HAL strategy wrong? Go upmarket, better than going down market?

[Jade13]

To paraphrase Groucho Marx:

 

"It's too bad that the people who really know how to run a cruise line are so busy driving taxicabs, cutting hair, - and posting on Cruisecritic."

 

So, what do you suggest that HAL do? What about those paying a premium price? This is not always just for a Suite but some sailings sell at a premium such as Voyage of the Vikings.

[sail7seas]

To paraphrase Groucho Marx:

 

"It's too bad that the people who really know how to run a cruise line are so busy driving taxicabs, cutting hair, - and posting on Cruisecritic."

 

Some who post here are also engineers, physicians, PHd's, attorneys, school teachers, Chefs, accountants, and even Cruise ship Captains and Hotel Managers. ;)

[ironin]

I don't know if this was directed towards me...

...but I work in the Securities/Brokerage industry - so I read alot of research & analysis on publicly-traded companies.

 

Absolutely, positively NOT directed at you and horrified to discover that you even thought it might be! I enjoy your comments on every subject here and have learned much from them. I may not always agree with you, but that's to be expected. I respect your opinions. (Well, most of the time, unless I'm truly invested in the opposite opinion, a situation which I can't recall at the moment, but I should acknowledge if it has happened in the past or does so in the future ;))

 

That comment was meant as nothing more than an off-hand flip response to something that made me chuckle. Thus the phrase "idly wondering." Were it really important to me, I would have asked or delved further. Truth be known, if I was thinking of anyone specifically at the time, it was probably HappyinVan, whose persistence I find admirable but whose debating style does not appeal to me personally.

Edited December 28, 2010 by ironin

[Jade13]

Some who post here are....even Cruise ship Captains and Hotel Managers. ;)

 

Interesting.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Jade13

[GeriatricNurse]

Some who post here are also engineers, physicians, PHd's, attorneys, school teachers, Chefs, accountants, and even Cruise ship Captains and Hotel Managers. ;)

 

 

Hey, Judy, you somehow forgot to name retired nurses in your list as well!;)

[woodofpine]

I'll leave it to Phillip and HAL's managers to determine what the break even point is on their vessels - but it is near capacity generally speaking.

 

None of the lines you cite as examples HAL should follow are asset comparable (meaning ship size and fleet size). HAL has 15 ships!

 

Celebrity is comparable - although HAL has nearly 50% more ships than X... Celebrity has taken an interesting approach - reinventing cabin service classes. But Celeb is hardly in the same price or product point as many of the lines you cite. Additionally, RCL itself is probably pricier to cruise on than X and longer run profitability there remains a question given the debt load RCI carries.

 

The long and short of it is... If you want Regent or Seabourn's product - Go Buy It!

[woodofpine]

BTW - I just did a price comparison using a well know online TA I use from time to time. Just to keep it simple RSS has a 7 day western Caribbean out of Lauterdale 2/3/11. RSS's price is 50% higher than the biggest suites on HAL (with the exception of Ryndam's Penthouse)

[bepsf]

Absolutely, positively NOT directed at you and horrified to discover that you even thought it might be! I enjoy your comments on every subject here and have learned much from them.

 

No worries -

- and Thank You for the compliment.

:)

[sail7seas]

Hey, Judy, you somehow forgot to name retired nurses in your list as well!;)

 

:D Ooops, sorry.

Couldn't possibly list EVERY profession/job/specialty. ;)

[HappyInVan]

Truth be known, if I was thinking of anyone specifically at the time, it was probably HappyinVan, whose persistence I find admirable but whose debating style does not appeal to me personally.

 

 

Dear Ironin,

 

 

Thanks for the compliments.

 

 

Debating? I have offered facts, figures and analytical models. I have patiently waited for others to make their contribution.

 

 

So far, I have not seen the facts, figures and analytical models to support the views of some posters in this thread!

 

 

So, there has been no debate.

 

 

I definitely look forward to hearing your facts, figures and analytical models.

[Roz]

Why do we need analytical models to enjoy cruising and/or express an opinion?

