Saga Rose Greenland Voyager August 2007

[Saga Ruby]

[quote name='Conte Di Savoia']HAL's [I]Rotterdam[/I] has returned to Rotterdam after her multimillion dollar refurbishment. [URL="http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb213/Maasdam1993/tn_100_0745.jpg"]This [/URL]picture has appeared on another website. She looks glorious in her original livery.[/quote]

Gee whiz, that ship looks quite similar to the one on which I sailed in the 80s. Why doesn't this Rotterdam look like the apartment barge I saw in Flaam, Norway and why has it been refurbished?

I like your snazzy new avatar. Does that have anything to do with the original [I]Conte di Savoia[/I]?

Ruby

[Conte Di Savoia]

[quote name='Saga Ruby']Gee whiz, that ship looks quite similar to the one on which I sailed in the 80s. Why doesn't this Rotterdam look like the apartment barge I saw in Flaam, Norway and why has it been refurbished?

I like your snazzy new avatar. Does that have anything to do with the original [I]Conte di Savoia[/I]?

Ruby[/QUOTE]

This isn't the [i]Rotterdam[/i] which you saw in Flaam; this is [i]Rotterdam[/i] which entered service in 1959. The chronology of its refurbishment for use as a hotel and business center can be found [url=http://www.ssrotterdam.net/] here[/url]. It has had many ups and downs over the last four years including asbestos issues, a fire and theft of artwork, however, the worst is now behind as it has now reached its new (old) home in Rotterdam. I hope it is more successful than [i]Queen Mary[/i] has been in Long Beach.

The "new" avatar is very much part of the original [i]Conte di Savoia[/i]. That ship's interior was largely the work of the designer Gustavo Pulitzer Finali who so controlled the ambiance of the ship, that he even designed the ship's logo which is the avatar I'm currently using.

[Druke I]

You asked what other 65,000 tonners I've sailed on.

None!

Closest in size:

Sun Princess, 77,000GRT
Celebrity Mercury, 77,000GRT
Regal Princess, 69,000GRT, now P&O (Aus) Pacific Dawn
Westerdam, 57,000GRT, now Costa Europa
Norwegian Dream, 50,000GRT

I still think Marina at 65,000GRT will be a handy size.

[Kapricorn]

[quote name='Conte Di Savoia']HAL's [I]Rotterdam[/I] has returned to Rotterdam after her multimillion dollar refurbishment. [URL="http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb213/Maasdam1993/tn_100_0745.jpg"]This [/URL]picture has appeared on another website. She looks glorious in her original livery.[/quote]

Yes, indeed, [I]Rotterdam[/I] looks really splendid in her original colours. She looked just as she was back in 1959, minus lifeboats.

When I was on [I]Rotterdam's[/I] 1989 17-day Panama Canal cruise from Vancouver to Miami, I was in cabin #019, which is not on the original passenger deck plans. It was on the deck behind or below the bridge, along the topmost row of lifeboats. I was told that that cabin was originally an officer's cabin which, along with the rest on that deck, were converted into passenger accommodations. I had two square windows with a view of a lifeboat a bit off to the side, but I appreciated the natural light shining into the cabin.

Donald.

[Saga Ruby]

[B]Michael[/B] - I smiled at your note about the square footage of cabins on [I]Prinsendam[/I] over on the HAL board. The subject was whether to book 181 s.f. or 191 s.f., much discussion, then you calmly noted that the footprint of a bathtub is about 10 s.f so there is virtually no difference between the two choices. I never even thought about that factoid - cool beans!

[B]Donald[/B] - It would be grand to mention that one were residing in cabin 019. It sounds like the penthouse. On a personal note, it might be said that I have, on the occasion, been in a first officer's cabin and, if that were true, one might mention that it was tight quarters in there.

Was "your" [I]Rotterdam[/I] numbered? I'm struggling to remember my time onboard in the 80s; I don't remember the roman numeral, if there were one. It's like [I]Fairsky[/I] and [I]Fairsea[/I], Royal Viking's [I]Star[/I], [I]Sun, Sea[/I], and [I]Sun[/I] - I never could keep them straight.

Ruby

[Druke I]

Reference the footprint of a bathtub - to me my answer was not obtuse at all. As Jack Webb, playing Sgt. Joe Friday, used to say: "Just the facts, ma'am."

Odd how people don't consider what I think so obvious.

And Ruby, you never did respond to my answer re 65,000GRT ships.

[Kapricorn]

[quote name='Saga Ruby'][B]Donald[/B] - It would be grand to mention that one were residing in cabin 019. It sounds like the penthouse. On a personal note, it might be said that I have, on the occasion, been in a first officer's cabin and, if that were true, one might mention that it was tight quarters in there.

