Terminal 5 at Heathrow -- merged discussion

[Globaliser]

Oh, well. That didn't last long. But this time the problem's on BAA's side:-

Fresh baggage woes at Terminal 5

 

Hopes of Heathrow's Terminal 5 operating its first full schedule of flights have been scuppered by a new glitch with the baggage system.

 

Airport operator BAA's computer system which sorts bags before they are loaded onto flights malfunctioned and manual sorting had to be carried out.

 

British Airways cancelled 24 flights to and from Terminal 5 on Saturday due to the latest baggage problems.

 

The terminal suffered baggage problems within hours of opening nine days ago.

 

A spokeswoman described the situation on Saturday as "incredibly disappointing" but said the airline was working with BAA to resolve the situation as quickly as possible.

 

BAA said the problem was entirely its responsibility.

 

...

A post by coxswain elsewhere suggests that the fault was in the reconciliation system, which matches bags to passengers. So there was a safety implication in this failure, which couldn't be ignored.

[TLCOhio]

From Sunday am's Daily Mail in London, here is the headline: "More flight chaos as computers crash on day T5 was finally meant to work perfectly". The story highlights include: "British Airways cancelled 24 flights when a computer system crashed on the day it had hoped to run a 100 per cent service for the first time since it opened a week last Thursday. The latest blow – a breakdown of computers which match passengers and their bags before flights . . . ."

 

But the fault was not BA, it was the airport operator, BAA. Added story details: "the gloves came off as BA sources said it was 'very disappointed' at the latest problem, and an official spokeswoman declared: 'We are urging BAA to resolve these issues as soon as possible.' The computer software failure, which affected more than 1,000 passengers, led to the cancellation of 12 flights in and 12 out. Others were delayed by up to three hours. But last night BAA was forced to take the blame for the first time in a series of disasters which at one stage created a mountain of 28,000 missing bags."

 

The Sunday Guardian summarized: "Heathrow's terminal 5 descended into chaos again yesterday as fresh problems with its controversial baggage system caused flight cancellations and delays on what should have been its first day of normal operation."

 

Things were starting to look better, but now there is this new wrinkle. Plus, with the added losses/costs to BA, it could wipe out the planned bonuses for their employees this quarter. Terry in Ohio

[Globaliser]

Things were starting to look better, but now there is this new wrinkle. Plus, with the added losses/costs to BA, it could wipe out the planned bonuses for their employees this quarter.

Let's add one more thing to that today: It's snowing.

 

Heathrow regulars will know that Heathrow just doesn't do snow. We only get snow about 3-5 days a year, so it's not worth spending the money to keep masses of equipment available at the airport - the money is better spent doing other things that are regularly needed. But when it does snow, it immediately raises the prospect of snarl-ups.

 

The bonus thing is a bit more complex than it might be being reported as. Sometime back in about 2001/2002/2003, the airline's senior management targeted a 10% operating margin over a full year as the financial performance which the airline should strive for. This was part of the post-2001 business review. Those with long memories of the industry will remember that by the beginning of 2001, business travel was already falling off a cliff. The events of September 2001 simply put the final nail into the coffin of the previous airline industry boom, even though it had been certified dead long before that month. BA had, like too many other airlines, expanded too fast and too far, chasing business that was not profitable just because it was seen to be better to be bigger. The business review was very painful, but it has generally set a good path for the business and done a good job.

 

The 10% target was, when reached, going to trigger a substantial bonus for everyone in the airline. And despite all the things that have happened in the last year, the airline was still on course to reach that as of the beginning of March.

 

It will be a sweet irony to see all those lazy/incompetent middle managers get their come-uppance by losing their bonuses if BA fails to reach 10% in the year ending 31 March 2008 because of the T5 fiasco. There will also be some schadenfreude to be enjoyed by those of us who (like me) have always been sceptical about the 10% target, because it was a purely arbitrary figure plucked out of the air as a nice round number but led to a lot of unnecessary and silly little bad things to be done (as well as many big good things) to try to reach the figure, simply because every little helped.

