Concordia News: Please Post Here

[sidari]

SB ... NP ... :) Like you i enjoy watching how salvagers work, i am sure that at some point they will have reinforced the Starboard side from inside the ship at the point where they are concerned that it may break.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Gee ........for a 400 million salvage bill I agree, I hope the enginierrs have figured in all the reinforcing that maybe needed.

 

The bottom line is that this plan is not a 100% lock in. All we can do is keep our fingers crossed.

 

 

AKK

[clive and anne]

I seem to remember that sometime back there seems to have been a proposal to pump some kind of expanded polystyrene into the area within the hull under water which was 1/60th of the weight of water. Wouldnt it appear a viable way of reducing the weight of water washing around when the parbuckle begins.

I hope our friends here with experience of salvage could advise us.

[Tonka's Skipper]

SOLAS....

 

The current version, passed in 1974, does not specify that the captain should stay with his ship but states that the captain, or master, has the ultimate authority aboard his ship.

 

In addition, it says all passenger ships must have a system for emergency management, which would set out who is responsible for what during an emergency situation. This may or may not stipulate that the captain has to be the last to leave.

 

Considering the cases of Scandinavian Star where a captain left 159 on board his ship to burn to death, Oceanos where a captain left all 600 pax to save themselves from the sinking ship miles from anywhere (and who subsequently was aquitted fo all charges relating to running from his ship and went on to become a cruise ship captain again), Express Samina where a captain left 60 to drown as his ship sank and he evacuated himself....to name but a few...

 

Maybe it is time that the 1974 SOLAS regarding captains leaving ships in emergencies was rewritten, eh?

 

 

As always you twist your facts...........ignore the facts.............as posted there is more then Solas involved each maritime nation has its rules and the funny thing is all you post you comfirm what I said in my first post, that after the captian has done all he could, and his life is then in damage,then he can leave. No where does if say he must go down with his ship.

 

In other words with in the qouted case Scandinian Star the fires were beyond control and nothing further could be done. The fact that there was a court case showed the national Maritime laws reqiured the Master to stay until he did everything he could. When the facts were demostrated and the court saw that the Master had stayed until he could not do anything more, he and his Officers were found not guity.

 

Thier was nothing more then a hearing on the coward Avranas, who like the Concordia Master had his bags packed and was, with his officers the first to leave the ship. The Greek legal/court system was bribed to sweep it all under the rug. It really is a Maritime disgrace..........

 

You can keep pulling out Solas ...........but that is only one small part of the whole picture.

 

 

Of course since you say your a airline accident investigator, I am not sure I want to fly anymore as you dont seem to be able to understand something as simple as this.

 

 

AKK

Edited January 18, 2013 by Tonka's Skipper

[Tonka's Skipper]

Hi there Clive and Anne.

 

They were indeed thinking of that, but I read somewhere recently that they want to keep the water in the hull and not spill it into the ocean (pollution issues).

 

If they used the expanding foam some water would be forced into the sea.

 

AKK

[clive and anne]

Thanks TS

I would have thought it better to displace some of the polluted sea water then risk the side of the ship collapsing and all sorts of "nasties" falling into the sea.

Wouldt it have been possible to pump out the polluted sea water into a fitration system whilst at the same time pumping the foam in.

Surely it would have increased the chances of the side of the ship surviving the parbuckle and if it did the foam would stop the contents spilling out?

[Tonka's Skipper]

Thanks TS

I would have thought it better to displace some of the polluted sea water then risk the side of the ship collapsing and all sorts of "nasties" falling into the sea.

Wouldt it have been possible to pump out the polluted sea water into a fitration system whilst at the same time pumping the foam in.

Surely it would have increased the chances of the side of the ship surviving the parbuckle and if it did the foam would stop the contents spilling out?

 

 

All your points are well taken. I think the problem of trying to filter all the water that maybe leaking out while pumping in the foam is that there are alot of opening in the hull now.........port holes, doors, torn steel, etc.

 

 

AKK

[Uniall]

As always you twist your facts...........ignore the facts.............as posted there is more then Solas involved each maritime nation has its rules and the funny thing is all you post you comfirm what I said in my first post' date=' that after the captian has done all he could, and his life is then in damage,then he can leave. No where does if say he must go down with his ship.

