credit card usage

[12B@C]

I'm not here to debate the merits of traditional signature verification, nor the standard to which the task is performed.

 

Everyone knows what I mean by traditional signature verification. A slip is produced for you to sign, you sign it, the merchant checks the signature against the signature on the strip on the back of the card. That's how it's been done all over the world for decades.

 

Or, if those words are too complicated to understand: bring your US card and use it like you do at home.

 

My,oh, my. Aren't we a bit sensitive?

 

What you say is done 'all over the world for decades' is not entirely true. I have used two cards all over the world and I do not have a signature on the back of either card. It simply states 'see ID', meaning that the user of the card has to show his ID. It is a much better way to prevent someone else from using the card. Signature has nothing to do with it.

 

My point is that you have to be careful when making blatent statements.

End of discussion.

[newport dave]

My,oh, my. Aren't we a bit sensitive?

 

What you say is done 'all over the world for decades' is not entirely true. I have used two cards all over the world and I do not have a signature on the back of either card. It simply states 'see ID', meaning that the user of the card has to show his ID. It is a much better way to prevent someone else from using the card. Signature has nothing to do with it.

 

My point is that you have to be careful when making blatent statements.

End of discussion.

 

Up until a few years ago, the only official photo ID people had in the UK was a Passport or Forces ID card. It's only in the last few years that Photo ID Driving Licences have become the norm.

 

So if all your cards say check ID on the reverse for big purchases. How would we in the UK know if your driving licence was real or fake!!!!!!

 

Also if you used a simple scratch for your signature in the UK, you'd more than likely be refused the purchase also.

[h3rjp]

When I used to be a "Clerk" if someone had presented me with a card that said "see ID" on it rather than a signature I would have no choice but to refuse it as a method of payment.

 

Likewise if someone had just made a simple scratch rather than the signature on the back of the card, I would refuse it.

 

Are you saying there is no space for you to put a signature on the back on your card, or have you simply writen "see ID" where your signature should be?

[gaynell]

we're going to be in oxford for 6 months in the spring and planned to use our normal ATM card for cash needs (along with electronic banking for the rest of our financial management). should we anticipate any problems there?

[12B@C]

When I used to be a "Clerk" if someone had presented me with a card that said "see ID" on it rather than a signature I would have no choice but to refuse it as a method of payment.

 

Likewise if someone had just made a simple scratch rather than the signature on the back of the card, I would refuse it.

 

Are you saying there is no space for you to put a signature on the back on your card, or have you simply writen "see ID" where your signature should be?

 

Let me try to clarify.

If a card that has a signature on the back is lost or stolen, the person who then uses it can easily copy the signature with a bit of practice.

 

If the back of the card asks the clerk to verify the person's ID the passport or driver's license or any other photo ID would quickly show the clerk that the name on the card and the photo ID are a match. This only takes a second when both clerk and purchaser are used to that procedure.

True, nothing is perfect and to fallsify a driver's license or passport is not outof the question, but this procedure sure beats verifying a signature. I would certainly have a word with the manager of a place where a clerk refuses to accept a card that says 'see ID'. An as I said, I have used these cards in many countries with no one ever refusing it.

 

When I mentioned using a 'scratch' I was not referring that the back of the card has a scratch. I do this only when I have to sign the electronic gismo where I process the card myself. The system will accept anything you write on the pad in front of you. The clerk never gets involved.

This is very common at grocery and department stores in the US.

To purchase gasoline you don't even have to sign, but some places do ask for your home zip code to verify that at least you are from the general area that the card was issued to.

[newport dave]

Let me try to clarify.

If a card that has a signature on the back is lost or stolen, the person who then uses it can easily copy the signature with a bit of practice.

 

If the back of the card asks the clerk to verify the person's ID the passport or driver's license or any other photo ID would quickly show the clerk that the name on the card and the photo ID are a match. This only takes a second when both clerk and purchaser are used to that procedure.

