Cunard Captains

[Richard Schmidt]

Richard,

 

No, we just don't make unsupported assertions, then are rude about people who hold different opinions to our own!

 

So far, from you, we've had 'Get Real!', 'Keep drinking the Cool Aid! (to a Captain, no less), have 'no experience or appreciation' and are now being 'naive or disengenuous'. And you think this strengthens your case?

 

For example, if someone was to show that a Cunard captain commanded a significantly higher salary than a Princess one, then I would be persuaded that there is indeed a demonstrative difference in 'prestige'. What would persuade you? Now of course this data may be unknown or unknowable, but it would at least enable the discussion to proceed on the basis of fact, rather than assertion, and in some cases, vulgar abuse.

 

Dear Guernseyguy,

 

I am flattered you are following my postings so closely. If you examine your own bon mots on this board you will find you are as much a "sniper" as anyone, includuding myself. What would you have me say of the assertion that a Princess command is as good, or perhaps even better, than that of a Cunard Queen? It flies in the face of logic, experience and common sense.

Money is not a measure of success or prestige. First-year civil lawyers in my area make more money than seasoned prosecutors, who have scores of trials under their belts. The civil attorneys act, essentially, as law clerks, researching issues others will argue about in court. They work long hours with little recognition, no glory, zero discretion, less power, and way less fun than a stockboy at your local grocery market. In 25 years as a prosecutor I have met few of my colleauges who would trade their badge (and portfolio of really funny stories) for the well-compensated banality of life in a private law firm.

 

To the Captain you refer to, my apologies, Sir. Unlike most, I fly under my own flag on these boards, but I appreciate the fact that you cannot, given your position in the "industry." If you do not already, then my wish for you is that you may command a Cunard liner someday. I do not doubt you would do a superlative job and be as proud and proprietary about your command as Captains Wright and McNaught. Bon Voyage.

 

Richard Schmidt

[Richard Schmidt]

Richard,

 

December 2004 crossing. Heavy Seas? Are you joking? I was on board and at worst the weather was only moderate. She hardly even rolled or pitched. The weather that was forecast did not materialise. How passengers can judge a ship's performance from the comfort of a bar stool is beyond me!

 

Why do you seem to think that any ship other than QE2 is a demotion? You have not the slightest idea what pride ANY shipmaster has in his ship. To say that Princess captain or any other captain doesn't have the same pride in his ship is rather a broad and silly statement. How could you possibly know?

Have you ever spoken to any Princess captains ? Or any other captains for that matter?

 

Now I can tell you that you are wrong because I've done it!!!!!! I went to sea in the same year as Ian Mc Naught and I received my Certificate of Competency as Master (Foreign-Going) a year before he did. I was promoted to command in 1982... at the grand old age of 29. My ship was a large conventional general-cargo ship of 15,000 tons with a crew of 75. I have always had the greatest pride in all of my ships, regardless of size or trade route. The only ship that I would quote gladly forget about was the EUROLINER, the world's first gas-turbine container ship. In 1972 I was Third Officer in her, North Atlantic run.... all years round... not just in the 'summer season'. At that time there were obnly two ships on the North Atlantoic that were faster than us.... the QE2 and the FRANCE. Anyone that tells you that they enjoy sailing back and forth on the North Atlantic at 28 knots is being economical with the truth!!!!!

 

I can appreciate that you enjoy sailing in QE2. I know I do. That is the reason I've made 24 voyage in QE2.... 19 of them Atlantic crossings, plus two crossings in the OLD Queen Elizabeth!!!!! I have also cruised in other ships and the pride that other shipmasters and their crews is equal to anything I've observed in QE2.

 

Stephen

 

Dear Captain,

 

If you read my posts carefully you will see that I never suggested Masters of other ships have less pride in their commands. While I have never had the grave responsibilities that fall on the shoulders of those who contend with the sea for a living, I have, and do, lead people in a serious undertaking. I remember my first small "command" with as much pride as I feel for my current assignment, and I apologize if my remarks have vexed you in any way.

That being said I think you will agree there can be a bit of "home-team" pride among Captains of such lines as Cunard, and that they may wish to remain with their ships. Change can be seen as a demotion.

As to the conditions on the December crossing, the Force 8 winds and 10 and 12 meter waves we encountered were "heavy" in contrast to the flat calms I encountered on two previous crossings on QE2. I actually welcomed the more turbulent weather as it what I was looking for in a trans-Atlantic crossing. I have no doubt you have weathered conditions sodangerous as would make most people terrified, so it is understandable that you and I will have differing notions as to what "heavy" seas are.