 

Roz

[ironin]

Debating? I have offered facts, figures and analytical models. I have patiently waited for others to make their contribution.

 

I'm sure that you earnestly believe that, but in the course of casually perusing the thread from time to time, I came to the conclusion that, on the whole, the facts and figures presented were selected to support a particular point of view and those that did not confirm that viewpoint were ignored or discounted. Both are effective debating tools.

 

 

So far, I have not seen the facts, figures and analytical models to support the views of some posters in this thread!

After seeing the response to those who tried to provide some, it is easy for me to understand why so few made any serious attempt.

 

So, there has been no debate.

That is probably true.

 

I definitely look forward to hearing your facts, figures and analytical models.

As I wrote in my response to bepsf, this isn't something I'm terribly invested in discussing. It has been mildly entertaining but not worth spending a great deal of time debating.

 

Having now reviewed your profile, I still idly wonder what your occupation was before retirement. (While this really isn't the time or place, I'll note that, after reviewing your prior posts, I came away with a distinct impression of personal antipathy for HAL's largely Asian staff.)

Edited December 29, 2010 by ironin

[DRWhit]

I don't see the difference that Happy seems to see between HAL and Celebrity. Both were positioned to be a premium brand between mass market and luxury. Both pursued an active growth strategy and added a several new ships in the late 90's and 2000's. Now that the economy has gotten a bit tougher, both brands find themselves competing with the mass markets, especially for Carribean cruises. Celebrity's prices are basically the same as HALs.

 

The concept that HAL could have added all the new ships, and then somehow added enough cruisers to fill them while still charging higher prices than mass markets, Celebrity, and others; seems to be the unsupported position to me.

 

OK, slight revision here. I have misquoted Happy. He says that HAL should have bought out Oceania and Regent instead of adding their newest 6 ships. That's an interesting thought, but I think since HAL is owned by Carnival, it would have been Carnival that would be doing the buying. Maybe they could have, but that seems a bit out of character for Carnival, who seems to like growth through expansion. Also they already own Seabourn.

Edited December 29, 2010 by DRWhit

[Mt. Rose]

To paraphrase Groucho Marx:

 

"It's too bad that the people who really know how to run a cruise line are so busy driving taxicabs, cutting hair, - and posting on Cruisecritic."

My hairdresser would be offended that you put him in a "lesser" category of occupation. I think we all want the same: value for money spent, fair treatment and a wonderful opportunity to see and learn about other cultures. I personally would like to see HAL keep the moderately comfortable middle of the road atmosphere. I think there is a niche for the more traditional traveler who is not in to gimmicks and the carnival atmosphere now presented to us by some lines. We've always sailed with HAL for this reason. And think of it this way, the younger set will sooner come to appreciate the more classic mode of shipboard amenities and travel style as they, too, get more mature.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Mt. Rose

[HappyInVan]

Why do we need analytical models to enjoy cruising and/or express an opinion?

 

Roz

 

 

 

Dear Roz,

 

 

I mentioned facts, figures and analytical models in reference to Ironin's mention of my debating style.

 

 

In general, it is advisable to hold an opinion based on facts. IMO, the only way to arrive at a considered opinion is by using an analytical model.

 

 

I am pleased that we have avoided the fate of many other threads. We have offered our opinions mostly without abuse and anger. It is largely because we have restrained ourselves to an objective look at the subject.

 

 

As the OP, I have tried to act as the steward of the thread. To keep the thread on topic and to counter the dubious claims made by some. This thread has exceeded my expectations.

 

Thanks to those who made made a contribution, and to those who have chosen not to. :cool:

[DizzyDallasDi]

Analytical models, factual statements, debates and the such lend nothing to my vacation satisfaction. That's work to me and I don't spend any time at all using these tools to analyze my cruise experience.

 

If I had fun and was satisfied with the product I bought, that's all I need to be a happy camper and a return customer. Simple analysis for me. :D

[sapper1]

Analytical models, factual statements, debates and the such lend nothing to my vacation satisfaction. That's work to me and I don't spend any time at all using these tools to analyze my cruise experience.

