Noro on Princess

[ChevyCruiser]

Hi All

 

We have a couple of hospitals with closed wards just now, as they are having issues not just stopping its spread but killing it as well,

 

so if hospitals have major issues cruise ships do a good job cleaning when they get it onboard

 

 

yours Shogun

 

 

In 1973 or so, there was a Doctors strike in New York City. The death rate dropped dramatically. When it was all over, the spokesman for the Doctors explained the death rate drop by saying that people were cancelling or delaying elective surgery. As Home Simpson would say, DOHHH. People who don't go to the hospital avoid the hotbed of contaminated surfaces and thus don't catch the bugs and secondary infections.

 

Just remember to take precautions to protect yourself, treat any surface as contaminated and you'll be better off than the rest of the herd. Anytime you touch a contaminated surface, DO NOT touch anything that will be going in your mouth. Also, be very suspicious of any food worker wearing the MAGIC GLOVES.

 

A clean plastic/rubber glove is only clean until the wearer touches something contaminated. Just like a freshly washed hand is only clean until you touch something contaminated

[ChevyCruiser]

For those who are interested in protecting themselves and keeping an eye out for substandard food service pratices while onboard, here's a treatise that is chock full of good information and I urge you to read it. You'll see why I'm no fan of plastic gloves for food operations:

 

 

http://www.sproutnet.com/Reports/safe_hands.htm

 

Remember to take precautions to protect yourself, treat any surface as contaminated and you'll be better off than the rest of the herd. Anytime you touch a contaminated surface, DO NOT touch anything that will be going in your mouth. Also, be very suspicious of any food worker wearing the MAGIC GLOVES.

 

A clean plastic/rubber glove is only clean until the wearer touches something contaminated. Just like a freshly washed hand is only clean until you touch something contaminated

[dansu]

Hi All

 

Just an idea , what do you think,

As most Noro comes onboard with new passengers,

while not for the first 36hrs run the ship on full noro precautions,

Food served in buffet, no salt butter etc in MDR until diner of the 2nd night yours Shogun

 

I sent Princess an email asking just that two weeks ago today. I know they read my email as I have received three read receipts - two from the automated response and one read receipt with a person's email address...but still no response. The reply said two weeks...which is today.

 

I wanted to know what Pincess planned on doing differently, as I am taking my son and his girlfiend on the Caribbean Princess next February, and do not want them to experience what could only be described as terrifying experience.

 

We were on the Crown Princess January 28th to February 4th, and nothing to lead us to believe we were at risk until the second to last night when a lady collapsed outside the Michelangelo dining room...and later that night as we returned to our cabin (1:30 am) we saw people in what can only be described as HASMAT suits in our hallway about ten cabins down. The next morning I awoke to Captain Nash's voice in my cabin informing me that there had been an unprecedented amount of sick passengers...and the medical staff had been going non-stop all night.

 

The last day we discovered just what the deck attendants did...as they were now constantly seen disinfecting the deck area where we were sitting.

 

The store clerk told us she was under instruction to disinfect every twenty-five minutes.

 

Previously my DH commented on the fact that he had yet to see anyone cleaning the common areas.

 

People where violently ill in the common areas and cordoned off with yellow tape...Captain Nash made periodic announcements about the large amount of ill passengers...people where using the stairs - but not holding the railings...I used my passenger card to press the elevator button and four strangers called out their floors as if I was the elevator operator, all afraid to touch the buttons.

 

On our last night at sea, the lady sitting next to my husband, in the dining room, took ill. I had to go out and ask to have her service removed or move us. At first they told us no...when I explained that the lady left because she was feeling sick to her stomach...the Maitre'd literally tore off into the dining room and asked everyone at our table to get up quickly...take nothing off the table...and follow him to a new table. One gentleman went back for his chair and was told he could not take it...another chair quickly appeared.

 

Two people in HASMAT suits also quickly appeared...stripped the table of its contents (flowers and all) using the tablecloth as a receptacle...sealed the contents of a red bio-hazard bag...sprayed the table, chairs, and floor area all around the table...and left without saying a word.

 

People were taking pictures of the table being cleared. My husband jokingly said "she was seated next to me" and they started to take our pictures (beyond me why passengers wanted our picture)...there were six of us left at the table...we didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

 

The next morning, from our balcony, we saw people dressed in cleaning gear being briefed and led onto the ship.

 

We did our best to stay healthy...we kept our hands clean...carried, used and shared sani-gel (not sure what it was called...but it worked for us), used paper towels to open doors when using public restrooms, did not eat at the buffet...