True, nothing is perfect and to fallsify a driver's license or passport is not outof the question, but this procedure sure beats verifying a signature. I would certainly have a word with the manager of a place where a clerk refuses to accept a card that says 'see ID'. An as I said, I have used these cards in many countries with no one ever refusing it.

 

When I mentioned using a 'scratch' I was not referring that the back of the card has a scratch. I do this only when I have to sign the electronic gismo where I process the card myself. The system will accept anything you write on the pad in front of you. The clerk never gets involved.

This is very common at grocery and department stores in the US.

To purchase gasoline you don't even have to sign, but some places do ask for your home zip code to verify that at least you are from the general area that the card was issued to.

 

If my card was lost or stolen, then I would report it so, and it would get cancelled and therefore never accepted by the shop. Also as far as I know, no UK credit card as 'see ID' on it.

[12B@C]

If my card was lost or stolen, then I would report it so, and it would get cancelled and therefore never accepted by the shop. Also as far as I know, no UK credit card as 'see ID' on it.

 

If you are that confident that you will know the instant your card is gone and can place a call to report that fact, then why bother with this 'chip' and pin number?

But you know as well as I that a thief intent to use the missing card is not going to wait a few days or hours. If however, he (or she) notices that the card does not have a signature on the back, he/she would have second thoughts about going somewhere and have the 'clerk' ask for a picture ID.

Furthermore, I don't understand why all you Brits are so against the idea and method that has worked fine for many of us here in the States.

 

When I come back to England some day, I guess I will just have to sign the credit card slip with 'see ID' and let that be my signature as it is on the back of the card. Silly? Sure, but so is not believing our system is no good.

[Giantfan13]

we're going to be in oxford for 6 months in the spring and planned to use our normal ATM card for cash needs (along with electronic banking for the rest of our financial management). should we anticipate any problems there?

 

None at all

[Globaliser]

My,oh, my. Aren't we a bit sensitive?

No, just irritated by your injection of a piece of technical pedantry that unnecessarily confuses the simple advice that's been unanimously given on this thread, just because you happen to have a card that takes an unusual approach to signature verification.

[Globaliser]

Furthermore, I don't understand why all you Brits are so against the idea and method that has worked fine for many of us here in the States.

Simple answer: Because we don't carry ID.

[xpcdoojk]

Globaliser, do you not carry a drivers license with a photo id?

 

By the way, most USA issued credit cards charge 3% foreign exchange fee on each and every transaction. If you spend a $1000 USD while in the UK or any foreign country, that is $30 extra that you will pay. My Capital One card does not charge this fee. You should make sure that you have a card that does not charge the foreign exchange fee. Call your card company and inquire before you go. If they do charge the fee, I highly recommend that you get a card that doesn't. As far as I am aware (not in the card industry) Capital 1 is the only one that doesn't. fyi

 

I will be walking the streets of London in about 31 days. :D

 

jc

[Globaliser]

Globaliser, do you not carry a drivers license with a photo id?

No. My driving licence does not have a photo at all, and even if you have a new-style driving licence with a photocard, you don't have to carry it even if you're driving.

[xpcdoojk]

G, interesting. So, when you do need identification what do you use to prove who you are? Other than a passport when you travel. I was thinking when you go to the bank or something like that.

 

jc

[Lair Bear]

This new chip and PIN system is, of course, new to a lot of other countries besides the US. Many are just installing it. But for people coming from the US it still will be a problem with their magnetic strip cards. Even if you have a pin number assigned in the US (I have one from Capitol One, but never use it), you probably cannot use it because the small machines that are now in place all over Europe will only read the 'chip' and the PIN number entered and may not be in communication with the bank or credit card institution.

I say, probably, because I am not sure of that.

If the machines are in direct contact to verify that the card is still valid, for example, then why not let the 'institution' verify that the PIN number entered is valid. Just like it is done with ATM or debit cards. In that case you would not need a 'chip'.