For what it is worth, I must tell you my observations of QE2 in the (heavy? moderate?) seas of the December crossing were not made from a barstool. I found the teak promenade below the life boats a great place to watch the ocean despite the 65-70 mph wind over the deck.

I respect your accomplishments and your point of view. To the extent we disagree, perhaps we can find a way to do so without rancor. I wish you the best, Captain.

 

Richard

[guernseyguy]

What would you have me say of the assertion that a Princess command is as good, or perhaps even better, than that of a Cunard Queen? It flies in the face of logic, experience and common sense.

Money is not a measure of success or prestige.

 

Richard,

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that a Princess command is better than a Cunard one - it is equally foolish as to suggesting the reverse - and the assertions have all been the other way. What is the logic, experience or common sense which this flies in the face of?

 

Since we are unlikely to be able to agree on an 'absolute' measure of success or prestige we have to rely on relative perceptions. To you, it is clear that a Cunard command is more prestigeous than a Princess one, and as a Cunard passenger I am not surprised that you hold that view. Whether that is true of non-Cunard passengers, or Princess passengers we don't know, and may not unreasonably argue is not necessarily the case. There being many more Princess passengers than Cunard passengers, and very many more non-passengers of both, to extrapolate from Cunard passengers' views to a 'global' view may be an extrapolation too far.

 

And in a capitalist society, while I would wholeheartedly agree that money is not the measure of success or prestige, I find it a little curious that you deny that it is 'a' measure. Many would argue that it is too much of a measure.

 

Peter

[cruisin'fool2]

Richard,

 

I don't think anyone has suggested that a Princess command is better than a Cunard one - it is equally foolish as to suggesting the reverse - and the assertions have all been the other way. What is the logic, experience or common sense which this flies in the face of?

 

Peter

 

Peter,

 

Wasn't it you who said in your initial report from the QM2 concerning the transfers that the "QM2 is seen as a great 'prize' among Princess Captains - great for the CV and all"?? What has changed since then?

 

Mike

[PRINSENDAM]

Dear Captain,

 

If you read my posts carefully you will see that I never suggested Masters of other ships have less pride in their commands. While I have never had the grave responsibilities that fall on the shoulders of those who contend with the sea for a living, I have, and do, lead people in a serious undertaking. I remember my first small "command" with as much pride as I feel for my current assignment, and I apologize if my remarks have vexed you in any way.

 

 

Very much so!!!!!!:)

 

That being said I think you will agree there can be a bit of "home-team" pride among Captains of such lines as Cunard, and that they may wish to remain with their ships. Change can be seen as a demotion.

 

 

'Home team' pride can be found on every ship. It really doesn't belong exclusively to Cunard. The Princess captains getting command of the two Cunarders will have pride in their ship and likewise when the Cunard gentlemen go to Princess they will exhibit the same pride in their new commands. I would be very surprised if they didn't.

 

As to the conditions on the December crossing, the Force 8 winds and 10 and 12 meter waves we encountered were "heavy" in contrast to the flat calms I encountered on two previous crossings on QE2. I actually welcomed the more turbulent weather as it what I was looking for in a trans-Atlantic crossing. I have no doubt you have weathered conditions so dangerous as would make most people terrified, so it is understandable that you and I will have differing notions as to what "heavy" seas are.

 

I've found that heavy seas on the North Atlantic tend to get heavier in the telling... like the fish that got away. ;)

 

 

 

For what it is worth, I must tell you my observations of QE2 in the (heavy? moderate?) seas of the December crossing were not made from a barstool. I found the teak promenade below the life boats a great place to watch the ocean despite the 65-70 mph wind over the deck.

 

You do know, you can still see the waves from the Midships Bar stools?

 

No need to sit out on deck. The officers on the bridge don't. They keep the doors shut and the electric heaters on full blast!

 

 

I respect your accomplishments and your point of view. To the extent we disagree, perhaps we can find a way to do so without rancor. I wish you the best, Captain.

 

Richard

 

 

 

 

Thanks Richard, but I am not at sea any more.

I did only one stint as Chief Officer in a passenger ship and I didn't care for it at all. I thought it dreadfully dull... like being on a ferry. Not like 'real' ships! I also found that a lot of officers were there because they couldn't find anything better or that they were afraid to get their hands dirty. Thankfully that is not the case with most officers by any means.

OK.... I've been told that Captain McNaught will be going to the SUN PRINCESS and Paul Wright is going to the DIAMOND PRINCESS.

