costa is expecting a $90 million-loss situation from the disaster. Gee, just wait until the American survivors get home and consult their lawyers, and the $90 million will look like pocket money ... but in this case I certainly also would have gone to my lawyer. Such needless wanton conduct on the part of the Captain!

 

Donald.

[Saga Ruby]

The sad thing is that these five people did what they were supposed to do - they went to their cabins, got their life jackets and went to the assembly stations.

 

I agree about the pax who believed that the Captain, Bridge staff, and crew were "in charge" and obeyed the tannoy instructions - then paid for it with their lives. As I have said before, in an onboard emergency, I will watch the situation and make my own decisions, depending on the crew organization and attitudes. I am so sad for the couple from Minnesota who went down with the ship as newbies who followed instructions to return to their cabin. My emotions range from anger to sadness for all the passengers who went on this cruise and lost their lives.

 

Costa is expecting a $90 million-loss situation from the disaster. Gee, just wait until the American survivors get home and consult their lawyers, and the $90 million will look like pocket money ... but in this case I certainly also would have gone to my lawyer. Such needless wanton conduct on the part of the Captain! Donald.

 

I think that lawsuits will be limited to the country of registry which puts a whole different slant on any legal proceedings. As you know, we have now heard from a "hostess" onboard the ship who is the sole defender of the Captain's actions. It's always nice to hear from the Captain's girlfriend.

 

Editorial comment - I am quite surprised at the universal interest in this shipboard disaster. Many people are asking for my comments; many people are closely following the media coverage. On this thread, we are all experienced cruisers - are you getting questions from others about your take on this maritime catastrophe?

 

Ruby

[Host Sharon]

Yes Ruby - the first thing I was asked when back at work on the Monday following the tragedy was for my take on it and had it put me off. It hasn't of course,, although I would never choose to sail on a mega barge in the first place, and there are some lines I wouldn't go near, but that aside, it is indeed strange how we have all become "experts". I suppose what has made it worse in some respects is the forthcoming anniversary of the Titanic foundering so many non-cruise people may have picked up on that already.

[Kapricorn]

Ruby, I would do the same as you during a shipboard emergency. No way would I stay meekly in an assembly area, waiting to be told what to do, while the ship listed heavily and the side windows dipped under the water line.

 

The "hostess" had worked on the previous cruises and was taking this cruise on her own. Nice Captain, being friendly and taking her to dinner.

 

So far only one friend has commented to me about this disaster.

 

This morning's Canadian national newspaper has a cartoon on its editorial page ... "The Captain was non-brave" and showed him, wearing a life jacket and holding an oar, falling down the side into an inflatable raft and yelling, "Oopsy-daisy." He had claimed that during the evacuation he tripped and fell into the lifeboat, and was "stuck" in that boat for an hour before it was lowered. Yeah, right ...

 

Donald.

[Host Sharon]

 

This morning's Canadian national newspaper has a cartoon on its editorial page ... "The Captain was non-brave" and showed him, wearing a life jacket and holding an oar, falling down the side into an inflatable raft and yelling, "Oopsy-daisy." He had claimed that during the evacuation he tripped and fell into the lifeboat, and was "stuck" in that boat for an hour before it was lowered. Yeah, right ...

 

Donald.

 

Funny - according to our papers he said the ship listed and he was catapulted (from an enclosed bridge ?!) into the lifeboat, together with his first and second officers as well!

 

I also have to say that as soon as that bang was heard and the ship listed I think I would be in my cabin grabbing lifejacket and up on deck somewhere, but who knows what one would really do until forced into that situation!

Edited January 22, 2012 by Host Sharon

[Saga Ruby]

Sharon - the UK papers are all over the disaster of Concordia, more so than the US papers. I read an excellent overview in The Guardian, then another one in The Sun.

 

Can you recommend a reliable newspaper that I can read online? So many of the UK papers are more shout than fact.

 

My daughter made a good comment about the disaster. If you're a passenger on a cruise ship and it suddenly shudders and stops, it didn't hit a speed bump in the Med and it's time to start paying attention to the situation. My heart goes out to all those pax who believed the lies being told from the Bridge.

 

Ruby

[Host Sharon]

Ruby - the Guardian and the Daily Telegraph are probably as reliable as any, and since they are on opposite political sides, the two together should be fairly balanced !

 

I suppose the trouble is that in normal respects you DO believe most of what the Captain says. Not any more of course!