Was "your" [I]Rotterdam[/I] numbered? I'm struggling to remember my time onboard in the 80s[/quote]

Cabin 019 was quite comfortable, with a nice-sized bathroom. I've attached three photographs which I took in that cabin. You can see screws attached to one side of the window - I suppose that the window could be opened, though I never tried to do so.

You and I were on the same [I]Rotterdam[/I] in the 1980s. There was no number attached to her name, so I have no idea which number she was.

Donald.

[dougnewmanatsea]

[quote name='Kapricorn']You and I were on the same [I]Rotterdam[/I] in the 1980s. There was no number attached to her name, so I have no idea which number she was.[/quote]Thanks for the photos - that is definitely an interesting cabin. I am not surprised to hear it was originally an officer's cabin as the furnishings are a little different from the typical passenger cabin on ROTTERDAM.

Anyway, this ship is the fifth ROTTERDAM and was flagship of the fleet from 1959 to 1997. She is the longest-serving HAL passenger ship and the longest-serving flagship of the fleet, and the largest passenger ship ever built in the Netherlands. She is rather unique in that she is named after the city where she was built, which was also her home port and the home city of her owner.

The current ROTTERDAM entered service in 1997 right after the last one retired and she is the sixth ship to bear the name. She has been the flagship of HAL for eleven years now and for eight years (since 2000) she has shared that honor with her sister ship AMSTERDAM.

HAL did refer to the current ship as ROTTERDAM VI while she was being built, purely to differentiate her from the previous vessel, which was still in the fleet, but a numeral has never been an official part of the name of one of HAL's ships.

[url=http://www.vdleek.nl/Rtd/6Rtd/Ships.html]Here[/url] is a page with a good brief overview of the six HAL ships called ROTTERDAM. As you can see, for most of its history HAL has had a ship in this fleet with that name, and the original ROTTERDAM was HAL's very first ship. Since then most of the ships that have been flagship of the line have been called ROTTERDAM, and evern ship called ROTTERDAM has been the flagship when she debuted. Every time the flagship has been called something other than ROTTERDAM, it is because there was already a ship in the fleet with that name that would continue operating alongside the new flagship (e.g. with STATENDAM in 1929 and NIEUW AMSTERDAM in 1938, both of which operated alongside the fourth ROTTERDAM and each other until 1940). The name also has special significance because Rotterdam is the birthplace and spiritual home of HAL (even though its head office is now in Seattle). The company's first route was from Rotterdam to New York and it remained its most prestigious service until it finally ended in 1971 after 98 years. Most of the other liner services operated by HAL over its history also originated in Rotterdam. It is the only name that has been used by HAL six times; the runner-ups are STATENDAM and MAASDAM, of which the current ships (built 1993 and 1994 respectively) are the fifth. Of the 14 ships now in the HAL fleet, only OOSTERDAM and EURODAM have names that have never been used by HAL before.

The current ROTTERDAM cruises from Rotterdam every summer so she will meet her forebear quite regularly from now on, although she has sadly already made her last call of 2008, so she the two ships won't meet until May 2009. It is also too bad that she hadn't arrived in Rotterdam by 1 July so she could have been there when the new EURODAM was named by HM Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands. (She would have been had everything gone according to schedule, but restoring an old ship is a lot of work and there were many delays.) The residents of Rotterdam are always very enthusiastic about any event related to HAL (the departure of any HAL ship always draws a crowd, even when it is not a "special occasion"), which many locals still just call "De Lijn" ("The Line") so I am sure there will be some celebration when the two ROTTERDAMs meet in Rotterdam for the first time.

The current ROTTERDAM is of course a very different ship from the previous one (as that ship was from the four that came her) but she is a fine ship and a worthy inheritor of one of the most storied names in maritime history. Inside she has some decor and public room names inspired by her predecessor and a lot of artwork, models and other memorabilia celebrating all the other ROTTERDAMs and the history of HAL in general. My favorite piece is probably a large Delft tile work that you can see on the page I linked above, which celebrates 125 years of Holland America Line (1873-1998) and depicts all six ROTTERDAMs along with the three house flags that were used by HAL in that period (the current one, the fourth, was introduced when the current AMSTERDAM joined the fleet in 2000). Even though she is a modern ship and has all the latest conveniences there are enough traditional touches to remind you that she is the flagship of one of the most historic shipping lines in the world and she has that special feeling that the Dutch call [i]gezelligheid[/i] (like the German [i]gemütlichkeit[/i]) that is usually translated as "coziness" but means so much more - the feeling of being totally comfortable and at home that so many of us feel on any HAL ship, wherever in the world.

