Complaining to ABTA

[Pee0305]

After our cruise in January this year we complained to Thomson (won't go into the details of the complaint but if you read my previous posts you will get the gist) and received the standard initial correspondence from them saying that they aim to respond within 28 days. The 28 days came and went and after various IMs on FB to customer services we eventually had a response to the complaint 50 days later basically saying that they would investigate. Anyway, feeling that this had already dragged on long enough we gave them an ultimatum which they did not meet and at the beginning of May we took our complaint to ABTA. Since then we have had a further response from Thomson - just the standard response saying they appreciate that we were disappointed with the holiday, they take customer feedback very seriously, blah de blah ….. BUT they do not appear to have considered the main issues we raised. We responded back via ABTA stating that their reply is unacceptable. ABTA have responded saying "Upon their (Thomsons) response to your further correspondence if the matter remains unresolved, we will be able to provide you with details about how to take matters further." Can anyone tell me what happens at that point? Do ABTA wash their hands of the case? Will we be advised to go to arbitration and if so what will this involve? This has been going on now for 5 months and we feel we are banging our heads against a brick wall. Any advice/previous experience of complaints to Thomson would be gratefully received. :o

[Pensioncruiser]

Hi Pee 0305

Sorry to hear about your problems the only advice I can offer is a case I had in 2009 when we did as you and also found ABTA had nothing to offer this was even when our solicitor approached them, I do feel that a funder of a body has some influence over that body but that's me. We did then raise an official complaint under Regulation 4- Descriptive matter relating to packages must not be misleading and Regulation 15 Unsatisfactory holiday arrangements after a very long drawn out procedure of offers and counter offers we issued proceedings, when no defence was offered the judgment was made in our favour. It was a worry at the time but I think the outcome was well worth it even though it took 18 months to resolve and after Thomson even changed the wording in the T&C's.

I believe if I had a similar open and shut case today I would do the same again, if nothing else but to prove a point.

We still holiday with Thomson because they provide us with a holiday that fits the bill and in all the years we have used them we have only had a couple of problems and I think they have always been with UK administration.

Hope this helps:)

[WeeCountyMan]

I have had a couple of problems with Thomsons a few years ago which were eventually resolved satisfactorily.

 

The only issue was the time they both took to be actioned - I think that is their standard default mode in these situations..

 

I can't claim to have the "magic solution" in any way - but I copied my original complaint to ABTA and indicated this on the letter to Thomsons under my name and signature, silent copies are not a good idea IMO.

 

As the cruise had been booked through the local Thomson TA they also received a copy.

 

Therefore Thomsons were aware that ABTA were aware - right from the start, and vice versa.

 

So, if a subsequent letter to Thomsons is required, again copied to ABTA, there is no need to bring to bring the latter up to speed on the nature of the complaint, nor to indicate Thomsons inactivity timescale.

 

In respect of one of these matters, I eventually wrote direct to the CEO of Thomsons by name. A few days later I had a call from one of his relatively senior staff, all apologies etc., etc., and I got a £40 voucher for money off any future Thomsons holiday or cruise.

 

Mind you that took several weeks to arrive.

 

They deliberately delay addressing ssuch issues IMO in order to put punters off future complaints.

 

Also, I know from previous correspondence that they do not read such letters thoroughly in the first instance.

 

I once wrote to Thomson to praise a hotel rep who had been very helpful "above and beyond the call of duty" - and received a reply apologising for the disappointing service we had experienced !!! :eek:

[BaggersCruising]

 

I once wrote to Thomson to praise a hotel rep who had been very helpful "above and beyond the call of duty" - and received a reply apologising for the disappointing service we had experienced !!! :eek:

 

I could so easily imagine them doing that!

 

They've probably framed your letter now, as they wouldn't have known what to with a letter of praise ;)

[WeeCountyMan]

I could so easily imagine them doing that!

 

They've probably framed your letter now, as they wouldn't have known what to with a letter of praise ;)

 

I subsequently had to write to the hotel rep to apologise and explain that in no size, shape or form had I complained about him to Thomsons, the very opposite in fact.

 

At the time I was "slightly irked" to put it mildly !!! :mad:

 

I suspect it was some wee office lassie, just out of school, landed with the job of filtering through the complaints in tray without realising it was actually a well done that man communication.

Edited July 3, 2015 by WeeCountyMan

[FOD1984]

We found ABTA to be useless. However I'd still recommend you follow their guidance on making a complaint. If you do take it to court you need to show you have been fair and followed the agreed complaints procedure.

 

We exhausted ABTA's complaints process and then started arbitration proceedings. At which point Thomson offered us half what we asked for with a note saying that they know how arbitration works and we would not likely win. At that point I accepted and walked away. It took over four months however.