 

The experience, as horrific as it was, won't stop me from taking vacations...but Princess needs to wake up...every voyage should be met with the same safety precautions they took after the virus was rampant...and not only when it reaches unprecedented (Caption Nash's actual words) levels .

[ChevyCruiser]

A great deal of the "deep cleaning" and other visible measures are just window dressing for the benefit of the PAX and news media. I'm not afraid of touching any surface anywhere, so long as I am able to wash my hands and/or sanitize them before I eat.

 

I am, however, concerned about the food service practices that I've observed on Princess ships and detailed in other postings. People need to be aware of the dangers of drinking from a glass that has been placed upside down on a table that may or may not have been sanitized properly after the last person ate there. People need to be aware of the dangers of laying their silverware down on a table that may or may not have been sanitized after the last person ate there. People need to be aware that their table was most likely set by the same person who cleared the table after the last people sat there, and did so without washing or sanitizing his/her hands.

 

The key to staying healthy on a ship, a bus, and airplane, subway or anywhere is to think cross-contamination and break the chain of contamination between those surfaces and what you put in your mouth - fingers, utensils, rim of the glass, etc.

 

Having a hand sanitizer squirt station at the door does little good if the staff scratch their hiney, bus tables, pick their nose, or whatever and then touch clean utensils to serve you.

 

Whenever I've pointed out these issues to Princess staff and supervisors onboard, all I ever receive is the big Okey Dokey response and nothing changes.

 

(BTW, I am medically trained and have supervised several sanitation programs for public organizations, and have conducted countless food service sanitation inspections of food operations)

[akupupule]

The following is some research on "Germstar Norovirus" product

 

Cato

 

Which hand sanitizers kill stomach flu viruses?

 

Answer: Germstar®Noro

 

 

 

Washing your hands with soap and water is the best way to get rid of the gastroenteritis viruses. It does not kill them but it washes them off your hands and down the drain. But when you can’t get to a sink, you need something else. Regular 62% alcohol hand sanitizer gels such as regular Purell® do a great job killing rotavirus but are not that great at killing norovirus1 (they are better than nothing, though).

The company Germstar® has specifically designed a hand sanitizer that kills norovirus! It is called Germstar®Noro. It's active ingredient is 63% ethanol. So, how could this possibly work when the regular 62% alcohol products don't work very well? I contacted the company to find out. I read their ingredient list, read their test results, and e-mailed the scientist who did the tests. This is what I learned. Germstar®Noro contains an emollient complex that makes it work better. The phrase "emollient complex" probably sounds fishy to you (like an anti-wrinkle cream commercial). Basically, they have added some extra ingredients that make the alcohol work much better. They also did not add glycerin (which most alcohol hand gels contain). They found that the glycerin "protects" the viruses. I believe their results and I trust that Germstar®Noro does kill norovirus, especially since the scientist who tested Germstar®Noro (Dr. Syed Sattar) is one of the top researchers in the field. Germstar®Noro is currently only available to purchase on the company's website. They are trying hard to get their product in stores. I ordered some Germstar®Noro and I really like it. It is a liquid that comes in a spray bottle. It dries really nice with no stickiness. Like all alcohol hand sanitizers, it stings my knuckles in the winter when they are dry and chapped. Therefore, I usually just put it on my palms and fingers. I don't eat with my knuckles, anyway. I recommend getting the 2oz bottles for carrying in your purse and smallest bottle shaped like a pen for carrying in your pocket.

The makers of Purell® have stumbled upon the same concept as Germstar®. GOJO Industries has developed Purell® VF 447 (also know as VF 481), which contains 70% ethanol and polyquaternium 371. They found that adding this additional ingredient, significantly increases the products ability to kill norovirus. However, they are not selling Purell®VF477 to the general public at this time.

An EMT wrote to me and told me about a great hand sanitizer that kills norovirus. It is called DehHyze Foaming Hand Sanitizer and he said they use it on their ambulances. This product seems very impressive to me. It's active ingredient is Benzalkonium Chloride. One downside is that Benzalkonium Chloride has been implicated in the creation of antibiotic resistant bacteria2. It can be ordered here.

http://www.buyemp.com/product/11229871.html.