[Conte Di Savoia]

[quote name='dougnewmanatsea']
Anyway, this ship is the fifth ROTTERDAM and was flagship of the fleet from 1959 to 1997. [/QUOTE]

The concept of "flagship" seems to have largely disappeared from the cruise industry vocabulary. [i]Rotterdam/Amsterdam[/i] and [i]Queen Mary 2[/i] have been designated flagships but what other lines continue this tradition? What is the flagship for Carnival, Celebrity, Princess or Royal Caribbean? Does today's cruising passenger know what a flagship is or even care? The flagship was often the largest, newest or most expensive ship in the fleet, the one commanded by the most senior captain. I suppose that most lines see no marketing advantage to singling out one ship as their best. It might discourage some passengers from booking on the other ships of their very sizeable fleets.

[Druke I]

The late great Royal Princess (now P&O's Artemis) was the flagship of the Princess fleet.

I am not sure whether or not they designated another ship as flagship after Royal Princess left the fleet.

Princess does designate the Senior Captain to be Commodore of the Fleet.

Rotterdam and Amsterdam are certainly not the largest nor the newest in the Holland America fleet, but the are both designated flagship.

[Kapricorn]

[quote name='dougnewmanatsea']... she has that special feeling that the Dutch call [I]gezelligheid[/I] (like the German [I]gemütlichkeit[/I]) that is usually translated as "coziness" but means so much more - the feeling of being totally comfortable and at home that so many of us feel on any HAL ship, wherever in the world.[/quote]

I've noticed this "coziness" on each of my HAL cruises. The public rooms are well-designed, the traffic flow is excellent and shipboard service is superb.

Donald.

[dougnewmanatsea]

[quote name='Conte Di Savoia']The concept of "flagship" seems to have largely disappeared from the cruise industry vocabulary. [I]Rotterdam/Amsterdam[/I] and [I]Queen Mary 2[/I] have been designated flagships but what other lines continue this tradition?[/quote]I think [url=http://www.phoenixreisen.de]Phoenix Reisen[/url] refers to AMADEA (ex ASUKA) as its flagship; before that it was MAXIM GORKIY for many years. And while I'm not sure the actual word (or its German equivalent) is used, EUROPA is certainly the [I]de facto[/I] flagship of the Hapag-Lloyd fleet.

Princess always considered the original ROYAL PRINCESS its flagship but I don't think it bothered to replace her in that capacity. NCL called NORWAY its flagship for many years before she was supplanted by NORWEGIAN SKY but after that Star Cruises took over and I don't think it has mentioned a flagship since. MARCO POLO was considered Orient Lines' flagship when it also had CROWN ODYSSEY (even though she was the smaller and older ship) but of course for most of its history that was a one-ship line.

The little Finnish company [URL="http://www.kristinacruises.fi/?a=etusivu"]Kristina Cruises[/URL] calls KRISTINA REGINA its flagship - not difficult since its other ship, KRISTINA BRAHE, is far smaller and only makes coastal cruises in comparison to the oceangoing KRISTINA REGINA. Now there is a ship that I think would interest a lot of people on this thread - KRISTINA REGINA was built in 1960 but looks like she could easily be even older! (Her original owner was very conservative and had definite ideas about what a ship should look like that I guess probably hadn't changed since the 1930s.) She was originally the Baltic steamer BORE but when she was rebuilt in 1987 as the cruise ship KRISTINA REGINA she got new diesels and today after 48 years in service she is still sailing under the Finnish flag with an all-Finnish crew. I saw her in St. Petersburg in 2005 - what a gloriously nostalgic little vessel! There are excellent exterior photos [url=http://www.aadhoogesteger.nl/cruiseschepen/kr270507pagina1.html]here[/url] and interior photos [url=http://www.aadhoogesteger.nl/cruiseschepen/bezkrreg270507pagina1.html]here[/url] from a call she made to Amsterdam last year... Just look at all that wood! A friend of mine recently visited her in Leith and came back with a glowing report - another friend is sailing her in the Med in October and I eagerly await his impressions. Sadly I am not sure if she will make it through the new SOLAS rules coming into effect in 2010, which will also mark her 50th birthday.

[Druke I]

That Kristina Regina is a nice looking little ship, although I am not wild about the blue/green trim.

Of course I am partial to the ship's name. My middle daughter is a Kristina, and when I was a lad our pet dog was named Victoria Regina, aka Vickie.

I think the naming of the dog was my mother's idea of "digging" (making fun of) my dad, who was a very proper Brit.

[dougnewmanatsea]

I agree, the livery is not terribly attractive... More suitable for a ferry than a classic ship. On the other hand, she looked splendid in [url=http://www.faktaomfartyg.se/bore_1960_bild_1.htm]her original livery[/url].

The company that built her, [URL="http://www.boregroup.com/"]Bore Line[/URL], still exists, but it has not operated passenger ships in almost 30 years.

[Saga Ruby]

[quote name='Druke I']Reference the footprint of a bathtub - to me my answer was not obtuse at all. As Jack Webb, playing Sgt. Joe Friday, used to say: "Just the facts, ma'am."And Ruby, you never did respond to my answer re 65,000GRT ships.[/quote]

Michael, I went back and perused your 65k notes and didn't find a question. Would you please refresh my memory?