 

If I had fun and was satisfied with the product I bought, that's all I need to be a happy camper and a return customer. Simple analysis for me. :D

Works for me too.:)

[HappyInVan]

Did it!

 

 

Booked cruises with Silversea and Regent in March in the Caribbean. I will be able to deliver a B2B review of the two premium ships, using HAL as the mass cruise yardstick!

 

 

On the websites, Silversea goes on and on (like HAL) about how wonderful its experience is going to be. On the other hand, Regent Seven Seas is positively spartan.

 

 

Who will be able to deliver (or exceed) on its promises?

 

 

This is a new year. Life goes on. Much to anticpate. As usual, I will deliver a careful, fair and thorough account. Stay tuned!

 

 

Here are the statistics:

 

 

MS Prinsendam 37.8k tons, 674' long, built 1988, Crew/Passenger 0.62x, 740 passengers

Silver Cloud 16.8k tons, 514' long, built 1994, Crew/Passenger 0.7x, 290 passengers

SS Navigator 28k tons, 565' long, built 1999, Crew/Passenger 0.7x, 490 passengers

 

 

Crew ratio Seabourn Spirit 0.79, Silver Cloud 0.7, Seven Seas Voyager 0.64 Navigator 0.7, Oceania Insignia 0.6, Prinsendam 0.6, Ryndam 0.48, Eurodam 0.44, Rotterdam 0.42, Oasis of the Sea 0.4

 

 

Comparison of footage lowest category cabin Seabourn Spirit 277sf, Silver Cloud 240sf, Seven Seas Voyager 356sf (includes balcony) SS Navigator 301sf, Oceania Insignia 160sf, Prinsendam/Ryndam/Eurodam/Rotterdam 128-182sf, Oasis of the Sea 149sf.

 

 

How much will it cost? On the Silver Cloud, it is an astonishing $300 per nite SINGLE supplement ($240 double occupany) after deducting taxes, free air and OBC. On the Navigator, it comes to $480 per nite SINGLE supplement (list $310 double occupancy) after deducting taxes, free air, excursions, gratuities and others. Came with an upgrade to G class.

 

 

Comparison with single supplement of 150% Eurodam Deluxe Veranda suite $225 and Solstice Aqua veranda $300

[DRWhit]

I hope you have a great trip, and I look forward to hearing the results.

[mescat4]

tell me, who delivers a more varied itinerary offering at an affordable price point to fixed income seniors than HAL?

 

Ev

[Kini12]

Let's say you could sail the identical itinerary, at the same cabin price on Princess, NCL, Royal Caribbean, Celebrity and HAL. Which cruiseline would you choose and why?

 

Some of us may choose a ship based on a previous very pleasant experience. Others wants more -or less- "night life". Some people prefer a larger ship, others smaller. Some like certain types of activities or programs.

 

In other words, there are a myriad of reasons each individual chooses a particular cruiseline and ship. We always used to cruise on Carnival because they had larger OV cabins, however we began to feel somewhat out of place, based not just on our ages, but on the entire ambiance. Our first trip on Hal was pure chance, because it was an Alaskan Cruise via a tour company. We took our 19 and 20 year old children; our son was "bored silly", our daughter had a good time (she was asked out by two crew members), and we felt like we had found a "home".

 

Given any cruiseline, ship, itinerary, dinner, etc. there are a vast variety of reasons certain choices are made; then we evaluate those choices. Two people could share the exact same meal with one loving it and one hating it. Just as a quick example: I love lots of butter in my mashed potatoes, but my son-in-law will not eat anything made with butter.

 

So, what I am saying is that each cruiseline / ship develops its own "culture" and we are attracted to it -or not- by MANY reasons. What we liked yesterday, we may not like tomorrow, and it does not necessarily have anything to do with our age or any changes the cruiseline makes. Will I stop cruising with HAL if they raise prices? No, but I may cruise less frequently. Will I stop cruising with them if they eliminate Formal Night? No, although I always "dress" for dinner when we are cruising and I do enjoy having a chance to wear my "party clothes". Will I stop if there are more or less activities and programs? No because I participate in just what I want to do anyway. Just like everyone takes the same dinner menu that lists several choices for every course, and puts together an individual (and perhaps unique) dinner, we all can create an individual cruise that suits our individual "appetite". As far as attracting new cruisers goes, I would guess that "word of mouth" probably brings as many, if not more, than advertisements do!

