Just finished Disney Dream. Service Dogs !

Is it just me or has everyone caught on to the fact that you can buy a service dog vest on eBay and then take you family pet on the cruise ship! Its getting ridiculous. Its time that congress fixed the loophole in the ADA rules They should require service dogs to have a letter from a doctor stating the person needs the dog. Also a letter from an authorized service dog training company that your dog has indeed been certified as a real service dog. Cruise ships could then require these two documents before a dog can enter the ship. Its a shame so many people from the "its all about me" generation are taking advantage of ADA.

I agree, but cruise lines are just too scared to address the issue.

Even when it is obvious the dog is a pet or even an emotional support animal that is not covered under the ADA.

Unfortunately I think it will take someone being attacked or bitten and a law suit for cruise lines to really step up and stop this abuse once the animal displays characteristics or behavior that is not found in real true service dogs, like being fed at the dining table, receiving itself not in its designated area, constant barking etc.

There is a recent thread on the Ask a Question board discussing it, and Chief perfectly describes what cruise lines have to do to accommodate service animals under the ADA, why support animals are not covered, and the legislation that governs cruise ships.

ex techie

Sorry it was on the Royal board.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2358780&highlight=dog

And here is one of his posts regarding the subject:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=50049819&postcount=29

ex techie

I agree, but cruise lines are just too scared to address the issue.

Even when it is obvious the dog is a pet or even an emotional support animal that is not covered under the ADA.

 

Unfortunately I think it will take someone being attacked or bitten and a law suit for cruise lines to really step up and stop this abuse once the animal displays characteristics or behavior that is not found in real true service dogs, like being fed at the dining table, receiving itself not in its designated area, constant barking etc.

 

There is a recent thread on the Ask a Question board discussing it, and Chief perfectly describes what cruise lines have to do to accommodate service animals under the ADA, why support animals are not covered, and the legislation that governs cruise ships.

 

ex techie

It must start with congress closing the loophole and creating some concrete rules for an animal to be a "service animal" Cruise ships hands are tied right now.

Exactly. Without any certification process for determining a true 'Service Dog' (and even then, like disabled parking there will always be docs willing to sign a form for a copay), cruise lines can't risk the exposure of making their own determination (and its not just cruise lines, hotels, airlines, etc all have the same issue)

It must start with congress closing the loophole and creating some concrete rules for an animal to be a "service animal" Cruise ships hands are tied right now.

Under the current privacy laws, cruise lines cannot ask for any proof. They basically have to accept the word of the person bringing the dog.

Similarly, in 2009 DCL required a doc's signature that a person needed an HA cabin. They would then keep it in their computer system in a way that you didn't need to present it every time. Now there is no documentation or proof required. Why does it matter? Because not every disability is obvious. People needing these few cabins often have to book years in advance to get one. I would be very angry to find that my family was unable to cruise on a desired voyage because a person or persons who did not need such a cabin had one (I've read on boards that they are great because they have room for storing scuba gear!)

Yes, I agree that the loopholes allowing jerks to get away with such violations need to be closed.

There are concrete rules to define a service animal and how it should behave.

The loophole that needs to be closed is not being able to ask for validation of training, and a governmental system of registration that must be produced.

This is the best explanation!

Actually, Specter v. NCL does state that "nondiscrimination and accommodation requirements do not apply if disabled individuals would pose “a significant risk to the health or safety of others that cannot be eliminated by a modification of policies, practices, or procedures."" So the use of a service animal does not completely trump anyone else's rights to good health (i.e. no reaction to an allergy), because the possibility of an allergen from the dog getting into the a/c system and affecting the entire ship could not be eliminated by a modification of practices, policies, or procedures, or the introduction of special HEPA air filters for the entire a/c system would not be considered "reasonable".

 

As to your hypothetical dog that needs to sit on a chair to perform their service, that would need to be discussed with the cruise line in advance, so that the seating and table area could be sanitized after the dog used the area, both for sanitation reasons and allergens.

 

Lets face it, the real reason this whole discussion is happening is because businesses don't want the bad PR or the legal expense of an ADA case, whether the case has any merit or not. In most cases, the business will be considered to have the deeper pockets and will find no relief from legal costs even for cases with no merit. And the plaintiff's lawyers don't get paid unless the plaintiff wins, so the plaintiff is free of all consequences for filing suit.

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=50070394&postcount=193

And for the record I agree.

ex techie

My current role as mother of a daughter with a disability means that I'm often made aware of ADA violations. Most businesses are not really familiar with the laws (at least those individuals on the front lines of service are not) and thus are so concerned about avoiding a violation that they let people get away with almost anything.

