Retired Military Wearing Uniform on Formal Night

[QQRZZA]

For Retired U S Army cruisers, the short answer is NO! Per Army Regulation 670-1, Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia, 3 February 2005, page 315....

 

Retired personnel may wear the uniform " 1. while attending military funerals, memorial services, weddings, inaugurals, and other occasions of ceremony. 2. attending parades on national or state holidays, or other patriotic parades or ceremonies in which any active or reserve United states military unit is taking part. Wear of the Army uniform at any other time, or for any other purpose than stated above is prohibited".

 

The other US armed forces may have different rules, but the US Army is pretty clear. That's why you do not see many older cruisers in Army blues.

[schertzcruiser]

For Retired U S Army cruisers, the short answer is NO! Per Army Regulation 670-1, Wear and Appearance of Army Uniforms and Insignia, 3 February 2005, page 315....

 

Retired personnel may wear the uniform " 1. while attending military funerals, memorial services, weddings, inaugurals, and other occasions of ceremony. 2. attending parades on national or state holidays, or other patriotic parades or ceremonies in which any active or reserve United states military unit is taking part. Wear of the Army uniform at any other time, or for any other purpose than stated above is prohibited".

 

The other US armed forces may have different rules, but the US Army is pretty clear. That's why you do not see many older cruisers in Army blues.

\

 

And besides that after 20 years who can get it on again? After leaving the military and having a "Desk Job" for 20 years the darn thing won't fit anymore. :o:o

[RichardK]

Yea, but they make more exceptions for Navy personnel --- i.e., gives them that feeling of being a little more a part of the action!!

[Joedog]

RichardK,

 

I cant decide whether I should be insulted or amused by your post. I will choose amused and reply....

 

they dont "make exceptions" for us (Navy personnel) they give us "more latitude to make our own decisions" because we are smarter.

 

oh and we dont need "exceptions" to feel a part of the action. Sailing through a mine field at midnight doing 20 knots or launching and recovering mission sorties around the clock for weeks on end or landing Marines or a hundred other little things does that for us.

 

You are just jealous of our A/C, warm showers and three hot meals a day. You know, there hasnt been a draft for a long time so who's fault is it when people make poor choices?

[RichardK]

>>>You are just jealous of our A/C, warm showers and three hot meals a day.<<< I must admit, that's very true!! After graduating the Academy, I had very little of such comforts for a few years.

 

Hey, don’t be offended. You Navy guys do a lot of good! Let me paraphrase what Keifer Sutherland said to Tom Cruise in a Few Good Men: "I love the Navy...........we appreciate the fact that you take us and drop us off at the battlefield."

[RuthC]

I love the Navy...........we appreciate the fact that you take us and drop us off at the battlefield."

Ouch.

[sheldrvrT6A]

All

I have always wondered about this question. As a retired Air Force branch chief and after five cruises seeing NOONE in uniform at the formal functions it was neat reading what you all had to say.

 

I just got off of the Oosteredam yesterday and again did not see any uniforms except for crew.

Would I???? probably as I wore that uniform for thirty years, will probably be buried in it so if I want to wear it and risk a court martial ... bring it on!!

We got guys refusing to go to Iraq and Afa at present and nothing is being done to them so if they want to pick on us current retired reserve guys they will need Tom Cruise in his lawyer role to go after me... lol

Jerry

[QQRZZA]

The basic question was about retired military wearing uniforms on cruise ships. Somehow we wound up on people ""making poor choices", and Navy folks being "smarter' than the rest of us. Military people voluntarilly accept the rules and customs of their particular Service. For better or worse, the Military Departments do have specific rules on the wear of the uniform, even by their retired personnel. One can accept or reject the rules, but they are there. The Services will not go after somemone for a violation, but most members respect the rules and abide by the established protocol. Retired members of the Service are legally still in the Service, on the "retired list" as long as they remain in "retired" status. They do not collect a "pension", they earn "retired pay". Accordingly, they are expected to abide by the rules of their particular service.