If you happen to be on the E2 or M2 this year and sail with one of the Princess captains, get to know them. I think you will be impressed.

Stephen

[guernseyguy]

Peter' date='

 

Wasn't it you who said in your initial report from the QM2 concerning the transfers that the "QM2 is seen as a great 'prize' among Princess Captains - great for the CV and all"?? What has changed since then?

 

Mike[/quote']

 

Mike,

 

I was reporting the view of a QM2 Officer.

 

Since then, I've had time to reflect, and consider the views of other posters (some with yer actual experience) and come to my own conclusions.

 

To borrow a phrase of J M Keynes, when challenged on his changed opinion. 'When the facts change, I change my mind - what do you do sir?'

 

I know in this case we have precious few 'facts' but I know where I have read cogent reasoned arguement....and other approaches.

 

Peter

[guernseyguy]

I've been told that Captain McNaught will be going to the SUN PRINCESS and Paul Wright is going to the DIAMOND PRINCESS.

 

Does this tell us anything about 'secondment'?

 

Wright to one of the newest, large 'Grand Class' ships cruising Alaska, followed by a Trans-Pacific to Osaka, down through South East Asia to Australia (I thought Princess ships weren't allowed across oceans...;) ) - wouldn't be of any use for a QM2 World Cruise in 2007 I suppose?

 

McNaught to smaller, older vessel (British Registered...getting to know her before transfer to Cunard???) on the Alaska/Caribbean run..

 

..food for thought...or not.....?

 

Peter

[KenC]

Hey Peter ..... and I heard they were going to rename Sun Princess as Duchess of Cornwall - how FAB is that ?????

 

don't choke on that one .....

 

Ken

[guernseyguy]

Hey Peter ..... and I heard they were going to rename Sun Princess as Duchess of Cornwall - how FAB is that ?????

 

don't choke on that one .....

 

Ken

 

Oh I don't know...how about Duchess of Rothesay......or that charming Sophie Wessex, affectionately known to her staff by her title's initials, and more formally as the Countess Of Wessex.....

 

Really Ken.....we shouldn't be giving them ideas....think about Sarah Fergusson's profile in the US.......:eek:

 

Peter

[cruisin'fool2]

I predict, by this time next year, that Cunard will cease to exist, that plans for the Queen Victoria will be scrapped, and that the QM2 and the QE2 (if it is not already on the junk heap) will simply be absorbed by Princess Cruises. Unfortunately, I really believe this is the direction in which Carnival/Princess is headed. After all, if the entire administrative staff is merged, the entire sales force is merged and all of the captains are merged, what is to keep the powers that be from taking that final step and merging the two brands into one entity as well?

 

Mike:(

[guernseyguy]

I predict' date=' by this time next year, that Cunard will cease to exist, that plans for the Queen Victoria will be scrapped, and that the QM2 and the QE2 (if it is not already on the junk heap) will simply be absorbed by Princess Cruises. Mike:([/quote']

 

Mike,

 

I look forward to a year from now when I have no doubt we will both be delighted that you were wrong!

 

What is to be gained from writing off the huge 'goodwill' and 'heritage' that is Cunard? What could possibly be the rationale for that? Do you think Mickey Arison is going to stand idly by as his newest toy gets trashed? Princess' job is to prove they can make a success of running Cunard - not ruining it!

 

And much as the QM2 is a very fine liner, she's a pretty indifferent Princess cruise ship - very poor pool space compared to the Grand Class, for example.

 

And nowhere near enough berths - heck Princess can get 2,600 in Paul Wright's Diamond Princess at 113,000 tonnes, while the QM2 only manages the same number in 150,000 tonnes - so pro-rata she'll need another 850 berths or 425 cabins.....

 

Take a deep breath.......;)

 

Peter

[KenC]

Peter .... you may be right. Perhaps Camilla might be a more fitting figurehead for EASYcruise.

 

Mike .... that really is a lot of tosh you know. Almost as much tosh as has been written on this board about Cunard captains being demoted from heaven to serve on other ships.

 

Regards

 

Ken

[carlmm]

I predict' date=' by this time next year, that Cunard will cease to exist[/quote']

I look forward to a year from now when I have no doubt we will both be delighted that you were wrong!

 

And what will be left besides the brand name?

Peter, yourself pointed out so many of the negative changes. Many Cunard guests could write pages about those nice features they are sorry to loose. The demotion of Cunard captains is just one part of the demolition.

Still having some marketing hype under the name "Cunard" is no substitution.