I'm sure there are militant people with disabilities who object to having to disclose any information; this does not apply to the vast majority of persons needing special assistance be it a dog, special equipment, etc. Similarly, most businesses go above and beyond the expected to provide for individuals with those needs.

Requiring appropriate documentation of training and need is totally reasonable. Privacy can be maintained by not requiring disclosure of the reason for the need, only that one does exist.

Not entirely true..

Here's the actual reg as it applies to cruise ships from the DoT - my emphasis in bold.. ""You must accept the following as evidence that an animal is a service animal: Identification cards, other written documentation, presence of harnesses, tags, and/or the credible verbal assurances of a passenger with a disability using the animal."[8]"

Yep. That's a horridly written rule, but according to it all I need is a tag, ID card or a credible verbal assurance and the line MUST accept it. And...since there are no standards for ID cards, etc I can just print one out on my computer...

Emotional support animals are a little less clear, as of the most recent ruleset I can find. The ships are not required to accept them, but are recommended to.

It's worth noting that on May 2, 2016 there was a DOT committee formed to, among other things, discuss modifications to the definition of the term service animals. There are issues regarding conflict between the ADA and the Air Carrier Access Act (which has been used for a model for cruise ship rules) so hopefully some clarity might come of this, but it will still take an act of congress to make falsifying a cert a penalty offense for example.

My current role as mother of a daughter with a disability means that I'm often made aware of ADA violations. Most businesses are not really familiar with the laws (at least those individuals on the front lines of service are not) and thus are so concerned about avoiding a violation that they let people get away with almost anything.

 

I'm sure there are militant people with disabilities who object to having to disclose any information; this does not apply to the vast majority of persons needing special assistance be it a dog' date=' special equipment, etc. Similarly, most businesses go above and beyond the expected to provide for individuals with those needs.

 

Requiring appropriate documentation of training and need is totally reasonable. Privacy can be maintained by not requiring disclosure of the reason for the need, only that one does exist.[/quote']

Not entirely true..

 

Here's the actual reg as it applies to cruise ships from the DoT - my emphasis in bold.. ""You must accept the following as evidence that an animal is a service animal: Identification cards, other written documentation, presence of harnesses, tags, and/or the credible verbal assurances of a passenger with a disability using the animal."[8]"

 

Yep. That's a horridly written rule, but according to it all I need is a tag, ID card or a credible verbal assurance and the line MUST accept it. And...since there are no standards for ID cards, etc I can just print one out on my computer...

 

Emotional support animals are a little less clear, as of the most recent ruleset I can find. The ships are not required to accept them, but are recommended to.

 

It's worth noting that on May 2, 2016 there was a DOT committee formed to, among other things, discuss modifications to the definition of the term service animals. There are issues regarding conflict between the ADA and the Air Carrier Access Act (which has been used for a model for cruise ship rules) so hopefully some clarity might come of this, but it will still take an act of congress to make falsifying a cert a penalty offense for example.

Are you saying this is wrong?

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

Q8. Do service animals have to wear a vest or patch or special harness identifying them as service animals?

A. No. The ADA does not require service animals to wear a vest, ID tag, or specific harness.

And here is the biggest problem and loophole:

Q5. Does the ADA require service animals to be professionally trained?

A. No. People with disabilities have the right to train the dog themselves and are not required to use a professional service dog training program.

Please state where the US DOT standards for Air Travel have been used to determine how the ADA should be applied to cruise ship travel for non flagged foreign vessels that the US government has limited powers to enforce!

It is quite simple then. For travel outside of US territory, visiting a non US territory, or for internal travel, a pet passport system is set up with a minimal administration fee, to allow those that have trained and certified service animals to travel by air or by ship.

The ADA is quite clear when it says:

Q3. Are emotional support, therapy, comfort, or companion animals considered service animals under the ADA?

A. No. These terms are used to describe animals that provide comfort just by being with a person. Because they have not been trained to perform a specific job or task, they do not qualify as service animals under the ADA. However, some State or local governments have laws that allow people to take emotional support animals into public places. You may check with your State and local government agencies to find out about these laws.

And non reasonable ADA laws do not apply on foreign flagged ships.