 

After 30+ years in the Army working with professionals from all the services, it's my opinion that all the services have mostly pretty smart dedicated people who routinely put themselves in harms way for the national good. Let's not belittle members of the other Services. We all know plenty of friends in all the services who paid the ultimate price whether or not they were drafted, enlisted, or commissioned. But...back to the initial question, your choice, but if you are interested, there are rules for each Service. Most will respect the Service protocol for wearing uniforms.

[Joedog]

As a "Lifer" I have great respect for all members of all services but that doesnt mean I wont poke a little fun at them when I can.

 

Who says Navy men cant take a joke? Heck we've been "taking" Marines places for over 200 years. Of course, that might be taking a joke a little too far.

 

As far as the original reason for this post, I am quite familiar with that and have been both amused and dismayed by some of the responses.

 

It is too bad that the uniform regs dont just say "NO CRUISE SHIP FORMAL DINNERS" or "YES CRUISE SHIP FORMAL DINNERS" instead of "what the retiree feel is appropriate" (paraphrasing there).

 

I am somewhat surprised that this post is still active but do enjoy most of the responses.

[CDRMark]

As someone who is Navy blue, but almost 50% "purple" (joint), I think the inter-service "digs' here have been within the bounds of the usual rivalry we all indulge in from time to time. I'm glad we're all on the same side, cuz I'd hate to make us mad.:)

Now, somebody say "AMEN!".

Cheers

MarkB

[mrsred]

Amen.

 

I have always looked upon those from the other branches of the US Armed Forces like my little brothers.

 

I can pick on my little brothers...but no one else had better try it!

 

Best wishes,

~e

[cruzincurt]

I've been monitoring this thread for awhile. First, we can not thank those in uniform enough for their service. It is because of them and their sacrifice that we are free.

 

Now, on our first cruise after 9/11, a husband and wife at our table were Marines on active duty. They wore their dress uniforms to formal nights. It brought a tear to most of us at our table to see them so smartly dressed. We were proud of them.

 

No doubt you are proud of your service. I just don't understand why a retired person would want to wear their uniform on a cruise. On our cruises, uniforms have been few and most appeared, by their age, to be active military.

[CDRMark]

..snip..

I just don't understand why a retired person would want to wear their uniform on a cruise. snip

Bottom line, you're not required to.:)

Cheers

MarkB

[RichardK]

Now, somebody say "AMEN!".

 

AMEN!!

 

Go Army, Beat Navy!!!!!!

[mel31]

Wear your uniform? Absolutely yes!!! Active military and veterans show their pride in themselves, our country, and the military when they put on the uniform. My dad was WWII Normany invasion, day 2. As with most vets, he loved the Veterans day, Memorial day and other special days and their parades. But, once in a while, he would appear around the house with his old uniform on. He would say "... they were comfortable clothes filled with strong memories..." To his dying day, after parades, people would shake his hand and say, thanks! Now, when I see people in uniform, I do the same. Wear the uniform! Smile when others shake your hand. Smile at those who forget to.

[drayke]

The regulation pertaining to wear of the uniform by Retired Army is below.

 

The directly applicable paragraph is:

 

>>f. In addition to the occasions for wear listed above, retired personnel are authorized to wear the uniform only on the

following occasions. Uniforms for these occasions are restricted to service and dress uniforms; the BDU and physical

fitness uniforms will not be worn.

(1) While attending military funerals, memorial services, weddings, inaugurals, and other occasions of ceremony.

(2) Attending parades on national or state holidays, or other patriotic parades or ceremonies in which any active or

reserve United States military unit is taking part. Wear of the Army uniform at any other time, or for any other purpose

than stated above is prohibited.<<

 

I'm not sure if formal dinner night on a civilian cruise constitutes a "other" military occasion of ceremony. However, one could argue the regulation does not specifically state "other military occasion of ceremony", while the opposing argument would be that the use of "other" is implied from the beginning of the sentance. Decide for yourself.

 

Do keep in mind however, that as a matter of force protection, today's military is discouraged and some often ordered to refrain from wearing the uniform in public places not duty related as doing so encourages identification as a target of opportunity for terrorists. Those who are active duty who wear their uniform on ship for formal night (or any other reason if not on duty) are in violation of the level 1 Anti terrorism guidelines that all members of the military are briefed on annually.

