Concordia News: Please Post Here

[Emilija]

As highlighted by Sidari...".the human element and the human's reaction/action under stress is key in many accidents...not just aircraft or ship but with anything that depends on a human being in command."

 

 

You don't know who you are until something happens.....then you REACT and will be a hero or a coward

[Uniall]

1864 Admiral Farragut, USS Hartford: "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead."

 

 

2011 Captain Schittino, MS Costa Concordia: "Damn the coastline and shallows, full speed ahead."

 

 

.

[sidari]

Amazing that people call Schettino arrogant amongst other names but he has nothing on this guy or the people who tried to cover it up!

 

http://alt-f4.org/img/seaoflies.html

 

 

SB ... Last August i believe Concordia was within 230 metres of Giglio at its nearest point however i do not know the depth of water there nor its speed but i do believe that the Concordia and its Captain on that occasion got lucky.

[Max49]

"Max ... Until you have been in a life threatening position you cannot say how you will react, you will have in your mind how you think you will react and how you hope you will react but believe me until you have been that person you can never know."

 

How can you say that Sid when you don't know me? Sure, obviously I've never wrecked a cruise ship but I was in Vietnam and spent time with the infantry and Green Beret, I saw people wounded right in front of me and may have eventually died. They never came back. I've been small boats in the Gulf of Mexico in storms that had me saying Hail Marys, while I kept the bow of the boat into waves getting farther and farther away from FL and going towards Mexico. I've been scared shetless quite a few times; but that's irrelevant.

A Capt accepts that position and the responsibility. Just because he screwed up so bad that made himself incapable of action or even thinking straight should not even be a factor when finding fault. Maybe it would get him some mercy at sentencing if he assured the judge he would never work on a cruise ship if the job calls for responsibility because he now knows he can't handle that kind of stress.

Edited August 18, 2012 by Max49

[Vampire Parrot]

You don't know who you are until something happens.....then you REACT and will be a hero or a coward

 

I'm not sure it's so much being a hero or being a coward. It's more a case of realizing that for whatever reason, the shi...p has hit the fan and it's up to the person in command to do what they have the training and experience and aptitude to do keep everyone safe.

 

If they can't do what they have to then it's a question of either their training, experience or aptitude are lacking. The last is the hardest to quantify and it really is only when things go wrong that it can be tested.

 

Now on a ship, things will sometimes go wrong and events will hapen. It's the nature of being at sea. A good Captain will observe the reaction of his junior officers, whether they be a cadet, third officer,... up to Staff Captain. From that the Captain should be able to recommend whether the persons they are observing have what it takes to make the final step and to become the person who will at some point have the qualities required to take overall responsibility of a ship.

 

The evidence that is currently available shows that Captain Schettino made a very poor decision attempting to sail by the island at an unsafe distance for whatever reason, and then he froze after his ship was damaged. So the evidence suggests he's at fault. But more importantly for the rest of us who travel by ship, I would also expect that the selection procedure for Ship's Masters at Costa, and possibly in other/all cruise lines, to be examined.

 

VP

Edited August 18, 2012 by Vampire Parrot

[Max49]

I think a key aspect is this:

 

Would Schettino have acted differently had his decision to divert the route not caused the accident (I know, I know... IMO)?

 

We mentioned Capt. "Sully" Sullenberger. On the one hand, Sully represented a benchmark of ideal training and execution in a crisis. We more or less trust and, perhaps, expect any captain would behave the same in a similar situation.

 

But the Costa's situation was not similar at all. Sullenberger's crisis occurred due to circumstances entirely beyond his control. The Costa's crisis came about by the decision Schettino had made to divert the route and bow to Giglio.

 

Schettino recognized this. He stated he felt guilty. He called and told his boss he made a mess. It dawned on him rather quickly that his career, and life as he knew it, was over. I think it is why shock and disbelief settled in DURING the crisis, instead of afterward, clouding his focus on the situation at hand.