So the cruise line (NCL is within it's rights to deny except for Pride of America).

ex techie

It gets further complicated--the definition of a "service animal" is that it must perform at least 2 services for the owner. This can be a simple as picking up a dropped set of keys or other item. If you can't bend over, this can be a valuable service, but most professionally trained animals do far more than this. While it is legal to ask what the dog does for the owner/handler, it is not legal to ask why the dog is needed. (as in what condition do you have that requires the dog). This may seem like a subtle difference, but the focus must be on the dog, not the person. It allows a response like "He detects a change in my metabolism" rather than "I have X disease."

In some cases, the user does not own professionally trained service animals. Some training organizations retain ownership of the animals while in service. This is designed to protect the user in the event that the dog bites or misbehaves causing injury or property damage while at the same time emphasizing that if there is a problem, the agency stands behind their training. Basically they are saying 'these things won't happen, and if they somehow do, it is our fault." It also allows the user to return the animal at the end of its service lifetime without the worry of what to do with it--the agency then rehomes it as a pet. Note the word "Some." Other agencies give or sell the dogs to the user and have no ongoing responsibility for them.

Emotional support animals do not have the same legal support as service animals under the ADA.

Please note, I am a strong supporter of service animals and my daughter has researched getting one. She has decided against it at this point as they are in very short supply for her issues and she is concerned that "someone might need it more" than she does.

This issue is everywhere...we live in a 55+ no pets community. You have to sign an agreement not to have pets, but people manage somehow....the "emotional comfort" idea is big, and hard to fight because privacy rights are involved. I know a couple of folks who truly need this emotional support, but others take advantage. I wish we would just all be sensible. Some people really need a service animal, some feel entitled to whatever they want.

No, I am saying its exactly right, a verbal assertion is sufficient, tho tags, etc are also sufficient. Stupid.

And the assertion comes from court cases wherein since title III of the ADA is vague on some matters, the courts and the DOT have used definitions and policies in the ACAA in lieu of missing standards. It's not an equal translation, but its the closest they have in law.

And..since this seems to be slipping by you. THERE IS NO STANDARD CERTIFICATION FOR A SERVICE ANIMAL. NONE. DOESN'T EXIST.

So you can't say a trained and certified animal, because there is no way to determine one.

Also, title III of the ADA DOES apply to cruise ships, based on, among other things, Spector vs NCL in which the Supreme Court held it did, with some exceptions due to restrictions on physical designs.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-1388.ZS.html

Are you saying this is wrong?

 

http://www.ada.gov/regs2010/service_animal_qa.html

 

 

And here is the biggest problem and loophole:

 

 

Please state where the US DOT standards for Air Travel have been used to determine how the ADA should be applied to cruise ship travel for non flagged foreign vessels that the US government has limited powers to enforce!

 

It is quite simple then. For travel outside of US territory, visiting a non US territory, or for internal travel, a pet passport system is set up with a minimal administration fee, to allow those that have trained and certified service animals to travel by air or by ship.

 

The ADA is quite clear when it says:

 

 

And non reasonable ADA laws do not apply on foreign flagged ships.

So the cruise line (NCL is within it's rights to deny except for Pride of America).

 

ex techie

There was a time in America where we as a society obeyed the rules. There was order. Now for reasons that are a mystery to me, the majority of our society will willingly lie and cheat the rules to get what they want. I am sure there is some relationship between this behavior and the $3 trillion in credit card debt. So many feel entitled. Order is gone. Chaos is the rule of the day.

And..since this seems to be slipping by you. THERE IS NO STANDARD CERTIFICATION FOR A SERVICE ANIMAL. NONE. DOESN'T EXIST.

This is totally correct. However, reputable programs that train service animals do issue a non-legal, not standardized certificate with the animal documenting their training, date the animal was placed with the user, etc. While this technically has no legal value, it is often accepted as "proof" that this is indeed a service animal when people/places who don't know any better demand such evidence.

It's not really any different than when you take your dog to puppy training and at the end they issue a "graduation certificate." It's not worth the paper it's printed on....until someone in your neighborhood complains about your "unruly" animal and you can present your neighborhood association with "proof" that your animal has attended and passed whatever stage of training.

It will shut up ignorant individuals.

No, I am saying its exactly right, a verbal assertion is sufficient, tho tags, etc are also sufficient. Stupid.

I hope you are saying the law is stupid and not me?

ex techie

No, I am saying its exactly right, a verbal assertion is sufficient, tho tags, etc are also sufficient. Stupid.

 

And the assertion comes from court cases wherein since title III of the ADA is vague on some matters, the courts and the DOT have used definitions and policies in the ACAA in lieu of missing standards. It's not an equal translation, but its the closest they have in law.

