Bringing food onboard the ship

[SCX22]

2 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

This is really not a Princess policy, it is part of the USPH/CDC Vessel Sanitation Program, where food quality (time/temperature for potentially hazardous foods) and handling have to be verified for all food sources.  Whether or not Princess is seeing a stronger enforcement of this by the USPH inspectors during their inspections, or whether CDC has been getting reports about GI illness on the ship from food brought onboard, I can't say.  And, if crew are bringing back cooked food from restaurants, this is a violation, and likely one that becomes obvious to USPH inspectors, so Princess may have been "dinged" on this in past inspections.

 

Not doubting what you're saying.

 

But, as a restaurant partner I've seen so many other things that would violate food safety standards that would get a restaurant on land closed by inspectors that flies on a cruise ship.  For example, the dairy that's out in pitchers at the self serve coffee/tea station in the buffet:  Fresh dairy is perishable and always has to be kept under refrigeration.  Should it not be under refrigeration, it has it be kept in a thermally insolated carafe and can only be kept out at ambient temperatures for a maximum of 2 hours.  On Princess ships, the said dairy as of recent is always in a stainless pitcher and kept out the entire breakfast run, possibly all day, instead of being tossed replaced on regular intervals (on some ships, I've noticed the lack of food service labels noting when the pitcher contents have to be tossed and the pitcher replaced).  Moreover, there's cross contamination in that when a pitcher of dairy runs out, the same pitcher is only refilled and not replaced with a new pitcher with strictly new dairy product, thus allowing the dairy that has been sitting out to mix with new dairy and deeming the entire pitcher of dairy contaminated.  This is just one of the myriad of questionable food safety practices.

 

Not trying to poke holes at adhering to regulations, but just noticing a double standard.

[chengkp75]

4 hours ago, SCX22 said:

Fresh dairy is perishable and always has to be kept under refrigeration.  Should it not be under refrigeration, it has it be kept in a thermally insolated carafe and can only be kept out at ambient temperatures for a maximum of 2 hours.

On cruise ships, potentially hazardous food is under one of two regimes, per the USPH/CDC.  "Temperature control" or "time control".  Temperature control is only allowed when the temperature of the food can be guaranteed to be in the safe zone at all times, so food out on a buffet line is not under "temperature control" (even in steam tables).  So, the dairy you see on the buffet line is on "time control", which means that 4 hours maximum, after it is taken out of temperature control (the refrigerator), it must be discarded.  Due to the regulated opening hours of places like the ship buffets, many ships use small color coded dot stickers, in inconspicuous places (like the bottom), that show when the product needs to be discarded.  Have you seen the pitcher being refilled?  If that is so, it is a violation of the VSP, and could get serious deductions on their score.  Now, to say that VSP violations never happen is ridiculous, but the better trained lines and ships live every day as if they are being inspected by USPH, so that the required actions become second nature ("muscle memory").

 

I have worked with the USPH inspectors, most of whom are former state and local health inspectors, and they universally say that they have far more faith in the sanitation of cruise ships than land restaurants.

[ecs66]

On 5/22/2024 at 5:26 PM, MsSoCalCruiser said:

they took my soup. 

Did they say, "No soup for you!!!"?

[MsSoCalCruiser]

16 minutes ago, ecs66 said:

Did they say, "No soup for you!!!"?

That is exactly what I heard in my head when it happened! 😂😂😂

[SCX22]

4 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

If that is so, it is a violation of the VSP, and could get serious deductions on their score.

 

And that's the other double standard for cruise ships; they can fail inspections, but not have to stop operations completely, rectify the violations, and get a re-inspection to re-open, like restaurants on land do.  The repercussion is just a slap on the wrist.  I understand why, but it's a double standard nonetheless.  After getting an inspection score of 68 last year, the MSC Seascape still sailed.