 

If he had he not diverted off course, but instead hit an unidentified object along the "traditional" route of the cruise and tore a whole in the side of the ship, would we would have seen a different Schettino in action?

 

I absolutely agree with you here, Stella.

I know from personal experience, nothing on the scale of the Concordia but none the less, it is much easier to stay cool and calm if you're trying correct a bad situation that you had no control of getting into versus a situation you got yourself into by doing some thing stupid.

IMO also, I believe you are correct, after the collision Schettino was completely consumed worrying about himself , his career , his life as he knew it just obliterated, he was incapacitated and certainly could not have helped any one else.

Maybe it was better that he just got out of the way.

As I said before, this may be good argument for him at sentencing if that ever comes.

[Uniall]

"Max ... Until you have been in a life threatening position you cannot say how you will react, you will have in your mind how you think you will react and how you hope you will react but believe me until you have been that person you can never know."

 

How can you say that Sid when you don't know me? Sure, obviously I've never wrecked a cruise ship but I was in Vietnam and spent time with the infantry and Green Beret, I saw people wounded right in front of me and may have eventually died. They never came back. I've been small boats in the Gulf of Mexico in storms that had me saying Hail Marys, while I kept the bow of the boat into waves getting farther and farther away from FL and going towards Mexico. I've been scared shetless quite a few times; but that's irrelevant.

A Capt accepts that position and the responsibility. Just because he screwed up so bad that made himself incapable of action or even thinking straight should not even be a factor when finding fault. Maybe it would get him some mercy at sentencing if he assured the judge he would never work on a cruise ship if the job calls for responsibility because he now knows he can't handle that kind of stress.

 

Max

Well said. The choice isn't between coward and hero, it's a choice between coward and just doing your job. That's why most, if not all, heroes don't brag because they know there were many others who did as much or more but it went unnoticed or celebrated. They will tell you, I was just doing my job.

 

John

[Max49]

I'm not sure it's so much being a hero or being a coward. It's more a case of realizing that for whatever reason, the shi...p has hit the fan and it's up to the person in command to do what they have the training and experience and aptitude to do keep everyone safe.

 

If they can't do what they have to then it's a question of either their training, experience or aptitude are lacking. The last is the hardest to quantify and it really is only when things go wrong that it can be tested.

 

Now on a ship, things will sometimes go wrong and events will hapen. It's the nature of being at sea. A good Captain will observe the reaction of his junior officers, whether they be a cadet, third officer,... up to Staff Captain. From that the Captain should be able to recommend whether the persons they are observing have what it takes to make the final step and to become the person who will at some point have the qualities required to take overall responsibility of a ship.

 

The evidence that is currently available shows that Captain Schettino made a very poor decision attempting to sail by the island at an unsafe distance for whatever reason, and then he froze after his ship was damaged. So the evidence suggests he's at fault. But more importantly for the rest of us who travel by ship, I would also expect that the selection procedure for Ship's Masters at Costa, and possibly in other/all cruise lines, to be examined.

 

VP

 

This where Costa may have to share some responsibility, especially since he has had another accident and maybe some other complaints against him

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2108790/Costa-Concordia-Captain-Francesco-Schettino-crashed-ANOTHER-cruise-ship.html

 

If other officers had previouly complained that he was excessively risky, and Costa did nothing, that'll look pretty bad.

IMO wrecking the ship was not as bad as what he did or did not do afterwards and obviously Costa had never seen that side of Schettino.

[Max49]

Do we know if Brozio (spell check again) or any of the other officers that were on the Concordia bridge that night are back to work for Costa in the same capacity that were in on Jan 13th ?

[cruiserfanfromct]

Another possibility Schettino bailed like a turbo-charged water rat could have been apathy instead of fear or cowardice -- he might have been thinking “screw this, my career is over, I'm outta here, take this job and shove it”. Instead of a filthy coward deserving of being tarred and feathered by the lynch mob, could he just have been an uncaring, disinterested, detached S.O.B.? Unleash the psychologists!