 

But I feel really sorry for the much bigger number of ordinary employees (including a friend and more acquaintances) who have taken the pain and may now miss out on the reward. And it is particularly sad because BA is unlikely to reach 10% in the current year (y/e 31 March 2009) because of the worldwide economic slowdown. If it's missed in the y/e 31 March 2008, BA will have missed the boat in more ways than one.

[TLCOhio]

THANKS for the added details! Snow in April? That's rare, especially for London. Within the last 30 minutes, BBC just posted this info/news: "BA said 31 flights to the terminal and 31 from it were cancelled, with more delays possible due to snow. It said air traffic control had reduced the frequency of runway traffic."

 

I'm glad that by late July and early August that we won't have to worry about snow at Heathrow while going into England for time there, departing from Dover and then after coming back from our Baltics cruise. This is starting to read like a soap opera with so many different story lines and twists. Hope they get it ALL solved soon. What's left that hasn't happened? NBC's Today Show was just hitting on how it is going to be a long, busy, confused, costly summer for air travel. Heathrow and BA need to get it fixed and smooth or the summer crunch of people (and weather problems, like rain and storms) will create another, more and/or bigger messes.

 

Terry in Ohio

[coxswain]

More than a 185 flights have been cancelled at Heathrow's Terminal 5 after snow added to disruption caused by earlier baggage-handling problems.

 

Of the flights cancelled to and from T5, 12 were due to technical problems with the baggage system.

 

 

 

 

 

jj.....

[WhenIsOurNextCruise]

I have a question that no one at BA was willing to answer. AFTER we booked our flight from Houston, non stop, business class, about 6 months ahead of time we found out we can't get our seat assignments until 24 hours prior to the flight. That really doesn't make much sense to me and wonder if anyone knows why.

[TLCOhio]

I have a question that no one at BA was willing to answer. AFTER we booked our flight from Houston, non stop, business class, about 6 months ahead of time we found out we can't get our seat assignments until 24 hours prior to the flight. That really doesn't make much sense to me and wonder if anyone knows why.

 

I have the same frustration. AGREE!! What I was told is that by waiting till closer to departure time for seat assignment is that those who reserved but who are not making this flight do not clog up the system. They don't have to pull out the "no-shows" and assign those seat later within a half hour or so of actual departure time. I can see that logic. It solves one problem, but it doesn't treat very well a large group of the passenger going on that flight. For those in the higher priced ticket and best flyer categories or those with infants or special physical needs, you can book your seat earlier. Those with kids ages 2-11 can book seats three days ahead. For all others, they push doing that booking via the website. I would do it differently, but that's a little on why as I was told. THANKS! Terry in Ohio

[Globaliser]

AFTER we booked our flight from Houston, non stop, business class, about 6 months ahead of time we found out we can't get our seat assignments until 24 hours prior to the flight. That really doesn't make much sense to me and wonder if anyone knows why.

This is BA policy, and has been for some time.

 

There was a period when BA changed to permitting rather more seat pre-allocation, but it didn't make things any better. There were still the same arguments at check-in, the same number of staff being threatened and abused, the same number of families being split up and causing gate staff and cabin crew to scurry around trying to move passengers at the last minute - often delaying departures while they tried to do so.

 

So BA has gone back to a system which is supposed to give most leisure passengers a reasonably equal and fair crack of the whip at the time that check-in opens, and has the collateral benefit of encouraging everyone to check-in as early as possible.

 

One of the things that passengers sometimes don't see is the way in which airlines take bookings. It's not like selling theatre tickets, and no major airline would work well if it did adopt that sort of model. Booking will have opened for your flight about 355 days before departure date. By the time the aircraft pushes back from the gate, on average each seat will have been booked about four times - and cancelled more than three times. The aircraft will still go out only about 90% full, with a significant number - perhaps dozens - of booked passengers having simply failed to show up for check-in (and I've been guilty of that myself).

 

In an industry that works like that, no method of allocating seats is going to satisfy everyone. A simple first-come first-served system has many disadvantages: If you allow every person to pre-allocate a seat at the time of booking, you can see how the seat map will rapidly descend into fragmented chaos as those bookings cancel - and there are many CC posts complaining about precisely this, even from people who have booked quite early. In addition, the airline's most valuable customers tend to book late - most business bookings are taken in the last two weeks before the date of the flight - and it would not do to give your best customers the worst choice of seats.