[Teechur]

6 hours ago, SCX22 said:

 

And that's the other double standard for cruise ships; they can fail inspections, but not have to stop operations completely, rectify the violations, and get a re-inspection to re-open, like restaurants on land do.  The repercussion is just a slap on the wrist.  I understand why, but it's a double standard nonetheless.  After getting an inspection score of 68 last year, the MSC Seascape still sailed.

Double-secret probation! 🙀 Does Dean Wormer know about this? 😲

[SCX22]

3 minutes ago, Teechur said:

Double-secret probation! 🙀 Does Dean Wormer know about this? 😲

I had to Google that and it still doesn't make sense.  Care to elaborate?  Way before my time.

Edited May 25 by SCX22

[Teechur]

7 minutes ago, SCX22 said:

I had to Google that and it still doesn't make sense.  Care to elaborate?  Way before my time.

Animal House with John Belushi. Gotta watch it!

 

Animal House - Wikipedia

 

[chengkp75]

10 hours ago, SCX22 said:

The repercussion is just a slap on the wrist.

This is a bit disingenuous.  While it has not happened recently, the USPH does have the authority to stop a cruise ship from operating in US waters, and from boarding passengers in the US.  And, remember, the USPH's mandate is not to keep cruise ship passengers healthy, as state and local health inspectors are, it is to prevent the introduction into the US of infectious disease.  So, the threshold for stopping a ship is that there has to be a clear and direct threat to public health in order to stop a foreign ship.  Further, the USPH/CDC are supposed to make these health inspections every time a ship enters US waters, as they do for cargo ships.  Think about a restaurant being inspected weekly.  The VSP was set up so that if a ship follows the VSP policies and procedures, they will not be subject to inspection every cruise, but if a ship repeatedly scores poorly, USPH can resort to inspections every cruise.  These include health interviews with a selected number of crew and passengers, before anyone can disembark, creating delays for the cruise line and passengers.  And, finally, do local or state health codes involve themselves in how the kitchens are constructed, or how the kitchen equipment is manufactured?  Because both of those are part of the VSP approval process for new ships, and the operational inspections of the ships.

[SCX22]

52 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Further, the USPH/CDC are supposed to make these health inspections every time a ship enters US waters

 

Right, so unless one is sailing into US waters the rules don't apply?  Are the cruise lines just going through the motions when out of US waters?  Is it a mice play when the cat is away situation?  Serious question. 

 

52 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, the threshold for stopping a ship is that there has to be a clear and direct threat to public health in order to stop a foreign ship.

On land, if the health department can trace the spread of a pathogen to an establishment, the establishment gets shut down.  This usually happens when there are multiple diners who go to the hospital or make candid reports to the food facility inspectors (that's what we call them in California) in an area.  The inspectors interview the affected diners and gather evidence and conduct and inspection of the facility.  Below is one such notable case where this happened and the establishment was shut down. 

 

52 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, the threshold for stopping a ship is that there has to be a clear and direct threat to public health in order to stop a foreign ship.

Just trying to figure out what the threshold for is "clear and direct threat to public health is."  It seems like every winter, there are ships in the Caribbean that are harboring Norovirus, are being reported the CDC, and aren't being stopped.  The passengers are live transmitters of Noro!  It's hard to trace the source of Noro on land, but if you're on a ship, it's kind of a no brainer where you contracted it from.  The question is who or what brought the Noro on the ship.  I guess this is a question for the USPH inspectors, but the threshold seems pretty low.

 

52 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, finally, do local or state health codes involve themselves in how the kitchens are constructed, or how the kitchen equipment is manufactured?

In California state health codes do involve themselves in how kitchens are constructed.  An establishment won't pass it's commercial building and licensing inspection if it doesn't adhere to these codes.  As far as how kitchen equipment is manufactured, establishments must use commercial grade equipment at all times and there's a list of manufacturers that an establishment can purchase equipment from.  For example, an establishment can't use a countertop toaster oven from Wal-Mart for it's operation.

Edited May 25 by SCX22

[chengkp75]

16 minutes ago, SCX22 said:

Right, so unless one is sailing into US waters the rules don't apply?  Are the cruise lines just going through the motions when out of US waters?  Is it a mice play when the cat is away situation?  Serious question.