 

Stephen at least admitted that Cunard, as so many of us knew and loved it, has already been destroyed.

Cunard as a seperate operating company has ceased to exist.

there is no such thing as 'Cunard ranks' any more. It ceased to exist last year when Princess took over the management of Cunard. The cold hard fact is that the people who once worked for Cunard and now employees of Princess.

 

Now, some people might regard this as just fine. Others do not and have IMHO all reason and right to express their dismay.

 

What is to be gained from writing off the huge 'goodwill' and 'heritage' that is Cunard? What could possibly be the rationale for that? Do you think Mickey Arison is going to stand idly by as his newest toy gets trashed? Princess' job is to prove they can make a success of running Cunard - not ruining it!

 

This is indeed a good question!

Especially if, as I learn from some posters here, Cunard provided a higher level of service and quality in the first years of Carnival ownership than it did during some earlier downtimes.

Did Carnival loose a lot of money when they owned Cunard but respected its distinct heritage and way to treat guests?

Or is it that Princess' job is not to prove they can make a success of running Cunard but only of running this big ship currently called QM2?

[guernseyguy]

The demotion of Cunard captains is just one part of the demolition. Still having some marketing hype under the name "Cunard" is no substitution. Stephen at least admitted that Cunard, as so many of us knew and loved it, has already been destroyed. Now, some people might regard this as just fine. Others do not and have IMHO all reason and right to express their dismay.

 

OK, where to start.....

1. Demotion - perception of some posters on this board, factually incorrect.
   
2. Demolition - Britannia fixed through import of Princess Maitre 'D - never acknowledged as inconsistent with 'Princess wreckers' theory. Is anyone seriously arguing that it ran better under 'Cunard'?
   
3. Destruction of Cunard as an independent line happened decades ago - that crew on Cunard ships are going to be given more development opportunities across a broader fleet is either denied, dismissed or ignored.
   
4. Disagreement is about substance of what is happening (see 1-3 above) and interpretation thereof. People having strong feelings may blind them to alternative interpretations of the 'facts', or to ignore them entirely as inconsistent with 'Princess wreckers' theory.
   

Say after me 'No Carnival, No Cunard, No QM2 and very probably no QE2'. Given that, if you were Carnival, how would you manage Cunard? As an independent stand alone line with TWO ships? Or would you put it with a line that has a lot of experience managing ships? And if so, which one?

 

Simply wailing 'I want my Cunard back!' is not a solution. Its gone, and denouncing the guardians of what remains is unlikely to prove fruitful. Construtive suggestions, addressing why what Princess thinks is a good idea, may be a bad idea (eg relocation to Brooklyn) may get us further.

 

Peter

[PRINSENDAM]

 

 

This is indeed a good question!

Especially if, as I learn from some posters here, Cunard provided a higher level of service and quality in the first years of Carnival ownership than it did during some earlier downtimes.

Did Carnival loose a lot of money when they owned Cunard but respected its distinct heritage and way to treat guests?

Or is it that Princess' job is not to prove they can make a success of running Cunard but only of running this big ship currently called QM2?

 

 

Carl,

 

I do not think for a single moment that Princess are out to deliberately destroy Cunard or the brand. It would be as daft as shooting themselves in the foot. They would gain nothing by it at all. Give them time. I think we will see more things 'put right' than changed for the worse. We shall see.

 

 

Heard today... the next captain on QE2 will be David Perkins who comes from the ROYAL PRINCESS... but was previously captain on CARONIA and Staff Captain on QE2. So, here we have first hand an example of what Princess has done. They took a captain off CARONIA, put him on the ROYAL to introduce him to Princess management and have now but him back on a Cunarder. Makes perfect sense to me.

 

Stephen

[guernseyguy]

And what will be left besides the brand name?

 

A brand is a function of a product and the relationship that consumers have with that product. I suspect what is happening for some passengers, is that as (in most aspects) the functionality of the brand improves (ie better service in Britannia), the 'emotional relationship' is deteriorating as their previous beliefs about the brand (e.g. an 'independent' Cunard) are inevitably exposed as misplaced. I'm not sure there is a solution to that. There always was a strong element of 'collective fantasy' about Cunard...and if it is now failing for some passengers thats a pity, but not unsurprising.

 

However, if the service Cunard offers differs from that of Princess, and retains supportable elements of its heritage, then we will not only have a brand name, but also a brand. There are many areas where having common products make sense, others where they do not.

 

Meanwhile, the day Cunard moves to 'Personal Choice' Dining - I'll see you at the lifeboats!