 

So what BA has decided to do is to allow pre-allocation of seats at the time of booking to "best customers" and passengers with special needs. Even then, there are distinctions - the top tier of frequent flyers have access to the very best seats, which are not available to others who qualify for pre-allocation at time of booking. Three days out, families, unaccompanied minors and specialised groups have seats allocated for them - although they don't get to choose at this point, but they can change their seats if they want to at check-in.

 

Everyone else gets to pick their seat when they check-in - at which point the airline has a reasonable assurance that the passenger actually intends to travel and use that seat. As TLCOhio says, amongst other things it stops the no-shows blocking out good seats until 30 minutes before departure, and then those seats being given out at random to others who happen to turn up late.

 

I don't personally agree with every part of this policy, and there are some irritating wrinkles and anomalies which are a feature of the drive to make it very simple and easy to implement.

 

But having recently had to buy a full-fare ticket even though it was for leisure travel, the "best customer" approach to those tickets was one which would have seemed fair to me if I'd had to call on it. I'd booked on Monday to travel on Thursday, and was able to pick a good seat; two hours before the flight on Thursday, I had to cancel the booking and change it to the same sort of time on Friday, and I was able to pick a good seat for that flight at the time of the change. When I had forked out $3,000 for an economy class ticket, it seems fair to me that I should be able to do this, rather than have to take what is left after all the $800 passengers have pre-allocated their seats months in advance.

 

And I think the "best customer" approach to higher-tier frequent flyers is probably self-explanatory.

[handfordr]

With most of the American airlines like American seemingly being able to cope quite happily with leisure travellers allocating themselves seats 9 months in advance I don't really see the logistical reason why BA cannot. I think its a case of won't rather than can't.

Certainly when I fly on leisure pre-allocation of seats is a major reason why I don't normally fly with BA long haul. Would seem to be a pure hard nosed business decision by BA to focus on the business and full fare economy passenger which there business depends - this is fair enough, but personally as a result I'll normally take my custom elsewhere which I guess they don't loose to much sleep over.

 

One option for all long haul airlines is to follow the lead of the low cost carriers. I booked a seat on BMI Baby yesterday and it was £3 to select my seat at time of booking or £8 if I wanted one of the seats with lots of leg room by the exits or front rather than join the free for all for boarding.

 

I didn't bite on this gracious offer but I think I might bite on a long haul carrier that offered a part of the cabin in economy guaranteed to be free of kids under 12 for a small supplement.

[WhenIsOurNextCruise]

Globalizer and Terry,

Thanks for your replies. Never having flown BA, I guess I was assuming it was just business class that didn't get pre-assigned - but it appears it is the entire airplane! I can certainly see the issue of people rearranging flights and seats being taken, then available, then taken. But I sure it is all managed by a computer and other airlines assign seats and everything works out just fine.

 

I still kind of resent that they have a whole big bundle of my money for a long period of time and I don't know if I am sitting next to my husband for my first flight abroad. Not that the world will end if we don't sit together, but it would be nice. I was willing to commit to them, seems like they could return the gesture. Oh well, in the overall scheme of things, it is a small thing and we aren't supposed to sweat the small stuff!

 

Again, thanks for your explanations.

[Globaliser]

With most of the American airlines like American seemingly being able to cope quite happily with leisure travellers allocating themselves seats 9 months in advance I don't really see the logistical reason why BA cannot. I think its a case of won't rather than can't.

...

One option for all long haul airlines is to follow the lead of the low cost carriers. I booked a seat on BMI Baby yesterday and it was £3 to select my seat at time of booking or £8 if I wanted one of the seats with lots of leg room by the exits or front rather than join the free for all for boarding.

But I sure it is all managed by a computer and other airlines assign seats and everything works out just fine.

It's certainly a case of deliberately won't rather than can't, as BA have tried various different experiments over the years. And none have been particularly satisfactory - I've lived through them all.

 

But the US carriers don't "cope quite happily", and things do not always work out "just fine". These carriers do what they do because their market expects them to. However, you only need to read CC posts to see how badly the US system can go wrong, even when people are booking 6-9 months ahead.