Edited January 22, 2012 by Host Sharon

[Saga Ruby]

I have been reading information about Costa Concordia - her normal itineraries, level of hotel service, etc. It seems that the ship holds (held) roughly 3,700 pax while the total number of people on the ship at the time of the disaster was about 4,200. Which means that only 500 hotel and bridge staff were onboard in a given 7-day cruise.

 

When I did the math about the crew-to-pax ratio, I was quite surprised at the low level of hotel staff. Back in the day, after Royal Viking left the seas, I learned to watch crew ratios to indicate service levels. Do y'all think that the ratio on Concordia was a bit low? And does the crew ratio play a part in choosing your personal cruises?

 

Digression - I wish I wish I wish I could see the current display of aurora borealis. When I watched the Southern Cross sink over the horizon outside of Oz, it was a personal thrill. I've been to Far North so many times in the endless summer lights which wash any light display out of the sky. Have y'all seen these lights? They are the last on my bucket list and I have small hope of seeing this exciting display in the future. I am unwilling to go to Far North in zero-degree weather so . . . .

 

Ruby

[Kapricorn]

All of the news reports mentioned 3,200 passengers and 1,000 crew aboard Costa Concordia when she hit the rock. I think this ratio is about standard for the mega barges.

 

I saw aurora borealis only once, when I was outside my home in Montreal one winter night. It was a spectacular display, with undulating "curtains" and shimmering lights. Forty decades later I have yet to see another one, not even on one of my cruises to Alaska.

 

Donald.

[Host Sharon]

They are still on my bucket list too, although we have had wonderful displays over the UK in the last week, they are much further north from me :( I live in hope though.

 

Berlitz lists the pax/crew ratio of Concordia as 2.7 (lower berths - 3000) and 3.4 (all berths - 3800).

 

That is roughly the same as Independence of the Seas but lower than Grand Princess. QM2 which is a much larger ship but fewer passengers is 2 and 2.4.

[MMDown Under]

i flew to sydney a week in melbourne and a week on sydney plus the cruise to nowhere.

dave

 

I enjoyed your review of your mini cruise to nowhere, Seabourndt. Pity you didn't have enough time to make more friends.

 

Would have been nice to catch up with friends in Melbourne and Sydney.

[Saga Ruby]

We all know that cruise refunds are tightly controlled by cruise lines and, in most cases, that business policy is understandable. Above and beyond the joys of a cruise, money must be made by cruise lines’ shareholders to keep ships afloat.

 

Christopher Elliott writes the “Travel Troubleshooter” for National Geographic Society. His column appears each Sunday in the Dallas Morning News. Today, he makes some interesting points about reparations for passengers on Costa Concordia and other maritime disasters:

 

Costa’s safety record in the past two years is regrettable. On Feb. 26, 2010, Costa Europa slammed into a pier in Sharm el-Sheikh during rough weather and 3 crew members were killed with an addition crew member injured. In October of the same year, Costa Classica collided with a Belgian cargo ship near China’s Yangtze River, injuring several passengers. And now Concordia.

 

Above and beyond this questionable safety record, Mr. Elliott points out that passengers have flimsy legal rights in case of disaster. In the case of Carnival, legal venues are limited to the U.S. District Court for the Southern District of Florida which makes most legal cases a costly federal suit.

 

But the most telling point of this article is that cruise line claims adjusters often send a series of letters to injured survivors asking for more information. The time required for these exchanges have the effect of running down the clock on any claims. Corporate headquarters for cruise lines appear to want to settle but, in fact, they are usually intent on paying the least they can under the law.

 

I’ve taken a look at maritime incidents on cruise ships for the past few years and the name “Carnival” turns up over and over. I’m sure none of us are surprised at this factoid because the booze cruises, the age of cruisers, and the mass quantity of cruisers sometimes makes for a witches’ brew onboard ship.

 

I don't know about y'all but I'll be packing an intensely-bright flashlight in the future.

 

Ruby

Edited January 29, 2012 by Saga Ruby

[Host Sharon]

Interesting points Ruby. I see six US pax have filed a claim for $292 million compensation! Whilst not wishing to underestimate the potential trauma caused I think that is a tad (!) over the top?

 

By the way - don't confuse Carnival Cruises (booze/party cruises etc) with Carnival Corporation which owns Costa, Carnival, Cunard, P&O, Hal, Princess, etc etc. I have always (so far) felt safe and cared for on Cunard and P&O and would happily sail HAL and Princess.