 

In other words with in the qouted case Scandinian Star the fires were beyond control and nothing further could be done. The fact that there was a court case showed the national Maritime laws reqiured the Master to stay until he did everything he could. When the facts were demostrated and the court saw that the Master had stayed until he could not do anything more, he and his Officers were found not guity.

 

Thier was nothing more then a hearing on the coward Avranas, who like the Concordia Master had his bags packed and was, with his officers the first to leave the ship. The Greek legal/court system was bribed to sweep it all under the rug. It really is a Maritime disgrace..........

 

You can keep pulling out Solas ...........but that is only one small part of the whole picture.

 

 

Of course since you say your a airline accident investigator, I am not sure I want to fly anymore as you dont seem to be able to understand something as simple as this.

 

 

AKK[/quote']

 

Skipper

 

Perhaps the female smurf's purported background as an airline accident investigator in the UK causes her to fall prey to the maxim: " If you are a hammer, everything you see looks like a nail".

[clive and anne]

Please correct me if I'm wrong TS but, as you say, there are all those holes in the side wont the polluted water spill out anyway, unless of course they block up the doors,portholes etc.

[Tonka's Skipper]

Skipper

 

Perhaps the female smurf's purported background as an airline accident investigator in the UK causes her to fall prey to the maxim: " If you are a hammer, everything you see looks like a nail".

 

 

You may have a point. I have ignored her for the last 6 months or so becuase I got tired of her twisted information. I think I will go back and ignore her again.......

 

AKK

[bigeck]

Hi,
Ive been away for a bit and missed a few pages of posts. I will catch up when I get a minute. Do they have a date when the salvage and movement will start

Alex

[Tonka's Skipper]

[quote name='clive and anne']Please correct me if I'm wrong TS but, as you say, there are all those holes in the side wont the polluted water spill out anyway, unless of course they block up the doors,portholes etc.[/quote]


I totally agree..........maybe that is something they just can't stop!

AKK

[SomeBeach]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]I've been wondering about the water inside the ship too. What will the force of it shifting do to the balance of raising Concordia? [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff]Clive, I've decided the funnel thing we've discussed is an illusion. ;) I think they removed the next portion down and stopped. Our looks shorter, looks taller was just dependent on whether a crane may have been blocking our view at different times.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=#0000ff]I'm not explaining that well so I hope you get what I'm trying to say. :D [/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=#0000ff][/COLOR][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff][/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Tonka's Skipper]

[quote name='SomeBeach'][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]I've been wondering about the water inside the ship too. What will the force of it shifting do to the balance of raising Concordia? [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff]Clive, I've decided the funnel thing we've discussed is an illusion. ;) I think they removed the next portion down and stopped. Our looks shorter, looks taller was just dependent on whether a crane may have been blocking our view at different times.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=#0000ff]I'm not explaining that well so I hope you get what I'm trying to say. :D [/COLOR][/FONT]

[/quote]

SB the actual righting of the vessel will be a very very very slow process for a number of reason one of which is so the free surface effect of the water in the vessel will be minimal..........hopefully *fingers crossed*

AKK

[SomeBeach]

[quote=Tonka's Skipper;36730000]SB the actual righting of the vessel will be a very very very slow process for a number of reason one of which is so the free surface effect of the water in the vessel will be minimal..........hopefully *fingers crossed*

AKK[/quote]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]I keep telling myself that is how it is suppose to work. ;)[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=#0000ff]I just hope the water understands that! :D[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[SomeBeach]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]Alex, months I've heard suggested are somewhere between June through Sept. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Rochesterboatingdotcom]

[quote name='SomeBeach'][FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=3][COLOR=blue]Sidari, thanks for the link. I am always fascinated by video that shows how they plan to remove the ship. When you think how they will only have one chance to get it right, it makes it all the more interesting. [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/quote]

...and on the CBS video the project manager estimated that one chance at a 70% chance of success.

[CostaSmurfette]

[quote name='Uniall']Skipper

Perhaps the female smurf's purported background as an airline accident investigator in the UK causes her to fall prey to the maxim: " If you are a hammer, everything you see looks like a nail".[/QUOTE]

awww sweetheart...you got it WRONG yet again, honeybunch...

I said I have STUDIED aircrashes for over 35 years...not INVESTIGATED them...

It would have been a great job had I the qualifications that it requires, such as a CPFL, for example (Google that if you are at all unsure what it might be, there's a good lad).

As for the SOLAS1974 regarding masters/captains staying aboard...some reading matter to enlighten you, my dear...