AND I'm curious if you know how many different ships upon which you have sailed in your life upon the seas. I have a sneaking suspicion that it is quite a list.

Ruby

[Druke I]

No, I did not ask a question. You asked me about ships I had been on in the 65,000GRT range, and I answered your question. I was just curious if you had any comment (or challenge).

 

I've sailed on 24 different ships (including one river boat and one US Navy Nuke Guided Missile Cruiser), and have completed 38 cruises. (Obviously, I have multiple sailings on some ships.)

[Kapricorn]

I've sailed on 24 different ships (including one river boat and one US Navy Nuke Guided Missile Cruiser), and have completed 38 cruises. (Obviously, I have multiple sailings on some ships.)

 

That is interesting - I've also been on 24 different ships (all passenger ships) and completed 36 cruises. I've been on Mercury nine times.

 

Also, I found this photograph which I took of the rarely-seen space on the top deck of Rotterdam, between the lifeboats and cabin bulkheads (my double windows are second from left). The stairs to the bridge is directly ahead. This space is not a passenger promenade. I found a door to the outside and stepped out to take a quick photograph.

 

Donald.

[Druke I]

You must really like Mercury to have been on her nine times(we've only sailed her once).

 

We had four trips on the former Royal Princess (now Artemis). She is probably my favorite ship, although we are very smitten with the R-class ships, having been on Pacific Princess, Regatta (twice), and Nautica (once with another booked).

[Conte Di Savoia]

Doug

Thanks for posting that site with the pictures of Kristina Regina. All that wood paneling is fantastic! Too bad some designer redecorated some of the public rooms with furniture and carpeting which are not true to the period and ambiance of the ship. I always admired HAL for keeping Rotterdam 1959 true to her midcentury look even if it meant having custom carpets remilled in their original unique design as in the First Class Smoking Room.

[Saga Ruby]

I read your post to Mr. Heller regarding his purchase of Orient Lines and your hopes for continuing an already fine concept. And you got a prompt reply from the Polo Club Administrator assuring you that Mr. Heller will see your comments - wonderful.

 

I find that response quite encouraging that the new Orient Lines will offer a convivial atmosphere and a well-trained crew on the future Orient Lines ships. Congrats for speaking up in a positive, helpful manner and the same to Orient Lines for listening to you.

 

Fingers crossed that you and your shipboard friends will be able to return to those thrilling days of yesterday and that you will again enjoy a fine voyage on a proper ship.

 

Ruby

[franu]

Congrats for speaking up in a positive, helpful manner and the same to Orient Lines for listening to you.

 

Thank you Ruby. I am always second guessing myself and wondering if I did things correctly and appropriately.

 

Unfortunately I was in an automobile accident about 30 years ago where I was left with a head injury. This often leads to impetuous behaviour but I have managed over the years to control myself and improve my concentration too.

 

With the computer I google often and check out various angles. Because of this I wanted to be as certain as possible that I will get what I was promised.

 

I hope that my "tune-up" will be completed and that I will be ready to sail when Orient does.

Fran

[Kapricorn]

You must really like Mercury to have been on her nine times(we've only sailed her once).

 

We had four trips on the former Royal Princess (now Artemis). She is probably my favorite ship, although we are very smitten with the R-class ships, having been on Pacific Princess, Regatta (twice), and Nautica (once with another booked).

 

Yep, Mercury is my home-away-from-home! I've been on Vision of the Seas three times, and Infinity & Norwegian Sky twice. I'm booked on Mercury three more times and Vision OTS two more.

 

Donald.

[Kapricorn]

Here are side-by-side photographs of the great Italian liners Conte di Savoia (left) and Rex (right). I'm curious what are your opinions as to which of these ships has the best profile?

 

Dimensions: Conte di Savoia 860x96ft, Rex 880x97ft

 

 

 

Donald.

[franu]

I'm curious what are your opinions as to which of these ships has the best profile?

To my uneducated eye they look basically the same. Were they built by the same ship designer and yard? The Conte di Savoia looks sleeker and more polished.

Fran

[Kapricorn]

To my uneducated eye they look basically the same. Were they built by the same ship designer and yard? The Conte di Savoia looks sleeker and more polished.

Fran

 

These two liners were built by different shipyards for different lines - Rex in September 1932 for Navigazione Generale Italiana and Conte di Savoia in November 1932 for Lloyd Sabaudo - but these two lines were later merged into one line, Italian Line. You can see that the sterns of these two liners are different - Rex with a counter stern and Conte di Savoia with a cruiser stern.

 

I read somewhere that when Italian Line got Conte di Savoia they wanted to re-name her Dux (after Mussolini aka The Duke). Imagine ... Rex and Dux. However, Mussolini demurred.

 

Donald.