 

I imagine all will be revealed in due course. There is an hour TV programe on Chanel 4 tomorrow - a bit too soon I would have thought since much of what is known so far is "hearsay".

 

BTW Ruby - I always back a wind-up torch, but it is black - might take up your suggestion and stick a flourescent band round it!

Edited February 1, 2012 by Host Sharon

[RalphRackstraw]

Digression - I wish I wish I wish I could see the current display of aurora borealis. When I watched the Southern Cross sink over the horizon outside of Oz, it was a personal thrill. I've been to Far North so many times in the endless summer lights which wash any light display out of the sky. Have y'all seen these lights? They are the last on my bucket list and I have small hope of seeing this exciting display in the future. I am unwilling to go to Far North in zero-degree weather so . . . .

 

Ruby

I had the privilege of viewing the Northern Lights on an August night during a week-long wilderness canoe trip in the Boundary Waters Canoe Area --- it must have been around 1982. It appeared as shifting columns of ghostly white light spanning the sky.

 

The Boundary Waters (so called because they straddle the border between Minnesota and Ontario, north of Lake Superior) are a special, magical place, kept protected and pristine: no permanent buildings, no roads, no motorboats, only canoes and kayaks allowed, and aircraft are not allowed to fly over. The result is utter peace, with no noise but the cries of the loons, and lakes so clean you can drink out of them. With no light pollution, the sky is a glorious carpet of stars, with the Milky Way clearly discerned. One of my favorite things was to take a canoe out on a mirror-still lake after dark, then lie in the bottom of the canoe staring up at the stars. When you're relaxed enough, it feels like you're floating free in the Universe!

 

The Boundary Waters are also special to me as the place where I fell in love. I had picked up the habit of widerness canoeing while a medical student in Canada, and joined the American Youth Hostels Chicago chapter to pursue that. Diane was the chairperson of the canoeing section. We became acquainted over several weekend trips, but I was pretty shy. When we signed up for the Boundary Waters trip, she used the power of her office to place me in the group she was leading (no more than 8 canoes, 16 people allowed in each travelling/camping party). As group leader, she had to assign two people to each canoe; somehow I ended up in hers. The heavier person (the guy) always occupies the rear seat in a canoe, so for a full week she was always in my sight, framed by the Garden-of-Eden beauty of the wilderness, and we talked and talked; I sang her the canoeing songs of the French-Canadian voyageurs, and we sang together the songs of Gordon Lightfoot we both knew by heart. We've been together ever since! ;)

Edited February 1, 2012 by RalphRackstraw
spelling error

[Saga Ruby]

Ralph - you have the soul of a poet and to have found your Immortal Beloved in that natural beauty of a place sounds wonderfully romantic.

 

Your description of the silent, natural beauty of that area makes me want to pack up and visit there, to enjoy the blankets of stars visible in the night sky, to soak up the silence of beautiful nature. Although, true confessions, my version of enjoying nature is to pack up a $500,000 mobile home and find a plug on a tree somewhere. But seeing the Northern Lights in such a glorious locale - I'm envious.

 

I attended an expensive girls camp in the mountains of Tennessee at age 14 and part of our daily routine was to launch mahogany canoes and learn the different paddle strokes of push-to, and pull-back and the J stroke, my personal favourite. And kayak paddles fascinate me altho' my coordination nowadays is less than perfect. At that camp, as part of our training, we had to swamp those terribly heavy canoes then paddle them to shore. The trick was to dump out as much of the lake water as possible which ain't easy.

 

Thanks for the memories.

 

Ruby

[RalphRackstraw]

Thank you, Ruby, but the master poet of the Quetico-Superior country was Sigurd F. Olsen. I own and treasure most of his books. One of the best is The Singing Wilderness, 1956, and my favorite essay in that book is "The Way of a Canoe". Here are the first few lines:

The movement of a canoe is like a reed in the wind. Silence is part of it, and the sounds of lapping water, bird songs, and wind in the trees. It is part of the medium through which it floats, the sky, the water, the shores.

 

A man is part of his canoe and therefore part of all it knows. The instant he dips a paddle, he flows as it flows, the canoe yielding to his slightest touch, responsive to his every whim and thought. The paddle is an extension of his arm, as his arm is part of his body. Skiing down a good slope with the snow just right comes close to it, with the lightness of near-flight, the translating of even a whisper of a wish into swift action; there, too, is a sense of harmony and oneness with the earth. But to the canoeman there is nothing that compares with the joy he knows when a paddle is in his hand.