[url]http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-16611371[/url]

And I quote :

[quote]The first version of the treaty was passed in 1914, directly as a result of the sinking of the Titanic.

[B]The current version, passed in 1974, does not specify that the captain should stay with his ship but states that the captain, or master, has the ultimate authority aboard his ship.[/B]

In addition, it says all passenger ships must have a system for emergency management, which would set out who is responsible for what during an emergency situation. [B]This may or may not stipulate that the captain has to be the last to leave.[/B] [/quote]

[quote]"As the ship's master, you are trained to take command, to do everything so that the number of fatalities are reduced to the minimum," says Mr Schroder-Hinrichs.

"That said, when the ship is sinking, you do try to rescue your own life, but it's hard to quantify when. As long as your own life is not at risk and there are passengers on board, there is a strong moral obligation to stay," he says.

"If the captain of the Costa Concordia really left at such an early stage, it is not what the industry would expect in a legal or moral sense."

[B]As such, he says, it could prompt international regulators to re-assess the need for more precise rules.[/B][/quote]

;)

[Vampire Parrot]

[QUOTE]It would have been a great job had I the qualifications that it requires, such as a CPFL, for example (Google that if you are at all unsure what it might be, there's a good lad).[/QUOTE]

I did... and Google came up with no qualifications with that acronym.

And from the same BBC article you reference:

[QUOTE]Article 1097 of Italy's Maritime Law says that if the commander does not leave last, he risks two years in jail; if the vessel is lost, two to eight years; if the boat is used to carry people, three to 12 years.[/QUOTE]

VP Edited January 19, 2013 by Vampire Parrot

[Tonka's Skipper]

[quote name='Vampire Parrot']I did... and Google came up with no qualifications with that acronym.

And from the same BBC article you reference:



VP[/quote]


VP, All she can do is just throw Solas at you and forget all the others laws, and regulations involved.

AKK

[Uniall]

[quote name='Vampire Parrot']I did... and Google came up with no qualifications with that acronym.

And from the same BBC article you reference:



VP[/quote]

[quote=Tonka's Skipper;36742110]VP, All she can do is just throw Solas at you and forget all the others laws, and regulations involved.

AKK[/quote]

Vamp & Skipper

The most grievous error is a continuing failure to cite specific sources with links for independent verification or to cite specific education and experience on the subject sufficient to render an expert opinion.

This is compounded by an apparent reliance on "inductive reasoning" (vis a vis: deductive) which only leads to "possibly valid" conclusions. Even worse, sometimes, it appears it's made up along the way based upon stream of conscience thoughts derived from underlying socio-economic-ideological world view.

The result is a trans mutation of "Alice in Wonderland" from a work of fantasy fiction into historical treatise.

[CostaSmurfette]

Individual countries or states MAY require a captain/master to stay with his/her ship...BUT...under IMOSOLAS1974 there is NO LEGAL requirement to do so...they have left it to the individual states/countries to add that into their rules and regulations if they so wish.

Now, whether or not Italy has made it a requirement under THEIR maritime laws is one thing but it is certainly NOT a requirement under SOLAS1974 to remain with the ship.

It IS however, EXPECTED, that a captain should remain with their vessel under traditional circumstances.

The US may have made it mandatory to remain with the ship but you should NEVER measure any other country's standard by that of the US, the SOLAS1974 is open to interpretation, purposely so by the International Maritime Organisation.

People on this thread need to remember that just cos it is done in a certain way in the USA does NOT mean that the rest of the world is the same or that the rest of the world must comply with what the USA does.

Had there been no US citizens on the ship, this thread probably wouldn't have even been started anyway...one certainly wasn't when Sea Diamond sank in 2007 with two lives lost...

Some of you are so fixated on the USA way of doing things that you are blind to what is actually happening....and those who decry the way that Carnival Corp do things and see them as doing no wrong are either stockholders scared that their stock will dive when the truth comes out or just selective readers who are in total denial.

Get your heads out of the sand, leave the USA way of doing things to one side and start looking at this for what it is...an accident that was bound to happen and an accident that has been asking to happen for decades.

Carnival Corp DO put pressure on ports...I know this as a FACT from discussing it with those who have been watching what has been going on from a distance for many years...Concordia was not 100% functioning and had she belonged to ANY other corporation or company she would definitely have been impounded until fixed...but due to the size and weight of Carnival Corp and their huge number of ships that use the ports that Concroda was in prior to the accident, they most certainly put pressure on the ports to let her sail regardless of her condition.