[Pee0305]

Thank you for your replies. I don't hold out much hope but it's the principal now :confused: Will post again if/when there is a final outcome, fingers crossed.

[rookery]

We had a serious problem with one Thomson cruise and 2 letters from me got the usual fobbing off. I consulted my solicitor who said that even if I won my case I might not be awarded costs so I reluctantly dropped the matter. It left a bitter taste which hasn't gone away. As far as I'm concerned, ABTA is a club run for the benefit of it's members.

[Pee0305]

I have to agree Rookery. I had an email from them yesterday telling me that the case has reached deadlock so I have completed the arbitration notice. Thomson have never addressed the major issues of the complaint but at least I know that I have followed the complaints procedure to the letter so if needs must and they offer nothing I will look for a solicitor to take the case to court - no win, no fee obviously :( FOD1984 I would consider you a winner!

[Pensioncruiser]

As I said previously I have done the court thing but I don't think solicitors will now take on the now win no fee but I wish you luck😕

[furby1]

This sounds exactly like my story. I sent emails of complaint to Thomson after a holiday on Dream in March which was a fiasco for the embarking/disembarking of my wheelchair companion. No response, more emails, still no response. Eventually received standard email from them after about 50 days, more emails from me, no response, then eventually had 2 responses with 2 different case numbers but bog standard responses still.

Contacted ABTA and have followed their procedures. Thomson did eventually offer £150 vouchers between 2 of us on a £3500 cruise. We said no so we're now at arbitration stage. The arbitration notice has been sent and we are awaiting response with no expectation at all.

Next stage will be arbitration itself but meanwhile I have contacted Disability organizations, Equality Support Services and the Maritime coastguard agency. It appears that ships not embarking/disembarking in a European port are not under the same rules as those that are. So as Dream was in Jamaica we have to look at other laws which might apply to our case.

I have no intention of letting it just go, originally I wanted an apology only, but to be told by Thomsons that "it is the way we normally do it" was not an apology and just because it may be normal for them does not make it right! Yep you've guessed it I'm angry! :mad::mad:

[Pensioncruiser]

I wish you all the best and congratulations for sticking out for your rights☺

[okavango]

What exactly did they do wrong ??????

[furby1]

On previous cruises there has always been a ramp to get on ship, and at ports were they needed to use stairs they have opened a door lower down in the keel to allow access for wheelchairs only via a ramp. (usually where they take luggage and stores in).

On our "Dream" cruise they only used stairs and every time we arrived at them asked my wheelchair companion if she would get out of the chair to use the stairs. She was the only passenger in a chair who was unable to, but those who did manage suffered by doing so.

We then had to wait until they could find 4 crew members to carry her and the chair up/down the stairs. Often they were not strong enough and ended up bouncing her up/down each step. They admitted they were not as yet trained and it showed in their placement of hands to carry the chair and I usually had to show them which parts of the chair were safe to hold. She was swayed from side to side and I was often at the bottom of the ramp with my heart in my mouth! We waited on average at least 20 minutes each time before they could find enough crew members, and at one port waited 40 minutes at the top of the gangway before they arrived. At the same port we waited at the bottom of the gangway in 37% heat with no shade or seating for myself for 20 minutes before a crew member leaving the ship took pity on us and went back on board to get 3 of his friends who were on a break.

Within a few days my companion was refusing to leave the ship as she felt humiliated and on show. She also felt she was a nuisance to the crew and was scared to be carried due to their inexperience. Every evening and morning I had to try and give her sufficient courage to disembark. She did not get of at one port and it took a lot of talking from me and fellow passengers to eventually get her to disembark at the next port. Theres a lot more but....

[Pensioncruiser]

Hi furby1

I can fully understand your frustration with this but fortunately not that of your partner we have been on many cruises and have often been on the ramp behind someone that needed assistance only to realise how lucky we were and how brave that person was please let her know that the majority of cruisers do not worry about a slight delay so that someone can enjoy the cruise please do not let this put you or your partner off cruising and good luck:)

[okavango]

On previous cruises there has always been a ramp to get on ship, and at ports were they needed to use stairs they have opened a door lower down in the keel to allow access for wheelchairs only via a ramp. (usually where they take luggage and stores in).

On our "Dream" cruise they only used stairs and every time we arrived at them asked my wheelchair companion if she would get out of the chair to use the stairs. She was the only passenger in a chair who was unable to, but those who did manage suffered by doing so.

We then had to wait until they could find 4 crew members to carry her and the chair up/down the stairs. Often they were not strong enough and ended up bouncing her up/down each step. They admitted they were not as yet trained and it showed in their placement of hands to carry the chair and I usually had to show them which parts of the chair were safe to hold. She was swayed from side to side and I was often at the bottom of the ramp with my heart in my mouth! We waited on average at least 20 minutes each time before they could find enough crew members, and at one port waited 40 minutes at the top of the gangway before they arrived. At the same port we waited at the bottom of the gangway in 37% heat with no shade or seating for myself for 20 minutes before a crew member leaving the ship took pity on us and went back on board to get 3 of his friends who were on a break.