I'm sure that Sigurd Olsen's works are available for Kindle, and would afford any thoughtful reader much enjoyment. :)

[RalphRackstraw]

That's Sigurd OLSON, not OLSEN.

 

A little more of his essay:

If the waves are rolling and you are forced to make your way against them, there is the joy of battle, each comber an enemy to be thwarted, a problem in approach and defense. A day in the teeth of a gale --- dodging from island to island, fighting one's way along the lee shore of some wind-swept point, only to dash out again into the churning water and the full force of the wind, then to do it again and again --- is assurance that your sleep will be deep and your dreams profound.

 

Almost as great a challenge is running with the waves down some lake where the wind has a long unbroken sweep. Riding the rollers takes more than skill with a paddle; it takes an almost intuitive sense of the weight and size of them and a knowledge of how they will break behind you. A bad move may mean that a comber will wash the gunwales. A man must know not only his canoe and what it will do, but the meaning of the waves building up behind him. This is attack from the rear without a chance of looking back, a guessing at a power and lifting force that he cannot see. But what a fierce joy to be riding with a thousand white-maned horses racing with the wind down some wild waterway toward the blue horizons!

[Saga Ruby]

That's Sigurd OLSON, not OLSEN.A little more of his essay:

 

Well, harumph! No wonder I couldn't find Olsen on Kindle. And by the way, while I much admire your joy of solo kayaking, my idea of racing down a fierce waterway is on a 30,000 gt ship.

 

Sharon - I'm in a bit of a huff. The BBC states that Royal Ascot is banning fascinators from their races - only hats are to be worn. What's up wit' dat?

 

Marion - I heard the singer Adele say goodbye with the word "Tirah." Is that a common farewell in Oz and how do you spell it? When I'm toasting someone on a ship with my water glass (ohhhh noooo!), I say Cin-Cin, with the Italian pronunciation. Is this correct, Conte?

 

Ruby

[MMDown Under]

 

Sharon - I'm in a bit of a huff. The BBC states that Royal Ascot is banning fascinators from their races - only hats are to be worn. What's up wit' dat?

 

Marion - I heard the singer Adele say goodbye with the word "Tirah." Is that a common farewell in Oz and how do you spell it? When I'm toasting someone on a ship with my water glass (ohhhh noooo!), I say Cin-Cin, with the Italian pronunciation. Is this correct, Conte?

 

Ruby

 

Hats are big business at Royal Ascot, Ruby. You've got to love Royal Ascot - tradition at its best.

 

My daughter used to hire her hat for Royal Ascot for 40 pounds each year, until she bought a hat. Now I wasn't going to pay 40 pounds to hire a hat, when it came my turn to attend Royal Ascot. I bought my Royal Ascot hat at a posh consignment shop, which I found whilst walking along the Thames Path. The hat now sits neglected in its hat box - just a memory of an unforgettable day!

 

I am not familiar with Adele. Could she have been saying "ta-ta", colloquial for goodbye?

[Host Sharon]

Ruby - Fascinators are really for indoors, not outdoors as at Royal Ascot!

 

I expect Adele said Ta ra - a version of cheerio. You might find this website interesting - as they say - America and the UK are separated by a common language!

 

http://www.effingpot.com/slang.shtml

[RalphRackstraw]

Good Morrow, Discussants!

 

Let it be known that our good Lady Frances Rackstraw, alias "Mom", was born on 16 February 1922, and celebrates her 90th birthday today.

 

In our telephone conversation this morning, she sounded well and chipper. She said she is considering a trip to Europe to visit old friends, and has a yen to try a European river cruise: "It's only a few thousand dollars, and what am I saving it for? I don't want to die of boredom!" I heartily endorse this ambition and the adventurous spirit behind it! :D

[Kapricorn]

In our telephone conversation this morning, she sounded well and chipper. She said she is considering a trip to Europe to visit old friends, and has a yen to try a European river cruise: "It's only a few thousand dollars, and what am I saving it for? I don't want to die of boredom!" I heartily endorse this ambition and the adventurous spirit behind it! :D

 

That's the spirit! Good on your mother. With that attitude I am sure that she will thoroughly enjoy the European river cruise whenever she takes it.

 

Donald.