 

Drayke

 

 

From AR 670–1 • 3 February 2005:

30–3. Wear of the uniform by retired personnel

a. Personnel who will be advanced to a higher grade upon retirement have the option of wearing the insignia of that

grade thereafter.

b. Retired personnel on active duty will wear their uniform and insignia in the same manner as prescribed for

personnel in the Active Army of corresponding grade and branch.

c. Retired personnel not on active duty may wear either the uniform reflecting their grade and branch on the date of

their retirement, or the uniform for personnel in the Active Army of corresponding grade and branch, when appropriate,

but may not intermix the two uniforms. Personnel will wear the grade as shown on the retired grade of rank line on the

retirement order.

d. Retired personnel not on active duty are not authorized to wear shoulder sleeve insignia, except as follows:

(1) Personnel performing instructor duties at an educational institution conducting courses of instruction approved

by the Armed Forces will wear the shoulder sleeve insignia of the command that is responsible for the course of

instruction. Senior and junior ROTC instructors will wear the Cadet Command shoulder sleeve insignia on their left

shoulder (see AR 145–1 and 145–2 for wear of the uniform by senior and junior ROTC instructors, respectively).

(2) Retired personnel are authorized to wear the shoulder sleeve insignia for U.S. Army Retirees on the left

shoulder. The insignia consists of a white cloth disc with a blue border, and an inner white disc with a red border,

which bears a blue and white adaptation of the coat of arms of the United States. The outer disk that surrounds the coat

of arms contains the inscription “UNITED STATES ARMY” in red letters at the top, and the word “RETIRED” in

blue letters at the bottom (see fig 30–1).

(3) Retired personnel may wear the shoulder sleeve insignia for former wartime service (SSI–FWTS) on the right

shoulder if they were authorized wear of the SSI–FWTS while on active duty.

e. Retired personnel not on active duty are not authorized to wear the Army uniform when they are instructors or

responsible for military discipline at an educational institution, unless the educational institution is conducting courses

of instruction approved by the Armed Forces.

f. In addition to the occasions for wear listed above, retired personnel are authorized to wear the uniform only on the

following occasions. Uniforms for these occasions are restricted to service and dress uniforms; the BDU and physical

fitness uniforms will not be worn.

(1) While attending military funerals, memorial services, weddings, inaugurals, and other occasions of ceremony.

(2) Attending parades on national or state holidays, or other patriotic parades or ceremonies in which any active or

reserve United States military unit is taking part. Wear of the Army uniform at any other time, or for any other purpose

than stated above is prohibited.

 

http://www.usapa.army.mil/USAPA_PUB_pubrange_P.asp

[iceman93]

I think we've now established that, according to military regulations, retired military should NOT wear their uniforms on unofficial occasions like cruise ship formal nights. Add to that my earlier points on why wearing a uniform could come across as egotistical glory-seeking, and I think (though I'm probably wrong) that most people would agree it is not a good idea. Serve your country and wear the uniform with pride, but then represent yourself with diginity and respect in whatever civilian clothes you choose after you hang up the active duty duds.

[CDRMark]

The regulation pertaining to wear of the uniform by Retired Army is below.

 

The directly applicable paragraph is:

 

>>f. In addition to the occasions for wear listed above, retired personnel are authorized to wear the uniform only on the

following occasions. Uniforms for these occasions are restricted to service and dress uniforms; the BDU and physical

fitness uniforms will not be worn.

(1) While attending military funerals, memorial services, weddings, inaugurals, and other occasions of ceremony.

(2) Attending parades on national or state holidays, or other patriotic parades or ceremonies in which any active or

reserve United States military unit is taking part. Wear of the Army uniform at any other time, or for any other purpose

than stated above is prohibited.<<

 

I'm not sure if formal dinner night on a civilian cruise constitutes a "other" military occasion of ceremony. However, one could argue the regulation does not specifically state "other military occasion of ceremony", while the opposing argument would be that the use of "other" is implied from the beginning of the sentance. Decide for yourself.