[cruiserfanfromct]

Do we know if Brozio (spell check again) or any of the other officers that were on the Concordia bridge that night are back to work for Costa in the same capacity that were in on Jan 13th ?

Don't know if it's accurate or not but I recall reading that Roberto Brosio and the other crew members are still working for Costa.

 

In the Daily Mail article, Domnica Cemortan stated her contract was extended after the accident but has subsequently ended. So only Schettino and Cemortan seem to be the only ones currently not on the Costa payroll.

[ikelmay]

 

Is it possible to fall into a lifeboat? on a ship listing heavily with the boat deck in or touching the sea and balancing on the handrail while helping someone to get into the lifeboat and either the ship or lifeboat moves from the other? anything is possible. Not saying that is what happened but it is possible.

 

Sid, I have to think you are really into playing the devil's advocate here...... !!

 

I know you are saying that it's a possibility that Captain Schettino fell into the lifeboat - it's also possible the moon is really made of green cheese too but I don't think it is.

 

If the dear captain had the misfortune to be taken from his command by gravity, then I think he could have also requested to be returned to his stricken ship, but I don't think that's a command he would ever have issued.

[Ken711]

Giglio News published a photo which appears to be the installation of a pole/piling being driven into the seabed during the stabilization work.

 

Edited August 19, 2012 by Ken711

[SomeBeach]

Ken, thanks for sharing the pix.

[Max49]

Don't know if it's accurate or not but I recall reading that Roberto Brosio and the other crew members are still working for Costa.

 

In the Daily Mail article, Domnica Cemortan stated her contract was extended after the accident but has subsequently ended. So only Schettino and Cemortan seem to be the only ones currently not on the Costa payroll.

 

If this is accurate, it doesn't sound like Costa needed to wait for the courts to decide who's fault it was, for them

Will we ever get to hear what the other officers from the bridge , that night have to say about it?

It's really a shame, he probably could have salvaged his career if he had just stayed and helped some passengers but as it is, seems his attorney has a tough road to hoe.

[sidari]

Max .... you misunderstood what i said regarding not knowing what it is like until you have been there, it was not aimed at you in particular but the public in general.

The story in the link is quite old now and as many know the damage the Daily Fail claim was little if anything despite them trying to make out that Atlantica hit the Aida ship... typical Daily Fail headline.

 

"If they can't do what they have to then it's a question of either their training, experience or aptitude are lacking. The last is the hardest to quantify and it really is only when things go wrong that it can be tested"

 

VP ... so what of those in WW1 who were killed as Cowards despite suffering shell shock who "could not do what they had to" ?

 

ikelmay ... My question was an open question to see what people thought because there are those who because the issue seems to them ridiculous could never happen, after all there is a video on youtube that clearly shows a White shirted crew member in the sea next to a lifeboat.

Edited August 19, 2012 by sidari

[Tonka's Skipper]

Great Pic KEN!

 

AKK

[sidari]

"Well said. The choice isn't between coward and hero, it's a choice between coward and just doing your job. That's why most, if not all, heroes don't brag because they know there were many others who did as much or more but it went unnoticed or celebrated. They will tell you, I was just doing my job"

 

So by this definition Sullenberger was just doing his job as a pilot that he was paid to do same as Firefighters, Police officers and Paramedics etc and therefore was not a hero but an ordinary guy doing his job!

 

And if he is a hero then those onboard the vincennes cannot be can they?

[Uniall]

"Well said. The choice isn't between coward and hero, it's a choice between coward and just doing your job. That's why most, if not all, heroes don't brag because they know there were many others who did as much or more but it went unnoticed or celebrated. They will tell you, I was just doing my job"

 

So by this definition Sullenberger was just doing his job as a pilot that he was paid to do same as Firefighters, Police officers and Paramedics etc and therefore was not a hero but an ordinary guy doing his job!