You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee....The USA way is NOT the world way.

[Vampire Parrot]

[quote]The US may have made it mandatory to remain with the ship but you should NEVER measure any other country's standard by that of the US, the SOLAS1974 is open to interpretation, purposely so by the International Maritime Organisation.[/quote]When I stated "Article 1097 of Italy's Maritime Law says that if the commander does not leave last, he risks two years in jail; if the vessel is lost, two to eight years; if the boat is used to carry people, three to 12 years."
I am quoting the BBC news website, which is quoting Italian Maritime law.

Which is appropriate as the ship had an Italian Captain, was built in Italy, registered in Italy, and whose Classification Society is Italian (Registro Italiano Navale).

CS, are you saying that despite this, the Captain was not obliged to follow Italian Maritime Law?

VP

[Tonka's Skipper]

As always ............mis information being put out by the same person.

This is not just the US and its never been the Captian having to stay until the last person. It not just the US rules its, Norweign, British, Swedish, Itily and Canada that I know of. All that person has is Solas, which doesnt totally support her opinion.

It very easy to change the focus from the truth/facts and make this a US rules are the world rules. It is not.

When reading please note the person keeps leaving out facts and wanders in a fantasy world , trying to com people into believing her.

AKK Edited January 20, 2013 by Tonka's Skipper

[Uniall]

[quote name='CostaSmurfette']Individual countries or states MAY require a captain/master to stay with his/her ship...BUT...under IMOSOLAS1974 there is NO LEGAL requirement to do so...they have left it to the individual states/countries to add that into their rules and regulations if they so wish.

Now, whether or not Italy has made it a requirement under THEIR maritime laws is one thing but it is certainly NOT a requirement under SOLAS1974 to remain with the ship.

It IS however, EXPECTED, that a captain should remain with their vessel under traditional circumstances.

The US may have made it mandatory to remain with the ship but you should NEVER measure any other country's standard by that of the US, the SOLAS1974 is open to interpretation, purposely so by the International Maritime Organisation.

People on this thread need to remember that just cos it is done in a certain way in the USA does NOT mean that the rest of the world is the same or that the rest of the world must comply with what the USA does.

Had there been no US citizens on the ship, this thread probably wouldn't have even been started anyway...one certainly wasn't when Sea Diamond sank in 2007 with two lives lost...

Some of you are so fixated on the USA way of doing things that you are blind to what is actually happening....and those who decry the way that Carnival Corp do things and see them as doing no wrong are either stockholders scared that their stock will dive when the truth comes out or just selective readers who are in total denial.

Get your heads out of the sand, leave the USA way of doing things to one side and start looking at this for what it is...an accident that was bound to happen and an accident that has been asking to happen for decades.

Carnival Corp DO put pressure on ports...I know this as a FACT from discussing it with those who have been watching what has been going on from a distance for many years...Concordia was not 100% functioning and had she belonged to ANY other corporation or company she would definitely have been impounded until fixed...but due to the size and weight of Carnival Corp and their huge number of ships that use the ports that Concroda was in prior to the accident, they most certainly put pressure on the ports to let her sail regardless of her condition.

You guys need to wake up and smell the coffee....The USA way is NOT the world way.[/quote]


[SIZE=4][B]smurf[/B][/SIZE]

[SIZE=4][B]There you go again. It's just like I said before:[/B][/SIZE]


[quote name='Uniall']Vamp & Skipper

[SIZE=3]The most grievous error is a continuing failure to cite specific sources with links for independent verification or to cite specific education and experience on the subject sufficient to render an expert opinion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]This is compounded by an apparent reliance on "inductive reasoning" (vis a vis: deductive) which only leads to "possibly valid" conclusions. Even worse, sometimes, it appears it's made up along the way based upon stream of conscience thoughts derived from underlying socio-economic-ideological world view.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=3]The result is a trans mutation of "Alice in Wonderland" from a work of fantasy fiction into historical treatise[/SIZE].[/quote]

[SIZE="4"][B]PS
Just because a bunch of "one worlders" despise the concept of sovereign nations' rights to enact their own laws and only be bound by treaties, to which they voluntrrily agree, doesn't make it correct.[/B][/SIZE] Edited January 20, 2013 by Uniall