 

Plus the general advice here seems to be to check your reservations every day to see whether there's been an aircraft or schedule change that means that your pre-allocations have been changed or deleted. And every time that happens, you have to go and re-do your seat allocations. I've sometimes got 10 or more reservations on the go at the same time. No, thank you - I simply haven't got the time for that much work!

 

The BA system isn't perfect either, but from experience I can confidently say that it works well if you are able to get to a computer to check in online early in the check-in cycle. I'm often helping friends to check in when they have not got pre-allocated seats, and if you are quick off the mark there are plenty of decent seats. However, it is definitely much less good if for some reason you are not able to get to a computer until later in the check-in cycle.

 

But please, please - no "extra fee" arrangements. Aagh!

I still kind of resent that they have a whole big bundle of my money for a long period of time and I don't know if I am sitting next to my husband for my first flight abroad. Not that the world will end if we don't sit together, but it would be nice. I was willing to commit to them, seems like they could return the gesture. Oh well, in the overall scheme of things, it is a small thing and we aren't supposed to sweat the small stuff!

Don't worry, you are extremely unlikely to get separated from your husband. And if you can check-in early in the check-in cycle, you will have no problems at all.

[WhenIsOurNextCruise]

It's certainly a case of deliberately won't rather than can't, as BA have tried various different experiments over the years. And none have been particularly satisfactory - I've lived through them all.

 

But the US carriers don't "cope quite happily", and things do not always work out "just fine". These carriers do what they do because their market expects them to. However, you only need to read CC posts to see how badly the US system can go wrong, even when people are booking 6-9 months ahead.

 

Plus the general advice here seems to be to check your reservations every day to see whether there's been an aircraft or schedule change that means that your pre-allocations have been changed or deleted. And every time that happens, you have to go and re-do your seat allocations. I've sometimes got 10 or more reservations on the go at the same time. No, thank you - I simply haven't got the time for that much work!

 

The BA system isn't perfect either, but from experience I can confidently say that it works well if you are able to get to a computer to check in online early in the check-in cycle. I'm often helping friends to check in when they have not got pre-allocated seats, and if you are quick off the mark there are plenty of decent seats. However, it is definitely much less good if for some reason you are not able to get to a computer until later in the check-in cycle.

 

But please, please - no "extra fee" arrangements. Aagh!Don't worry, you are extremely unlikely to get separated from your husband. And if you can check-in early in the check-in cycle, you will have no problems at all.

 

Thanks for all the details you provide everyone who asks. I'm sure it will work out fine!

[TLCOhio]

Thanks for all the details you provide everyone who asks. I'm sure it will work out fine!

 

We have done about six flights on BA and we have been very impressed with their staff and personal service on the plane. Our last trip was in 2006 into Athens and from Istanbul back to Heathrow. The staff not only says they are happy to help, but they really gave that "spirit" of meaning it and enjoying being of help. Hope that level of service continues on Aug. 5 from Stockholm to Heathrow Terminal 5. Plus the luggage getting transfered properly to our AA flight home. Terry in Ohio

[Globaliser]

Back to the baggage problems at T5:

 

For anyone who's flying to/from/via Terminal 5 in the near future, I've just been having a look at flight performance for yesterday and today.

 

Things look like they've settled down - at least at the moment. Although I didn't look at every flight, let alone analyse all of them, I could only spot one cancellation today, which could just have been the normal mechanical problem or whatever. Otherwise, punctuality at T5 seems to be fine. And the airline has now taken the "We're sorry" banner off the home page.

 

So with a bit of luck, things are currently working. The next big test will be on 30 April, when the next wave of moves takes place.

 

Having said all that, the chaos at American Airlines does put this some perspective: AA has had to cancel about 2,400 flights over just three days!

[Globaliser]

For anyone who's flying to/from/via Terminal 5 in the near future, I've just been having a look at flight performance for yesterday and today.

 

Things look like they've settled down - at least at the moment. Although I didn't look at every flight, let alone analyse all of them, I could only spot one cancellation today, which could just have been the normal mechanical problem or whatever. Otherwise, punctuality at T5 seems to be fine. And the airline has now taken the "We're sorry" banner off the home page.