 

And if he is a hero then those onboard the vincennes cannot be can they?

 

Sullenberger himself reported that he was just doing his job.

 

Concordia's Capt. Coward didn't do his job. Instead, he sent the ship, crew and passengers into harms way for an ego trip of his own and then went on a hot date dinner; finishing off by abandoning his post, leaving passengers and crew to die, in order to save his own life.

 

As I've said before, I won't let you drag me into a debate involving anti American rhetoric. The USS Vincennes incident has nothing to do with Concordia.

Edited August 19, 2012 by Uniall

[CostaSmurfette]

 

As I've said before, I won't let you drag me into a debate involving anti American rhetoric. The USS Vincennes incident has nothing to do with Concordia.

 

There is NO rhetoric (anti US or otherwise).

 

Just two commanders who stuffed up royally...one greeted with disdain and a lynch mob and the other greeted by back patting, medals and applause.

 

Ignore the fact that Vincennes was a Naval vessel for a moment. If that ship had been any other type of ship and the actions of its commander led directly to the deaths of 290 people, one would naturally expect that commander to be hung, drawn and quartered for making mistakes in his judgement.

 

Why then, is a Naval commander NOT held accountable...doesn't make one iota of difference as to which Navy he belongs to...but why is he not to be held responsible and punished for making such a massive number of judgement errors that meant that 290 people died?

 

It is completely understandable that the shooting down of a civilian airliner by a Naval commander would be incredibly embarrassing and a complete diplomatic disaster...

 

You cannot blame people looking in from the outside and scratching heads when that same commander was given such a heroic welcome home after such an horrific and preventable incident.

 

Schettino and Rogers both made awful mistakes in judgement, Schettino and Rogers are both responsible for what their respective ship/crew are doing, Schettino and Rogers are both culpable for the disastrous & tragic effects of those errors of judgement....

 

Yet only Schettino faces any form of punishment whilst Rogers walked away with a pat on the back and a pension.

 

It has been said that cos the airliner belonged to Iran makes it less important...well if that was the case, I seriously doubt that world relations would be quite so bad as they are, I seriously doubt that PA103 would have been blown out of the sky a few months later.

 

All the Iranian's wanted was an open investigation, fair punishment for those ultimately responsible and a sincere apology by way of compensation towards the families of the 290 who died as a result of commander Roger's and his crew making fatal mistakes.

 

Just as those left behind from Concordia want an open investigation, fair punishment for those ultimately responsible and a sincere apology by way of compensation towards the families of the 32 who died as a result of captain Schettino and his crew making fatal mistakes.

 

Quite simple really...two well trained men in charge of two ultra modern ships who just got it all screwed up and killed people as a result.

[Uniall]

I think the last three posts create a "resonable suspicion" that Sidari has an alter ego and pseudonym which is used to differentiate between ranting and writting. :rolleyes:

[MorganMars]

I must admit, somewhat ashamedly, to being totally unaware of this incident, probably due to being involved in personal life tragedies at the time. It has been interesting, and rather enlightening, to read about this 24 years after the incident in that it provides a more historical perspective, which may give some indication of the ultimate outcome of the current Concordia investigations. Good ol' Wikipedia says:

In February 1996 the United States agreed to pay Iran US$131.8 million in settlement to discontinue a case brought by Iran in 1989 against the U.S. in the International Court of Justice relating to this incident,[27] together with other earlier claims before the Iran-United States Claims Tribunal.[4] US$61.8 million of the claim was in compensation for the 248 Iranians killed in the shoot-down ($300,000 per wage-earning victim, $150,000 per non-wage-earner). In total 290 civilians on board (including 38 non-Iranians and 66 children) were killed. It was not disclosed how the remaining $70 million of the settlement was apportioned, though it appears a close approximation of the value of a used A300 jet at the time. Further compensation was paid for the 38 non-Iranian deaths. The payment of compensation was explicitly characterized by the US as being on an ex gratia basis, and the U.S. denied having any responsibility or liability for what happened.