Internet rumors say that Wet Ones® Antibacterial Wipes kill norovirus. The active ingredient, benzethonium chloride, supposedly kills norovirus. Benzethonium chloride is related to benzalkonium chloride so it may work. However, I can not find any experiments that tested whether or not benzethonium chloride kills norovirus. If you know of these experiments, please let me know. I contacted the Playtex® company (on January 8, 2009) who makes Wet Ones® Antibacterial wipes, and they told me that their wipes have not been tested for their ability to kill norovirus or rotavirus.

If anyone knows of another hand sanitizer for which there is proof that it kills rotavirus and norovirus, please let us all know.

--Annie Pryor, Ph.D.

 

Since this is a copy and paste of a post from another forum, I'll copy and paste my post as well since I believe the Facts should be known:.:rolleyes:...

 

"There seems to be a lot of misinformation about effective Hand Sanitizers that will kill Norovirus. There are many claims from Brands that I view as blatantly FALSE. For example Germstar has a "special" alcohol formulation that it claims will kill Norovirus in "20 seconds". There have also been many unsubstantiated posts about the effectiveness of Benzalkonium Chloride hand wipes. The FACTS from the CDC and the NIH are that there is NO effective hand sanitizer that will EFFECTIVELY kill Norovirus. Effectively means that in under 1 minute will produce Norovirus reductions to >4.0Log10. Tests show that QUATS and Benzalkonium Chlorides will reduce FCV to >4.0Log10 in 10 minutes. Alcohol based sanitizers will reduce FCV to >4.7Log10 in 10 minutes. So both can make the claims that their products kill Norovirus. But they are really not EFFECTIVE if they take 10 minutes! CDC says only hand washing is effective at reducing the transmission of Norovirus. The only disinfectants recommended by CDC is chlorine bleach and iodine preparations. You don't want those on your hands or your clothes. "

 

here's the short version:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dvrd/revb/...ies-fs-508.pdf

 

Here's the long version:

 

http://www.cdc.gov/hicpac/norovirus/...idence-q3.html

__________________

[lynwar]

We didn't do much differently than usual on our last cruise-maybe use the sanitizer each time we went to the buffet-since it was there, overseen by a staff person. We depended on the staff to get our drinks or got them ourselves (mainly my coffee).

The point is, that we didn't get sick from touching surfaces or having staff get our food or drink. We didn't Lysol our room, either. So, I think it is the luck of the draw. Our Ruby Princess cruise didn't have the outbreak-it came on as we were getting off.

My thought is, that it depends on the circumstances surrounding a particular cruise. Our crew might have started to get ill from someone on our cruise the last day, or someone took it on after us. As stated on another post. Toward the end of our cruise I noticed a couple talking with an older gentleman asking him if he was feeling any better. They didn't seem to be bothered by whatever was ailing him. This was outside by the aft pool. The man was eating breakfast and didn't exhibit open symptoms.

We just don't know when something like this is going to hit. We've been on 13 cruises and have managed to stay well. The percentage goes up of getting something each time we go. Hubby got some sort of "bronchial thing" a couple of nights before the end, but it wasn't the virus.

 

Let's hope the worst of it is over.

 

Lynne

[jeromep]

Sounds like a good idea to me. I am considering eating on the MDR for breakfast & lunch the first couple of days in hopes of avoiding the noro. Haven't decided if it will do any good.

 

Actually, eating MDR food, and any other food on board that is served by a waiter or directly from the cook, (burger bar and pizza bar) is a good idea in the long run. The quality of the food from the MDR, the IC and from the burger and pizza bars on the Lido, along with room servicer, are far better than the food found in the buffet. So, why eat less desireable food and potentially get exposed to a virus at the same time? Life's too short to do that.

 

I think food should be served in the Buffet ALL the time, salt shakers should be cleaned between every sitting at each table and butter should be served in individually wrapped pats like in many restaurants.

 

I agree with this also. The buffets need to be redesigned to handle the volume of passengers that may use it while at the same time having food service employees dishing out the food.

 

Salt and pepper in the buffets should be individual packets and other condiments should also be individual packets. I agree that butter should also be individual servings rather than a communial dish.

 

My wife and I avoid buffet food for a number of reasons, but one of them is the handling of the serving implements.

[fathercop]

I wonder if through all of these threads on CC, under each of the different cruise lines, with all of the information posted, how many people know the difference between a virus and a bacteria. I also wonder if people understand that the protein that is the norovirus is not destroyed by anti bacterial agents.

 

It still surprises me that people think Princess is not doing the right or correct things about trying to remove the virus. Now that may be the case, or it may not be, but conjecture is never the best way to prove a point. Yet, making conjectures seems to be very Americana.