No, the VSP agreement is that the ship will adhere to USPH regulations during the entire voyage, if the voyage calls at a US port sometime during the voyage (homeport or port call).  In Europe, the EU has a "ShipSan" program similar to the USPH VSP.

 

18 minutes ago, SCX22 said:

In California state health codes do involve themselves in how kitchens are constructed.  An establishment won't pass it's commercial building and licensing inspection if it doesn't adhere to these codes

So, as you say, serious question.  Does this code involve how the walls and ceilings are constructed, such as not allowing square inside corners that are hard to clean, but require radiused corners in walls and ceilings?  Are the size of any gaps in walls or ceilings regulated?  VSP does not allow any gap wider than a credit card is thick.

 

21 minutes ago, SCX22 said:

As far as how kitchen equipment is manufactured, establishments must use commercial grade equipment at all times and there's a list of manufacturers that an establishment can purchase equipment from.

Does this list require those approved manufacturers to not use slotted head fasteners on the outside of equipment?  VSP does not allow either slotted or Phillips head screws to be used, as these are difficult to clean.

 

24 minutes ago, SCX22 said:

It seems like every winter, there are ships in the Caribbean that are harboring Norovirus, are being reported the CDC, and aren't being stopped.

And, how many hospitals, nursing homes, college campuses have noro cases, that are never reported, or never make headlines?  How many of them are shut down for this?  And, ships are being stopped, when the reported cases reach a certain threshold limit.  Do any of the land based close quarters living centers I mentioned above have to make a report to the CDC of GI illness, every week, even if that number is zero?

 

My nephew just went to the hospital last week to get stitches, and came home with impetigo.  Even the doctors acknowledged where it came from.  Any repercussions there?

 

And, from the complaint form you posted, the use of bamboo steamers would not be allowed for either storage or cooking, as they are difficult to clean.  VSP doesn't even allow wooden "flights" to hold drink glasses, as these are difficult to clean.

[SCX22]

16 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

No, the VSP agreement is that the ship will adhere to USPH regulations during the entire voyage, if the voyage calls at a US port sometime during the voyage (homeport or port call).  In Europe, the EU has a "ShipSan" program similar to the USPH VSP.

 

Good to know!

 

18 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

So, as you say, serious question.  Does this code involve how the walls and ceilings are constructed, such as not allowing square inside corners that are hard to clean, but require radiused corners in walls and ceilings?  Are the size of any gaps in walls or ceilings regulated?

Yes to both your examples.  Off the top of my head, can't remember what the code regarding gaps are but the margins are small because air gaps can be the cause of the spread of fire.

 

23 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Does this list require those approved manufacturers to not use slotted head fasteners on the outside of equipment?  VSP does not allow either slotted or Phillips head screws to be used, as these are difficult to clean.

Negative on the Phillips screws.  The ranges we use have the Philips screws.

 

31 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

And, how many hospitals, nursing homes, college campuses have noro cases, that are never reported, or never make headlines?

The California Department of Public Health does require reporting of "outbreaks."  My girlfriend's family operates care homes and one of their homes were subject to closure because of a Noro outbreak.  It cost them a pretty penny because all residents had to be taken to a different facility until the evacuated home could be scrubbed clean and the residents could be safely returned.  According the article below, between 02/01/23 and 03/28/23 there were at least 25 confirmed Noro outbreaks in California, and the said facility was the epicenter of one during this time frame.  I guess California is the outlier in respect to reporting.

https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/OPA/Pages/CAHAN/Elevated-Norovirus-Activity-in-California-.aspx#:~:text=Since February 1%2C 2023%2C at,which required closure for control.

 

[chengkp75]

3 hours ago, SCX22 said:

Negative on the Phillips screws.  The ranges we use have the Philips screws.

They are actually sold as "USPH screws", and have hex heads with a rounded edge washer built in, and no recess of the center of the head like most hex head screws have.