 

I would choose Celebrity because of their smoking policy.

[Alcarondas]

tell me, who delivers a more varied itinerary offering at an affordable price point to fixed income seniors than HAL?

 

Ev

 

 

 

This depends on what your income is fixed at...

[TahoeTraveler]

Did it!

 

 

Booked cruises with Silversea and Regent in March in the Caribbean. I will be able to deliver a B2B review of the two premium ships, using HAL as the mass cruise yardstick!

 

 

On the websites, Silversea goes on and on (like HAL) about how wonderful its experience is going to be. On the other hand, Regent Seven Seas is positively spartan.

 

 

Who will be able to deliver (or exceed) on its promises?

 

 

This is a new year. Life goes on. Much to anticpate. As usual, I will deliver a careful, fair and thorough account. Stay tuned!

 

 

Here are the statistics:

 

 

MS Prinsendam 37.8k tons, 674' long, built 1988, Crew/Passenger 0.62x, 740 passengers

Silver Cloud 16.8k tons, 514' long, built 1994, Crew/Passenger 0.7x, 290 passengers

SS Navigator 28k tons, 565' long, built 1999, Crew/Passenger 0.7x, 490 passengers

 

 

Crew ratio Seabourn Spirit 0.79, Silver Cloud 0.7, Seven Seas Voyager 0.64 Navigator 0.7, Oceania Insignia 0.6, Prinsendam 0.6, Ryndam 0.48, Eurodam 0.44, Rotterdam 0.42, Oasis of the Sea 0.4

 

 

Comparison of footage lowest category cabin Seabourn Spirit 277sf, Silver Cloud 240sf, Seven Seas Voyager 356sf (includes balcony) SS Navigator 301sf, Oceania Insignia 160sf, Prinsendam/Ryndam/Eurodam/Rotterdam 128-182sf, Oasis of the Sea 149sf.

 

 

How much will it cost? On the Silver Cloud, it is an astonishing $300 per nite SINGLE supplement ($240 double occupany) after deducting taxes, free air and OBC. On the Navigator, it comes to $480 per nite SINGLE supplement (list $310 double occupancy) after deducting taxes, free air, excursions, gratuities and others. Came with an upgrade to G class.

 

 

Comparison with single supplement of 150% Eurodam Deluxe Veranda suite $225 and Solstice Aqua veranda $300

Happy, we got off Regent's Mariner last week (our first cruise with them, after cruising only HAL recently), so I can provide a good comparison between HAL and Regent. In my opinion, Regent blows HAL out of the water in terms of service, passenger demographics, furnishings and decor, ship size in relation to number of passengers, and general ambience. However, I'd have to call it a wash in regards to food, entertainment, and value received for money paid. Please feel free to email me at tamikobold at hughes dot net if you have any questions or would like further details.

[iancal]

I would expect that Regent would, as you say, 'blow HAL out of the water'. Regent is a premium line, HAL is a mass market line. One is focussed on a specific socioeconomic market segment, the other on lowest common denominator to fill the ship.

[heidik]

Alcarondas,

 

 

I hear you!

 

 

Bear in mind that the perspective of HAL newbies and HAL regulars are different. HAL regulars have many good cruises behind. They can risk a bad cruise because they can average it out.

 

 

However, newbies have only zero to two cruises. They can't average. So, they are focused on the next cruise. Is it the right cruise?

 

 

 

 

On that note, here is a post by Hawaidan which I agree fully with. I didn't even have to cruise once with Regent!

 

 

“I have been sailing Regent/Radission for a bunch of years..I have no idea what " level" that puts me at and I dont care.