 

And..since this seems to be slipping by you. THERE IS NO STANDARD CERTIFICATION FOR A SERVICE ANIMAL. NONE. DOESN'T EXIST.

 

So you can't say a trained and certified animal, because there is no way to determine one.

 

Also, title III of the ADA DOES apply to cruise ships, based on, among other things, Spector vs NCL in which the Supreme Court held it did, with some exceptions due to restrictions on physical designs.

 

https://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/03-1388.ZS.html

The ACAA regs have very little in common with cruise line travel, so I cannot see how they can equally and properly be transferred across without modification and being adapted, or loosely interpreting them.

You say "since this seems to be slipping by you. THERE IS NO STANDARD CERTIFICATION FOR A SERVICE ANIMAL. NONE. DOESN'T EXIST."

Yes that is correct.

However I did say "It is quite simple then. For travel outside of US territory, visiting a non US territory, or for internal travel, a pet passport system is set up with a minimal administration fee, to allow those that have trained and certified service animals to travel by air or by ship." with the intent that a regulated and standardized system also be implemented, but I did not specifically say that, so I do apologize.

Since that slipped past me, what parts in title III apart from basic and reasonable accommodation to all areas of the ship, not making structural changes to the ships design or interfering with the ships operation for foreign flagged vessels temporarily in U.S waters where you specifically speak of?

ex techie

The DOJ ADA 2010 update specifically addressed Service animals as regards to Title III entries (under which cruise ships qualify per the decision above)

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

Relevant passage: "Generally, title II and title III entities must permit service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas where members of the public are allowed to go."

And (again my emphasis in bold): "

[*]When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.

And yes, I was referring to the rule (and also this guidance) as stupid, since it means all anyone has to say, without any proof whatsoever, "Oh, my dog detects low blood sugar" or "seizures" and title III entities have to allow it and cannot confirm it in any way.

Service animals also are specifically defined as only dogs in that document, with mini horses also covered, but with a clause that allows exclusion.

Prior to those rules, there was no clear guidance regarding service animals on cruise ships other than title III applied. So the courts used what they considered the closest applicable similar industry, namely airlines, and used the ACAA to interpret. Court rulings have precedence so those decisions are still in play. The ACAA is also responsible for the concept of 'credible verbal assurance', which also carried over into the DOJ ruling. Loosely is probably a good way to define it, but still binding.

The ACAA regs have very little in common with cruise line travel, so I cannot see how they can equally and properly be transferred across without modification and being adapted, or loosely interpreting them.

 

 

 

 

You say "since this seems to be slipping by you. THERE IS NO STANDARD CERTIFICATION FOR A SERVICE ANIMAL. NONE. DOESN'T EXIST."

Yes that is correct.

However I did say "It is quite simple then. For travel outside of US territory, visiting a non US territory, or for internal travel, a pet passport system is set up with a minimal administration fee, to allow those that have trained and certified service animals to travel by air or by ship." with the intent that a regulated and standardized system also be implemented, but I did not specifically say that, so I do apologize.

 

Since that slipped past me, what parts in title III apart from basic and reasonable accommodation to all areas of the ship, not making structural changes to the ships design or interfering with the ships operation for foreign flagged vessels temporarily in U.S waters where you specifically speak of?

 

ex techie

Or to put it another way, since outside the editing period, even if there was a standard cert or pet passport, under the DOJ rulings in place, the ship is not allowed to ask for it.

The DOJ ADA 2010 update specifically addressed Service animals as regards to Title III entries (under which cruise ships qualify per the decision above)

 

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

Relevant passage: "Generally, title II and title III entities must permit service animals to accompany people with disabilities in all areas where members of the public are allowed to go."

 

And (again my emphasis in bold): "

 

 

• When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task.
  

And yes, I was referring to the rule (and also this guidance) as stupid, since it means all anyone has to say, without any proof whatsoever, "Oh, my dog detects low blood sugar" or "seizures" and title III entities have to allow it and cannot confirm it in any way.

 

Well chengkp75 disagrees with your interpretation of how the ADA applies to cruise ships.

 

The court specifically exempted the ships' "internal policies and procedures" from compliance. So, the cruise lines could say that service animals are not allowed in the MDR, for instance, only in the buffet, or limit them to one restaurant, or one area of one restaurant.

 

So with respect, I am more inclined to believe his interoperation since he works on ships, and you do not.

Source:

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showpost.php?p=50049819&postcount=29

 

 

Service animals also are specifically defined as only dogs in that

 

I agree with your sentiments regarding how ridiculous the system is.