 

Do keep in mind however, that as a matter of force protection, today's military is discouraged and some often ordered to refrain from wearing the uniform in public places not duty related as doing so encourages identification as a target of opportunity for terrorists. Those who are active duty who wear their uniform on ship for formal night (or any other reason if not on duty) are in violation of the level 1 Anti terrorism guidelines that all members of the military are briefed on annually.

 

Drayke

 

 

From AR 670–1 • 3 February 2005:

30–3. Wear of the uniform by retired personnel

a. Personnel who will be advanced to a higher grade upon retirement have the option of wearing the insignia of that

grade thereafter.

b. Retired personnel on active duty will wear their uniform and insignia in the same manner as prescribed for

personnel in the Active Army of corresponding grade and branch.

c. Retired personnel not on active duty may wear either the uniform reflecting their grade and branch on the date of

their retirement, or the uniform for personnel in the Active Army of corresponding grade and branch, when appropriate,

but may not intermix the two uniforms. Personnel will wear the grade as shown on the retired grade of rank line on the

retirement order.

d. Retired personnel not on active duty are not authorized to wear shoulder sleeve insignia, except as follows:

(1) Personnel performing instructor duties at an educational institution conducting courses of instruction approved

by the Armed Forces will wear the shoulder sleeve insignia of the command that is responsible for the course of

instruction. Senior and junior ROTC instructors will wear the Cadet Command shoulder sleeve insignia on their left

shoulder (see AR 145–1 and 145–2 for wear of the uniform by senior and junior ROTC instructors, respectively).

(2) Retired personnel are authorized to wear the shoulder sleeve insignia for U.S. Army Retirees on the left

shoulder. The insignia consists of a white cloth disc with a blue border, and an inner white disc with a red border,

which bears a blue and white adaptation of the coat of arms of the United States. The outer disk that surrounds the coat

of arms contains the inscription “UNITED STATES ARMY” in red letters at the top, and the word “RETIRED” in

blue letters at the bottom (see fig 30–1).

(3) Retired personnel may wear the shoulder sleeve insignia for former wartime service (SSI–FWTS) on the right

shoulder if they were authorized wear of the SSI–FWTS while on active duty.

e. Retired personnel not on active duty are not authorized to wear the Army uniform when they are instructors or

responsible for military discipline at an educational institution, unless the educational institution is conducting courses

of instruction approved by the Armed Forces.

f. In addition to the occasions for wear listed above, retired personnel are authorized to wear the uniform only on the

following occasions. Uniforms for these occasions are restricted to service and dress uniforms; the BDU and physical

fitness uniforms will not be worn.

(1) While attending military funerals, memorial services, weddings, inaugurals, and other occasions of ceremony.

(2) Attending parades on national or state holidays, or other patriotic parades or ceremonies in which any active or

reserve United States military unit is taking part. Wear of the Army uniform at any other time, or for any other purpose

than stated above is prohibited.

 

http://www.usapa.army.mil/USAPA_PUB_pubrange_P.asp

jeez, now everyone knows our secret to fight insomnia= read the riveting regs.:) oh, and thank you again iceman93

Cheers

MarkB

[Joedog]

ICEMAN,

 

I have to say that I disagree with your statement that "we've now established that, according to military regulations, retired military should NOT wear their uniforms on unofficial occasions like cruise ship formal nights."

 

Below is an exerpt from US NAVY UNIFORM REGS concerning wearing the uniform when retired.

 

61002. UNIFORMS FOR RETIRED PERSONNEL

 

1. GENERAL. Retired officers and enlisted personnel, who are not on active duty, may wear the uniform, insignia, and qualifications corre­sponding to the rank or rating indicated on the retired list.

 

2. UNIFORM AUTHORIZED

 

a. Retired personnel may wear uniforms at cere­monies or official functions when the dignity of the occa­sion and good taste dictate. Wearing a uniform is appro­priate for memorial services, weddings, funerals, balls, patriotic or military parades, ceremonies in which any active or reserve United States military unit is partici­pating, and meetings or functions of military associations.

 

b. Retired personnel may wear the uniform of their grade while instructing a cadet corps or similar organization at approved naval or military academies or other approved academic institutions.