The most interesting thing I have discovered is that if you cruise in a Holland suite, and pay all the nickel and dime stuff from soda to special dining tips... the whole shooting match, then you are paying far more on Holland America for what it a second rate experience because of:

 

 

1. Service, space and style

Holland has 3 to 4 times the passeners as Regent... so service on Holland is actulay 1/3 to 1/4 what you experience on Regent.

I did the math and discovered that going up scale on Holland is pennywise and pound foolish. You end up paying almost as much or more on Holland America as you would on Regent. The suites on Holland are suites in name only... same economy decore and trappings with a little more space. REGENT IS CLASS FROM YOUR WET BAR TO FURNATURE TO BATH. I WAS NOT IMPRESSED WITH THE HOLLAND VERANDAS, SUITES... VERY POOR VALUE...VERY POOR. THEY APPEAL TO THE EGO OF BUDGET FOLKS TRYINT TO ACT RICH.. SORRY, I SEE THEM AS HYPE.

I FOUND FOR THE VALUE THE INSIDE J CABINS TO BE FAR FAR SUPERIOR TO THE MORE EXPENSIVE VERANDA AND SUITES, ( and I toured themall with a ships rep in detail) Let me put it it this way...if you own a 1988 chevy and want a 2011 Merceded S class.... dont waste you money on trying to fix the chevy up ....by the Merceded.. or Booking the Presidental Suite at

motel 6

Chasing after luxury on a non luxury ship is a fools folly..... Holland is nice but even at the top lever it dosent even come close to Regent. The suite passenger and the budget passenger all pay the same at the bar, for laundry, internet, liquor, wine ,tipping....etc, etc. So the value is to get the same service or lack of it for the best price...

 

 

2. Ambiance and Passengers. Holland draws on a total spectrum from the creme to the curds of society.

Regent, by virtue of its initial cost drawn from a more, shall I say a more cultured and well mannered group.

There are no buffet bunnies, crying babies, spoiled brats or gold chain lounge lizards on Regent. It is like a refined country club where you are a member and people still act as ladies and gentlemen. People on Regent tend to dress well and above the standard... They enjoy the style of the ship and its haute but not snooty atmosphere such as Crystal.

An aire of subtile and well mannserd consideration.. that you just wont find on non-luxury ships of any line

 

 

3. Quality of food, and cuisine

With Cordon Bleu of Paris on board... plus 4 other venues all outstanding.

Want a special banquet for 12... you design the menue, classic french with paired wines ( all premier cru).. no problem... no charge. Want lobster omlets with grilled baby lamb chops for breakfast every morning

no big deal. Order room service and the wine steward sents up several bottles of wines matched to you dinner.... Bar tenders who know you by name... and know your desires... leave your cabin and when you arrive at the lounge...there is a table set with your favorite libation.... llike how did they do that..... Personal service, non stuffy even the Captain mingels and might slap you on the back like an old friend..... Nothing like that on lesser ships... not even close.... The food was good on Holland... but not even remotely , even in the " pay restauraunts" can you get Regent like. The shore excursion desk can and does put together special custom tours you design And when you return to the gangway you are habded a glass of Cham and told " welcome home" ..... with 600 to 700 passengers it works.... not with 2000+

 

 

If Holland were a Hotel...be would be a Marriott Courtyard. Regent , Ritz carlton Crystal...Hyatt Carnival...Motel-6 NCL...Best western.

 

 

If you want value, culture, cuisine and space and well dressed and mannered folks then Regent

If you want an economy version are are willing to live with much less for the sake of the dollar then Holland will be good

If you love to drink till you pass out, singles bars, vegas buffets and like to stay up all night and think you are 18-20.. then carnival is your ticket

 

 

Thats my take....after 10 years on Regent since 1999.... and recently on Holland. Dont fool yourself.. one is not the other....no way nomatter how much you spend...it just aint."

 

.....and the biggie for me and many others, a luxury line like Regent makes sailing solo more affordable -- I have not seen one reduced single supplement on HAL - on luxury lines you can get single supps for max 75% all the way down to a mere 10% -- big savings for a solo traveler that would be paying 200% for a suite on HAL!

Edited January 19, 2011 by heidik