I will also point out that DCL do NOT provide lifts at any of their pools to enable handicapped Guests to enter their pools, nor provide a ADA compliant safe entry and exit system for them. The ramps onto open decks are also not compliant with a 1 foot inclination per 1 inch rise?

They also fail to provide an elevator to any of their water slides.

Not very ADA or ACAA compliant?

ex techie

Or to put it another way, since outside the editing period, even if there was a standard cert or pet passport, under the DOJ rulings in place, the ship is not allowed to ask for it.

Put it this way.

I was saying what should be changed, not stating what is current law.

ex techie

 

I will also point out that DCL do NOT provide lifts at any of their pools to enable handicapped Guests to enter their pools, nor provide a ADA compliant safe entry and exit system for them. The ramps onto open decks are also not compliant with a 1 foot inclination per 1 inch rise?

They also fail to provide an elevator to any of their water slides.

Not very ADA or ACAA compliant?

 

ex techie

Wait a second. Going way off topic here but SAY WHAT? There are NO pool lifts? I never even thought to ask that because I just assumed there would be at least a few. I have never been on a cruise that didn't! *my Fantasy Cruise was without the chair user and it was a media event so I never even got out to the pool to check*

Wait a second. Going way off topic here but SAY WHAT? There are NO pool lifts? I never even thought to ask that because I just assumed there would be at least a few. I have never been on a cruise that didn't! *my Fantasy Cruise was without the chair user and it was a media event so I never even got out to the pool to check*

Nope, no pool lifts. No HA access to the slides. And there are a few thresholds that I can't get a chair over either forward or backward. There are not many of these and we quickly learned where/how to work around them. It became an issue for us only when they had closed one of our "work around" areas. BUT "in the rare event of a real emergency," these alternate pathways could be closed due to the situation.

The ramps to board and disembark don't meet ADA guidelines, but we are able to navigate them without difficulty...and we've always had a CM who would help. The ramps over the thresholds are not ADA compliant but again, have never been a problem for us.

There was a time in America where we as a society obeyed the rules. There was order. Now for reasons that are a mystery to me, the majority of our society will willingly lie and cheat the rules to get what they want. I am sure there is some relationship between this behavior and the $3 trillion in credit card debt. So many feel entitled. Order is gone. Chaos is the rule of the day.

Totally agree!

And after some people cheat the system by whatever means, they think its a badge of honor and brag about it!

AKK

Nope' date=' no pool lifts. No HA access to the slides. And there are a few thresholds that I can't get a chair over either forward or backward. There are not many of these and we quickly learned where/how to work around them. It became an issue for us only when they had closed one of our "work around" areas. BUT "in the rare event of a real emergency," these alternate pathways could be closed due to the situation.

 

The ramps to board and disembark don't meet ADA guidelines, but we are able to navigate them without difficulty...and we've always had a CM who would help. The ramps over the thresholds are not ADA compliant but again, have never been a problem for us.[/quote']

 

So I freaked last night after reading ex techies comment and did some more research. A few blogs talking about special needs on the Fantasy mention lifts. I called Disney Cruise Line Special Services at (407) 566-3602 this AM and was told that THE FANTASY has lifts at Quiet Cove Pool, Quiet Cove Jacuzzi, Donald's Pool and Rainforest (Spa?) jacuzzi but you must make an appointment with Guest Services to use them. THE WONDER has one at Quiet Cove and Goofy Pool. They are not left on deck. One Celebrity Cruise we were on did this as well. Kind of a pain but at least they were there and I get why they don't want them out.

 

It says this on the their site: https://disneycruise.disney.go.com/faq/guests-with-disabilities/pool-lifts/

 

Q.

Do any of the ship's pools have lifts for Guests with disabilities?

A.

Yes. Guest-operated pool lifts are available at certain locations for requested time periods within operating hours. The pool lift maximum weight limit is 300 pounds.

 

Guests are advised to contact Disney Cruise Line Special Services in advance of their cruise to discuss arrangements for the use of pool lifts.

 

Disney Cruise Line Special Services

Phone: (407) 566-3602

Fax: (407) 566-3760

TTY: (407) 566-7455

Email: SpecialServices@disneycruise.com

 

So sorry to hijack this thread and I really pray Disney info is correct as I know you guys have been there, done that and would know. Maybe this is relatively new? I never considered the slide an option just because I have never seen an accessible water slide for a fulltime chair user and I know what sort of threshold things you are talking about moki'smommy. We've dealt with them on the older RC ships but grrrrr.....why on a new ship? *sigh*