 

So, evidently compensation was paid, but I believe it is fairly typical in most settlement agreements for parties to not admit liability. I also note that it took 8 years to reach a settlement. How many of us are still going to be posting on this forum in 8 years?

 

For the legalists, the settlement agreement can be found at http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/79/11131.pdf

 

Regards,

MorganMars

 

All the Iranian's wanted was an open investigation, fair punishment for those ultimately responsible and a sincere apology by way of compensation towards the families of the 290 who died as a result of commander Roger's and his crew making fatal mistakes.

 

Just as those left behind from Concordia want an open investigation, fair punishment for those ultimately responsible and a sincere apology by way of compensation towards the families of the 32 who died as a result of captain Schettino and his crew making fatal mistakes.

[CostaSmurfette]

I must admit, somewhat ashamedly, to being totally unaware of this incident, probably due to being involved in personal life tragedies at the time. It has been interesting, and rather enlightening, to read about this 24 years after the incident in that it provides a more historical perspective, which may give some indication of the ultimate outcome of the current Concordia investigations.

 

 

So, evidently compensation was paid, but I believe it is fairly typical in most settlement agreements for parties to not admit liability. I also note that it took 8 years to reach a settlement. How many of us are still going to be posting on this forum in 8 years?

 

For the legalists, the settlement agreement can be found at http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/79/11131.pdf

 

 

 

Regards,

MorganMars

 

The point is that those who were ultimately responsible...Rogers & his crew, who were actually filmed live during the entire events leading to the shooting down of Iran Air 655, were NEVER prosecuted. A Court Martial was heard but it got fogged by the authorities, no-one was actually punished.

 

But what really p'eed people off...not just in Iran but around the world...is that when Vincennes returned to San Diego after this deployment, they received a ticker tape welcome...despite it being fully known that fatal mistakes had been made by Rogers and his crew.

 

There was no sorrow or remorse shown by anyone on the ship or quayside.

 

The National Geographic series Mayday/Aircrash Investigation did a full reconstruction of every part of this incident, they included the footage shot onboard during the run up to and including the shooting down of the airliner.

 

Not one person on Vincennes was ever held accountable.

 

As uncomfortable as it is to have a decorated Navy commander fall to pieces and have his crew fall to pieces under pressure, it happened and it can easily happen again...no training can ever cover human reactions under stress.

 

In the same way, cruise ship captains can be extremely highly trained and teir vessels be bristling with all the latest gadgets and gizmo's...but the human reaction under stress can never be trained for.

 

Both the Vincennes senior crew and the Concordia senior crew fell well short of what they were trained to do.

 

The only difference is how it was dealt with after the event...and how Joe Public reacted to it.....ticker tape applause for one, a lynch mob for the other....apart from it being 290 vs 32 deaths there are no other differences...human being screwed up, people died.

[CostaSmurfette]

For those wishing to see the Air Crash Investigation documentary regarding Vincennes and IR655, it can be watched in full here :

 

http://youtu.be/1LeYT9p_X3o

 

It is very well made, it shows exactly what happens when brain fog takes over a well trained and experienced crew on a ship and things go tragically wrong.

 

It was a horrific event, that hopefully will never be repeated by ANY naval vessel.

[MorganMars]

I understand your point, CostaSmurfette. My point is that this is par for the course and that ultimately the Concordia disaster could very well have a similar outcome. Unlike, Uniall, I don't believe that the court of public opinion is ever satisfied, and probably rightfully so in a civilized society. There are too many monuments to martyrs to think otherwise IMHO.

 

Regards,

MorganMars

 

The point is that those who were ultimately responsible...Rogers & his crew, who were actually filmed live during the entire events leading to the shooting down of Iran Air 655, were NEVER prosecuted. A Court Martial was heard but it got fogged by the authorities, no-one was actually punished.