 

There is a good article on the following web site.

 

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/outdated-smart-card-chip-pin-1273.php

 

BTW I contacted Capitol One and they cannot issue us a chip and PIN card here in the US.

[EJNutz]

Chip and Pin is the preferred method of use of CC in the UK. However if your card is not chip and pin enabled then they will use an alternative. So there should be no problem with using your card in the UK.

[Lair Bear]

Chip and Pin is the preferred method of use of CC in the UK. However if your card is not chip and pin enabled then they will use an alternative. So there should be no problem with using your card in the UK.

 

That is not what h3rjp said in an earlier post of this thread. And I quote him/her:

"What the other poster said is correct about un-manned ticket kiosks. Automatic payment machines are now pretty much set up for reading chip and cards and will not accept cards that do not have an embedded chip on them (so pretty much all USA cards)"

 

It is my understanding that a lot of places have no attendant to let you use alternative methods.

[cruisemom42]

Incidentally, a poster on our Celebrity Roll Call claims that debit and credit card PINs starting with zero are often rejected by international ATMs. Has anyone run across this?

 

I have a VISA debit card with a pin number starting with zero. I have used it all over the world with no problems whatsoever. Perhaps it is a problem with some particular ATM network or some particular bank, but I have never encountered it.

[Globaliser]

So, when you do need identification what do you use to prove who you are? Other than a passport when you travel. I was thinking when you go to the bank or something like that.

We're very rarely asked for identification, even at the bank. If you haven't got ID to satisfy the teller, you just go to a machine.

 

In fact, one of the interesting bank customer habits in the UK is that people much prefer to use machines than to go to a teller. Often, you will see the tellers sitting there doing nothing, while customers queue for several minutes to use an ATM.

That is not what h3rjp said in an earlier post of this thread. And I quote him/her:

"What the other poster said is correct about un-manned ticket kiosks. Automatic payment machines are now pretty much set up for reading chip and cards and will not accept cards that do not have an embedded chip on them (so pretty much all USA cards)"

 

It is my understanding that a lot of places have no attendant to let you use alternative methods.

No. Such places are few and far between. While there are increasing numbers of machines that require chip-and-PIN, it's pretty rare to have no manned alternative.

[newport dave]

G, interesting. So, when you do need identification what do you use to prove who you are? Other than a passport when you travel. I was thinking when you go to the bank or something like that.

 

jc

 

 

Birth Certificate, various utility bills, bank statement etc.

[Lair Bear]

Globalizer (or anyone else who is familiar with the chip and PIN method),

 

You have clarified a few questions but I wonder if you like to elaborate on the two questions I asked earlier:

 

"Even if you have a pin number assigned in the US (I have one from Capitol One, but never use it), you probably cannot use it because the small machines that are now in place all over Europe will only read the 'chip' and the PIN number entered and may not be in communication with the bank or credit card institution.

I say, probably, because I am not sure of that.

If the machines are in direct contact to verify that the card is still valid, for example, then why not let the 'institution' verify that the PIN number entered is valid. Just like it is done with ATM or debit cards. In that case you would not need a 'chip'.

Am I correct in assuming that when you swipe or enter your chip card in a machine it still has to be in communication with the bank in order to verify that the card is indeed valid and has not been taken out of service?

If the little machine that is brought to your table in a restaurant compares the chip and PIN and then records the transaction, those details would still have to be transferred through the internet to the bank (or who ever). Now, I would also assume that the little machine records the credit card number, PIN number and the amount of the transaction. So now all that information is out in the open world anyway. True, you are the only one who touched your card, but it is the information that a dishonest person is interested in and they can readily make another card and chip.

Again my question is: I like the idea of a PIN number, but what good is the chip?

[h3rjp]

We're very rarely asked for identification, even at the bank. If you haven't got ID to satisfy the teller, you just go to a machine.

