QV - under what flag?

I note that in the posting form Cruachan, he gives a hyperlink to pictures of the QV being fitted out in Italy. Have a look at: -(http://riversea.tugtalk.co.uk/distan...envictoria.htm

Under the second photograph it states: -

"QUEEN VICTORIA (IMO 9320556) 89500 gt - Italian flag (temporary, will be Bahamas)"

Does this mean that the vessel will be registered in the Bahamas and sail under their flag? Surely not! (Poor Samuel would turn in his grave!)

What flag do you think that the QV should sail under?

Regards,

David

QV will fly under the Union Jack. This same speculation happened when QM2 was being fitted out. Let's face it, it is not unusual for an amateur website owner to get things wrong.

According to my Cunard Rep the QV will be registered in Southampton and therefore, fly the British Flag once she is delivered to Cunard.

QV will fly under the Union Jack. This same speculation happened when QM2 was being fitted out. Let's face it, it is not unusual for an amateur website owner to get things wrong.

Victoria will be registered at Southampton. The name "Southampton" is already in metal letters on her stern, but is painted out and "Nassau" painted in white on the top - because the ship isn't owned by Cunard yet.

She will fly the Red Duster - unless the Master is in the RNR (as the last Commodore was) in which case she'll fly the Blue Duster. The Union Jack is not an indication of a registration, and is found at the prow, not the stern, as I understand - if it is to be flown anywhere. I can't say I can recall seeing it on a Cunarder.

Matthew

Agreeing with Matthew, QV, being the property of Cunard would most likely, IMHO,comply with this:

The Red Ensign undefaced is for the use of all other British merchant navy ships and private craft. The Red Ensign is the correct flag to be worn as courtesy flag by foreign private vessels in United Kingdom waters. Merchant vessels from British overseas territories and Crown dependencies are entitled to red ensigns defaced with the badge of their territory.

Matthew, humble apologies. I meant the Ensign. Either way, she will be British registered.

So long as we never see the Union Jack being flown upside down on QE2, that would be a very bad sign. :eek:

Yes, there is a right and a wrong way up for the Union Jack. :)

Correct:

Incorrect:

I hope I have that right!

Correct:

 

Incorrect:

 

 

I hope I have that right!

Yes that is correct :)

The Union Jack is not an indication of a registration, and is found at the prow, not the stern, as I understand - if it is to be flown anywhere. I can't say I can recall seeing it on a Cunarder.

 

Matthew

As I understand it, the Union Flag is properly called a "jack" only when flown on a staff at the bow of a vessel of the Royal Navy. That may be why you have never seen a "Union Jack" aboard a Cunard Ship (The one exception would occur with the presence of British Royalty aboard ship!):)

Thank you all for your prompt re-assurance - what a relief! (Had a nasty turn for a moment or two initially. I found it very hard to envisage the QV sailing under the Bahamian Flag.

So long as we never see the Union Jack being flown upside down on QE2, that would be a very bad sign.

This has actually happened. A cruise colleague of mine (who is a retired senior Government Officer), attended a function in the Queens Room on board QE2 some two years ago, where the Union Flag was displayed inverted. When he semi-jocularly enquired of one of the ships Officers "What distress is the vessel in?" he received the reply "What do you mean?" (Flying the Union Flag inverted is a sign that the vessel is in distress).

The orientation of the Union Flag was hastily corrected, but not before the cheeks of several of the Ships Officers has started to turn a rather distinct shade of crimson!

Regards,

David

QV will fly under the Union Jack. This same speculation happened when QM2 was being fitted out. Let's face it, it is not unusual for an amateur website owner to get things wrong.

when you say union jack, do you mean the "union flag" or the fictional person:)

As I understand it, the Union Flag is properly called a "jack" only when flown on a staff at the bow of a vessel of the Royal Navy. That may be why you have never seen a "Union Jack" aboard a Cunard Ship (The one exception would occur with the presence of British Royalty aboard ship!):)

What if the Master is in the RNR?

Matthew

The Red Ensign undefaced is for the use of all other British merchant navy ships and private craft. The Red Ensign is the correct flag to be worn as courtesy flag by foreign private vessels in United Kingdom waters. Merchant vessels from British overseas territories and Crown dependencies are entitled to red ensigns defaced with the badge of their territory.

Wikipedia is not quite accurate on this one.

"The Registry of Shipping, Bermuda has been in existence since 1789, as a part of the British Register of Ships, having Hamilton as its Port of Registry. It is a Category 1 (i.e. no restriction on size, type or age of the vessel), Red Ensign Group Register whose ships fly the undefaced United Kingdom Red Ensign. "

Source: Bermuda Register of shipping.

This explains why the P&O ships being re-registered in Hamilton, to allow on-board weddings, fly the Red Duster. It is something that I questioned after my last cruise on Arcadia.

However, as has been stated earlier, QV will be registered in Southampton (until Carnival decides otherwise).

David

What if the Master is in the RNR?

 

Matthew

Matthew, I cannot seem to locate anything about the Union Jack for a Master who is in the RNR, just this concerning the flying of the Blue Ensign....

 

All Blue Ensign warrants were cancelled in 1939 (see explanatory note) and the system re-introduced on 24 January 1947, with a qualifying crew of master plus six. Only 38 warrants were issued between then and January 1951, with 11 cancelled.