 

I heard someone say once that we often live by this statement, "I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Don't confuse me with the facts or the truth."

 

I think it is time that moderators put this issue as a sticky to which people can reply, like they did with the smoking policy discussion. This topic just goes round and round and round and gets no where.

[AmberTeka]

Now if Princess only did some of these things. We were on the Crown Princess sailing of Dec.17,2011. I was quarantined..husband was never ill. It was the worst cruise of my life. Actually the only bad one, and it was a bummer. Princess charged me for my meds..never even got an apology...all of that money...down the drain. So. It happens. It is over.

But on the Carnival Freedom two weeks ago, I noticed..most of the buffet food is served by staff. The salad bar sections are served by the guest..but all others...are by the staff. The dessert station also self served but it was pre sliced and required very little handling.

 

Carnival was clean. clean. clean. Sanitizers were everywhere. Most of the people on the cruse ( to Panama, Costa Rica) were older passengers. Not one case of norvo reported.

It made all of the difference in the world.

 

I loved Princess. Now I am afraid to book it again.We have cruised a good bit in the past seven years..and that cruise...was the worst. The ship, IMHO, was not managed well, no one knew what was going on..and thus suspected the worse. Bad trip. And the Crown is a lovely ship. Just lovely.

[Teddy11]

We just got off the Crown Princess last Saturday. We were extremely worried about catching noro on board, but were ok. There did not seem to be any outbreaks that week. We used Veripur Hand Sanitizer Moisturizer throughout the week, which stays on your hands for 4 hours.

[ChevyCruiser]

We just got off the Crown Princess last Saturday. We were extremely worried about catching noro on board, but were ok. There did not seem to be any outbreaks that week. We used Veripur Hand Sanitizer Moisturizer throughout the week, which stays on your hands for 4 hours.

 

Hey Teddy, what did you observe in the Horizon Court?

 

1) Were the tables pre-set with silverware, coffee cups, tumblers when you arrived? Were the tumblers/cups upside down on the "clean" table?

 

2) Did the staff who bussed the tables wash/sanitize their hands before they reset the tables with "clean" utensils?

 

3) Were any of the staff wearing the "magic gloves" and if so, did they ever change them?

 

Just curious if Princess has improved. From my observations in the past, the Horizon Court is a hotbed of opportunities for cross-contamination due to Princess' sub-standard food service sanitation practices.

[zacc]

I wonder if through all of these threads on CC, under each of the different cruise lines, with all of the information posted, how many people know the difference between a virus and a bacteria. I also wonder if people understand that the protein that is the norovirus is not destroyed by anti bacterial agents.

 

It still surprises me that people think Princess is not doing the right or correct things about trying to remove the virus. Now that may be the case, or it may not be, but conjecture is never the best way to prove a point. Yet, making conjectures seems to be very Americana.

 

I heard someone say once that we often live by this statement, "I know what I know. I believe what I believe. Don't confuse me with the facts or the truth."

 

I think it is time that moderators put this issue as a sticky to which people can reply, like they did with the smoking policy discussion. This topic just goes round and round and round and gets no where.

This is an excellent idea! Hope the moderators agree.

[ChevyCruiser]

From a CDC report:

 

Despite the decrease in 2007, norovirus was still the leading cause of reported outbreaks and outbreak-related illnesses. Norovirus contamination can occur before the point of food preparation and service, as indicated by recent multistate and international norovirus outbreaks associated with oysters, raspberries, and delicatessen meat (6--8). The large number of norovirus foodborne outbreaks indicates a need for continued attention to preventing food contamination by food employees who come into contact with ready-to-eat foods. Norovirus outbreaks are thought to largely result from contamination of food via the unwashed or improperly washed hands of food workers shedding norovirus in their stools. Enhanced food safety training for food employees that work with ready-to eat foods, and the presence of a certified food protection manager in food service and retail establishments, as recommended by the Food and Drug Administration's (FDA) Food Code,** might help to reduce the number of outbreaks and outbreak-related illnesses resulting from contamination in food service establishments, if adopted by all states and territories. To date, 49 of 50 states and three of six U.S. territories have adopted codes patterned after versions of the FDA Food Code (9), but the specific components of individual state regulations vary.

[06jds377]

Ruby is back in port with yet another outbreak and delayed embarkation. Pretty sure we're the first ones here.

[mdmc]

We are going to be on her next week. Hope your week goes well and you have a great time!

[Shogun]

Hi There

 

Princess got the Crown clean they will get the Ruby clean as well,

 

yours Shogun