Within a few days my companion was refusing to leave the ship as she felt humiliated and on show. She also felt she was a nuisance to the crew and was scared to be carried due to their inexperience. Every evening and morning I had to try and give her sufficient courage to disembark. She did not get of at one port and it took a lot of talking from me and fellow passengers to eventually get her to disembark at the next port. Theres a lot more but....

 

 

Although i can sympathise with the problems you had i cant find anywhere where Thomson's proactively promote the Dream as a ship being highly suited for disabled passengers, specially adapted for all their needs in all circumstances. Until some company is prepared to invest the vast sum involved in a specially designed ship cruising for the disabled will always be a bit of a compromise although the more modern ships are likely to have more adaptions built in than such as the Dream.

[campolady]

On previous cruises there has always been a ramp to get on ship, and at ports were they needed to use stairs they have opened a door lower down in the keel to allow access for wheelchairs only via a ramp. (usually where they take luggage and stores in).

On our "Dream" cruise they only used stairs and every time we arrived at them asked my wheelchair companion if she would get out of the chair to use the stairs. She was the only passenger in a chair who was unable to, but those who did manage suffered by doing so.

We then had to wait until they could find 4 crew members to carry her and the chair up/down the stairs. Often they were not strong enough and ended up bouncing her up/down each step. They admitted they were not as yet trained and it showed in their placement of hands to carry the chair and I usually had to show them which parts of the chair were safe to hold. She was swayed from side to side and I was often at the bottom of the ramp with my heart in my mouth! We waited on average at least 20 minutes each time before they could find enough crew members, and at one port waited 40 minutes at the top of the gangway before they arrived. At the same port we waited at the bottom of the gangway in 37% heat with no shade or seating for myself for 20 minutes before a crew member leaving the ship took pity on us and went back on board to get 3 of his friends who were on a break.

Within a few days my companion was refusing to leave the ship as she felt humiliated and on show. She also felt she was a nuisance to the crew and was scared to be carried due to their inexperience. Every evening and morning I had to try and give her sufficient courage to disembark. She did not get of at one port and it took a lot of talking from me and fellow passengers to eventually get her to disembark at the next port. Theres a lot more but....

 

I can empathise with your frustrations but, as already said, the Dream is not promoted as a disabled friendly ship so I would doubt you could object to the lack of facilities or ABTA be able to help.

[geomagot]

its also in terms & conditions

 

[CRUISIN LINDA]

But they do often have 2 gangways in use, and quite often one on a lower deck especially for disabled people. I realise that the ability to use the lower decks can be affected by the tides, but quite frankly, when the higher decks are used, they can be very steep for able bodied people let alone those with walking difficulties.

[skioncruises]

But they do often have 2 gangways in use, and quite often one on a lower deck especially for disabled people. I realise that the ability to use the lower decks can be affected by the tides, but quite frankly, when the higher decks are used, they can be very steep for able bodied people let alone those with walking difficulties.

 

Hi Linda

 

We have noticed over the last few cruises that the lower gangway is rarely open now.

 

It used to be great when both gangways were open, especially when trips came back as there was the choice of which to go to avoid the congestion.

 

Even the crew now have to join the passengers and they are always desperate to get on because of their time schedule for starting back to work.

 

It's probably a security/health & safety issue these days because the lower gangway often took the passengers through crew cabin/work areas.:)

[okavango]

its also in terms & conditions

 

 

pardon the pun but the complainer has not really got a leg to stand on as regards ABTA ,also what has the MCA got to do with it, foreign reg ship in foreign waters, not their remit, also if it was in british waters the t&c's have got it covered

[furby1]

Happy to say that Thomson's did make us an offer a day before ABTA was to make their decision, and we accepted.

Although we are glad it is over with we still feel that the matter of the gangway needs to be addressed. I know that in some ports due to the tide it is impossible for them to have a low gangway, just as in some ports they need to tender in.

We always inform the cruise company prior to booking of my friends disability and arrange for a disabled cabin, wheelchair adapted taxi for transfers and enquire at which ports we may have problems disembarking due to tenders, port authorities and tidal issues. When booking on the Dream we had not been informed of the issue we eventually had despite a long phone call discussing these issues.

We have been told by Thomson's that the use of which gangways are to be used is solely that of the Captain.

The Maritime and Coastal Agency have informed us that they will be contacting Thomson with regard to the matter, to ensure that their ships will conform to Regulation (EU) No. 1177/2010 concerning the rights of passengers when travelling by sea and inland waterways while in Europe.

In other words in European ports if it is possible for a lower gangway to be lowered then they should do so.