1951. Qualifying crew reduced to master plus four. Commodores on Active or Retired List of RNR or Commonwealth Naval Reserves were entitled to Blue Ensign in their own right.

1952. Qualifying crew reduced to master and two if the crew were mainly Asian. Applications accepted from Home Trade vessels and the Fishing Fleet.

1953. No applications from Home Trade or Fishing Fleet. Time-expired RNR ratings could be counted towards qualifying number of reservists in crews.

1958. RNR merged with Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve. RNR masters permitted to fly Blue Ensign if just one other officer was RNR.

1965. Captains RNR qualified to fly Blue Ensign in their own right. David Prothero, 31 August 2001

A little tedious to read . . . I would proffer that a civilian ship with an RNR Master would fly the Blue Ensign and not show the "Union Jack" as the ship was not a vessel of the Royal Navy.....

I would be interested to hear others interpretations or facts....Thanks!

Matthew, I cannot seem to locate anything about the Union Jack for a Master who is in the RNR, just this concerning the flying of the Blue Ensign....

A little tedious to read . . . I would proffer that a civilian ship with an RNR Master would fly the Blue Ensign and not show the "Union Jack" as the ship was not a vessel of the Royal Navy.....

I would be interested to hear others interpretations or facts....Thanks!

I was more thinking Blue Duster at the stern, and the Union Jack (if that is what it is) at the stem.

Wouldn't happen on Cunard, as they fly the house flag of course. Which may answer my question anyway.

The OP also asked where Victoria should be registered - Southampton of course. Goes without saying.

Matthew

I was more thinking Blue Duster at the stern, and the Union Jack (if that is what it is) at the stem.

 

Wouldn't happen on Cunard, as they fly the house flag of course. Which may answer my question anyway.

 

The OP also asked where Victoria should be registered - Southampton of course. Goes without saying.

 

Matthew

Matthew, you are spot on! Southampton Absolutely! :) The Blue Duster would be appropriate on the stern, but, house flag or not, I don't believe the "Queens" would qualify as Royal Naval vessels! :D

(I do wonder, however, if during the Falklands war the Cunard ships flew the Union Jack?)

The OP also asked where Victoria should be registered - Southampton of course. Goes without saying.

Of course the traditional port of registry for Cunard ships is Liverpool!

Thank you all for your prompt re-assurance - what a relief! (Had a nasty turn for a moment or two initially. I found it very hard to envisage the QV sailing under the Bahamian Flag.

 

 

 

This has actually happened. A cruise colleague of mine (who is a retired senior Government Officer), attended a function in the Queens Room on board QE2 some two years ago, where the Union Flag was displayed inverted. When he semi-jocularly enquired of one of the ships Officers "What distress is the vessel in?" he received the reply "What do you mean?" (Flying the Union Flag inverted is a sign that the vessel is in distress).

 

The orientation of the Union Flag was hastily corrected, but not before the cheeks of several of the Ships Officers has started to turn a rather distinct shade of crimson!

 

Regards,

David

An easier mistake to make than the US marines flying the Canadian flag upside down. But no more disrespectful.

Correct:

 

Incorrect:

 

 

I hope I have that right!

Call me "blonde", but what's the difference ?? :confused: :D

Vic,

You're blonde!

(look at the orientation of the red diagonal stripes in relation to their proximity to the edge of the white bands)

Now Pardon my ignorance, but can someone tell me what IS the significance of how close they are to each edge? The only symbolism I can see would be something blade-like or along the lines of blades rotating (all would be oriented towards the forward edge of the white diagonal if spinning counter-clockwise)

I'm sure I could easily look this up, and again, I apologize for my ignorance, but what is the significance?

Thank you,

(humbly)

Karie

Now Pardon my ignorance, but can someone tell me what IS the significance of how close they are to each edge? The only symbolism I can see would be something blade-like or along the lines of blades rotating (all would be oriented towards the forward edge of the white diagonal if spinning counter-clockwise)

Karie,

you're almost there!

The original design of the flag incorporated only the flags of England (the cross of St George) and Scotland (the Saltire or Cross of St Andrew). The two flags were merged symmetrically with the white background of the English flag being carried into the vertical and horizontal bars. The Irish flag (the Saltire of St Patrick) was added later and, for that reason, it was necessary, in accordance with the rules of Heraldry, to indicate that the original two flags had primacy. This was done for the English flag by allowing its white background to overlay the red St Patrick’s saltire (that is why there are gaps where the red Irish saltire passes "beneath" the white border of the cross of St George. Indicating the primacy of the Scottish Saltire was a little more difficult and it was necessary to invoke a rule of Heraldry known as "counterchange of saltires". This involved offsetting the Irish saltire on the Scottish one in a way that indicated that the Scottish saltire had primacy. This was achieved by designing the flag so that the broad white band of the Scottish saltire always lies on the "clockwise" side of the red saltire.

All of this has led to the asymmetry of the present flag and has provided countless British military officers down the centuries with another stick with which to batter their subordinates when they manage to hoist the damn thing the wrong way up (never managed to do it myself - but I know plenty of others who suffered because they managed to achieve it)

Jimmy

Wow!

Thanks Jimmy! History is fascinating, is it not?

I never even knew there were rules of heraldry!

cool!

thank you!

Karie,

who thinks a day in which she has learned something new is a day not wasted!