 

3. UNIFORM NOT AUTHORIZED. Retired personnel are prohibited from wearing the uniform in connection with personal enterprises, business activities, or while attend­ing or participating in any demonstration, assembly or activity for the purpose of furthering personal or partisan views on political, social, economic, or religious issues.

 

As you can see, I am allowed to wear my uniform at "official functions when the dignity of the occasion and good taste dictate".

 

As you can also see, none of the specific reasons why wearing a uniform would be prohibited apply to cruise ship formal nights.

 

The only question for me is "is formal night on a cruise ship an occasion of sufficient dignity and good taste to warrant my wearing my uniform"?

 

That is what I was trying to get a feel for from other retirees when I started this thread.

 

I also disagree with your assesment that "Add to that my earlier points on why wearing a uniform could come across as egotistical glory-seeking, and I think (though I'm probably wrong) that most people would agree it is not a good idea".

 

From reading this and the other threads I come away with the idea that "most" people are in favor of retired military wearing their unforms on formal night.

 

The thing that tickles me is when people ask questions as to why I would want to wear my uniform on "formal night" and their wanting to assign some kind of negative reason to it, whether it is my making a "political statement" or me being "egostistical and glory seeking".

 

What is formal night anyway? What function does it serve? Is it just some make believe BS costume party where we all get to "dress up"? If so, what better way to "dress up" than a uniform? Of course, if it is just a costume party, I would agree that wearing my uniform would be inappropriate and undignified.

 

But in reading the vehement posts by people defending formal night and wanting to make sure that it remains "formal" I get the idea that it is something more than just a costume party.

 

So, my original delimma remains, is formal night "formal" enough for my uniform?

 

For me, and this is just my opinion, I think that most people who are opposed to retired military wearing their uniforms on formal night are just jealous.

[sheldrvrT6A]

Joedog

You dah man!

Jerry

[RichardK]

Wearing a uniform is appro­priate for memorial services, weddings, funerals, balls, patriotic or military parades, ceremonies in which any active or reserve United States military unit is partici­pating, and meetings or functions of military associations.

 

As you can see, I am allowed to wear my uniform at "official functions when the dignity of the occasion and good taste dictate".

As you can also see, none of the specific reasons why wearing a uniform would be prohibited apply to cruise ship formal nights.

 

 

Allow me to make two points here:

First, I think you've already made up your mind as to what you're going to do. You've posted this same thread on all of the major cruise lines. You seem to be embracing confirmers, and pushing aside dissenters.

 

Second, to me the Navy regulations seem clear enough, and not all that dissimilar from the Army’s. ALL of those functions they mention above are military in nature, from memorial services, ending with functions of military associations. Now for those mentioned in between>>>It seems they are referring to a wedding of an active duty person, and not the wedding of your Cousin Vinny; the funeral of a Military Retiree or Vet, and not your Aunt Harriet. These would seem to be the "official functions” they are referring to, and not your 25th high school reunion or formal night on a cruise ship.

[rickcohen2]

...For me, and this is just my opinion, I think that most people who are opposed to retired military wearing their uniforms on formal night are just jealous.

Jealous?

If I may ask without offending, jealous of what?

I just got lost.

[Navy_Chief]

What about paragraph 4 of the Navy Regs? That's the real sticking point IMHO. You are, after all, on a Dutch ship, flying a Dutch flag. I think you could easily get around the other paragraphs and rationalize the regs except for this. Again, do what you wish, it makes no difference to me, I'm not going to look at your service any differently:

 

4. FOREIGN COUNTRIES. Retired personnel, who are not on active duty, living or visiting a foreign country, may only wear a uniform to attend ceremonies or social functions when wearing a uniform is required by the terms of the invitations of customs of the country.

 

I suppose if HAL "invites" retired personnel to wear a uniform, your good to go.

[Navy_Chief]

Grrrr the white board of repeat!

[iceman93]

Thanks to those who have backed me up. RichardK has summed up very nicely what I would have posted next, so I will just second his points. And I will also second rickcohen2's question: jealous of what?