 

So with a bit of luck, things are currently working. The next big test will be on 30 April, when the next wave of moves takes place.

 

Having said all that, the chaos at American Airlines does put this some perspective: AA has had to cancel about 2,400 flights over just three days!

[TLCOhio]

Good news. Progress is happening. From reading a Wall Street Journal story just a few minutes ago, the main AA flight impact was on the MD-80 planes, most in and out of Chicago and DFW. It doesn't appear to have impacted any of the international flights. Of course, if you couldn't get to Chicago or DFW, it is hard to make a connection for your Boeing 777 flight to London, Paris, etc.

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

[coxswain]

British Airways has delayed moving most of its long-haul flights to Heathrow's new Terminal 5 until June.

 

"It is only sensible to ensure that Terminal 5 is operating consistently at a high standard before the move begins," said BA boss Willie Walsh.

 

Almost all of BA's long-haul flights were supposed to switch from Terminal 4 to Terminal 5 on 30 April.

 

 

 

 

 

jj.....

[coxswain]

British Airways has delayed moving most of its long-haul flights to Heathrow's new Terminal 5 until June.

 

"It is only sensible to ensure that Terminal 5 is operating consistently at a high standard before the move begins," said BA boss Willie Walsh.

 

Almost all of BA's long-haul flights were supposed to switch from Terminal 4 to Terminal 5 on 30 April.

 

 

 

 

 

jj.....

[Globaliser]

The next big test will be on 30 April, when the next wave of moves takes place.

As coxswain says, British Airways has announced today that the moves which were to have taken place on 30 April have now been postponed until some time in June. The earliest date on which these routes will move is 5 June, but the exact date has not yet been finalised.

 

Until then, all flights will remain at the terminals at which they currently are.

 

The moves that were to have taken place were that all remaining flights at T4 would move to T5, except Singapore, Bangkok and Sydney which are remaining at T4 until January 2009.

[Globaliser]

The next big test will be on 30 April, when the next wave of moves takes place.

As coxswain says, British Airways has announced today that the moves which were to have taken place on 30 April have now been postponed until some time in June. The earliest date on which these routes will move is 5 June, but the exact date has not yet been finalised.

 

Until then, all flights will remain at the terminals at which they currently are.

 

The moves that were to have taken place were that all remaining flights at T4 would move to T5, except Singapore, Bangkok and Sydney which are remaining at T4 until January 2009.

[skyship]

Terminal 5

Flew in & out of terminal 5 April 10

brilliant ,congradulations to all concerned,

[TLCOhio]

It's kind of good news, but for those of us going through Heathrow in later July and early August, those moves will still need to be made. Hopefully they are better prepared the next time.

 

In the U.S., as per Forbes today, here are some details on the fourth U.S. airline to hit the wall. Frontier services mainly the western states. Not an easy time to be in the airline business. Story highlight: "Despite high traffic and strong March sales Frontier Airlines is joining the crowd of airlines filing for bankruptcy. This time, however, consumer demand and high oil prices are not part of the equation. On Friday Frontier Airlines, announced it filed for Chapter 11 in the U.S. Bankruptcy Court in New York. Frontier is just the latest in an increasingly long line of airlines to see its fortunes decline during the current economic downturn, although the particulars of its case are unique. Frontier shares plummeted 72.0%, or $1.13, to 44 cents in midday trading Friday." Frontier’s lack of liquidity was reason involving its principal credit card processor. Wells Fargo has Frontier’s largest general unsecured claim and informed the airline it will significantly increase its "holdback" of receipts and proceeds from ticket sales starting April 11, limiting the airline's liquidity. Frontier is closing up, but re-organizing because of this credit problem. Terry in Ohio

[TLCOhio]

Terminal 5

Flew in & out of terminal 5 April 10

brilliant ,congradulations to all concerned,

 

THANKS! Good news. Beside no problems, what did you like the most? Any special highlights? Terry in Ohio

[cruisegal101]

Double post

[cruisegal101]

Terminal 5

Flew in & out of terminal 5 April 10

brilliant ,congradulations to all concerned,

 

Did they allow you to check your baggage? If so, did it arrive with you?