 

In fact, one of the interesting bank customer habits in the UK is that people much prefer to use machines than to go to a teller. Often, you will see the tellers sitting there doing nothing, while customers queue for several minutes to use an ATM.No. Such places are few and far between. While there are increasing numbers of machines that require chip-and-PIN, it's pretty rare to have no manned alternative.

 

I was thinking more for car park payment machines or train ticket machines where a station is unmanned; just the sort of places where you can get caught out byt not having the right amount of cash or change and a credit card that won't work. But yeah, as Globaliser says, in most circumstances there will be a real person there to take payment instead.

[skisteamboat]

Just back from a week in London where I used my Capital One card with no chip/pin. I was asked in about 20% of the cases for ID when I signed. Never had it refused at any location.

 

Cheers

[12B@C]

Just back from a week in London where I used my Capital One card with no chip/pin. I was asked in about 20% of the cases for ID when I signed. Never had it refused at any location.

 

Very interesting. Since they asked for your ID, I guess you are one of so many in the US who signed the back of their credit card with ‘see ID’.

Last Saturday we were at Sears (a reputable outfit, to be sure) to buy a new dishwasher (not a nickel or dime item). When I gave the lady my credit card, she swiped it, I signed the little box and she looked at the back of my card. Then she asked me for my ID and I readily showed her my driver’s license. She looked at it compared the names and glanced at my face. No problem. She hadn’t even looked at my signature.

Because of this forum, I asked her if she sees this ‘see ID’ a lot.

She replied, “Oh yes, and I use it on my card also. But what really is surprising is that we get so many people who have a blank area on the back of their card.”

“What do you do then,” I asked.

“Well we ask them for a picture ID, of course.” was her answer.

[12B@C]

Globalizer (or anyone else who is familiar with the chip and PIN method),

 

You have clarified a few questions but I wonder if you like to elaborate on the two questions I asked earlier:

 

"Even if you have a pin number assigned in the US (I have one from Capitol One, but never use it), you probably cannot use it because the small machines that are now in place all over Europe will only read the 'chip' and the PIN number entered and may not be in communication with the bank or credit card institution.

I say, probably, because I am not sure of that.

If the machines are in direct contact to verify that the card is still valid, for example, then why not let the 'institution' verify that the PIN number entered is valid. Just like it is done with ATM or debit cards. In that case you would not need a 'chip'."

 

I have been watching to see if any of our British friends would answer your questions. But apparently they don’t know or don’t care anymore on this thread.

Here is what I understand about this chip and PIN process.

When they put their ‘smart card’ into the little machine, it checks the validity of the PIN they entered with the chip. If the two match, everything is fine. Then it records all of the transaction information but does not communicate with ‘home-base’ (bank or credit- card company) until later in the evening. And yes, if your assumption is correct, that if the PIN number is part of this information, than that information is transmitted ‘to the world’.

Since the little machine is not in contact during the transaction it cannot verify that the card is still valid or that the credit limit has not been exceeded. That happens much later. So, a person could go on a shopping spree all day and the merchant or bank does not find out until the following morning.

I am sure that there is no totally secure way; there will always be a crook out there who can hack or find a way to get ‘inside’. A PIN number will help and so does the idea of ‘see ID’. But the money the banks in Europe must have spent to distribute cards with chips and machines that will process them has to been horrendous. And who do you think eventually pays for that?

Since we, in the US, have so many reading machines that are based on the magnetic strip out there, it is no wonder the US banks and credit card companies are reluctant to join our European friends.

 

BTW How did you get a PIN for your credit card with Capital One? I don’t think it does any good, but I checked with my bank and they don’t know what I am talking about.

[skisteamboat]

Very interesting. Since they asked for your ID, I guess you are one of so many in the US who signed the back of their credit card with ‘see ID’.

 

Actually, it has my signature on the card, NOT "See ID".;)

 

Cheers