 

Peter

[carlmm]

Demotion - perception of some posters on this board, factually incorrect.

Of course, in this discussion demotion is highly defined by its emotional and subjective side. In fact, many people feel it is a demotion.

Let's label it neutral the transfer of officers from Cunard to Princess and vice versa. Does this wording make me happier? Both sides arguments extensively discussed in this threat are still valid, and I still prefer a captain with years of Cunard training over one who was never part of Cunard before, if it is just for his identification with Cunard.

Demolition - Britannia fixed through import of Princess Maitre 'D - never acknowledged as inconsistent with 'Princess wreckers' theory. Is anyone seriously arguing that it ran better under 'Cunard'?

Now it becomes tricky. Already a year ago posters on this board argued that the QM2 does not deliver what Cunard was or should be about. Even now, according to you, Peter, the Britannia Restaurant is not even on par to the Mauretania Restaurant. Thus, what is the right comparison? Carnival built QM2 now to QM2 last year? Or, for not going too far back, Cunard now to Cunard (QE2, Caronia) in let's say 2002?

To be fair, my and some other peoples comparisons might sometimes go to an ideal version of Cunard.

Destruction of Cunard as an independent line happened decades ago - that crew on Cunard ships are going to be given more development opportunities across a broader fleet is either denied, dismissed or ignored.

At least until recently Cunard had an own president, a sales team, captains, officers, hotel managers, maitres, stewards and so on, who (of course just some, but a sufficient number) grew up with Cunard, who gave it is personality. The new situation now is that there is nobody left who is really dedicated to Cunard. On management level this is a deliberate decision; Officers, crew and staff are denied to continue their personal attachment.

Even from a pure business point of view this ignores the importance of corporate identity. Unless, of course, you do not want a Cunard identity but a common Princess one.

Disagreement is about substance of what is happening (see 1-3 above) and interpretation thereof. People having strong feelings may blind them to alternative interpretations of the 'facts', or to ignore them entirely as inconsistent with 'Princess wreckers' theory.

Do I need to response that this could work in the opposite direction, too? Instead lets hope together that Cunard indeed retains or regains the important elements of its heritage who ever owns it.

 

Finally I hope we will never have to meet at the lifeboats but can do so at the bar of a Cunard liner.

[APH]

Captain Perkins is due to join Sea Princess May 28th for a short stint. As pointed out above he will then move back to Cunard and then onto the QE2.

 

Hope this helps!

[guernseyguy]

I still prefer a captain with years of Cunard training over one who was never part of Cunard before.

 

Carl, so the news that;

• the next captain on QE2 will be David Perkins who comes from the ROYAL PRINCESS... but was previously captain on CARONIA and Staff Captain on QE2
  

is I presume perfectly acceptable, you being a reasonable chap & all?

 

The more intriguing question which has struck me is from that post from the Princess Board, about another transfer from Princess:

• The senior most Brittish Captain from Princess, Bernard Warner, will be moving over to Cunard for his next contract.
  

Is his seniority in 'Britishness' or in 'Princess', is he more British than other British Captains at Princess.....or was it meant as 'The most senior British Captain'.....anyone know?

 

IF Mr Warner has never set foot on a Cunarder before I don't fancy his chances at the Captain's Table the first time he eats his peas with his knife.....On the other hand, a Brit in Princess has probably had decades of P&O experience with Brits......and if he can cope with them, I'm sure he can cope with the cousins....

 

 

To be fair, my and some other peoples comparisons might sometimes go to an ideal version of Cunard.

 

Very true....Rose Tinted specs all round one fears.....That said, an ideal is useful, as long as we don't let the best become the enemy of the good.

 

Finally I hope we will never have to meet at the lifeboats but can do so at the bar of a Cunard liner.

 

I'll drink to that!:)

 

Peter

[cruisin'fool2]

• The senior most Brittish Captain from Princess, Bernard Warner, will be moving over to Cunard for his next contract.
  

Presumably, Warner will go to the QM2 then. Since I believe he's currently assigned to the Diamond Princess, he and Wright would simply swap places. Anyone know how soon that will happen? Are the contracts on a six-month basis?

[Jeanne S]

Actually I think he's the second... Though the first was many years ago. Stephen probably knows the details of this, I think it was he who unearthed them to begin with.

 

I don't know him personally (the American officer, not Stephen) but I know a lot of people who do and he is certainly a lover of ships and from what I understand is very good at his job too... Though I gather from some comments made on this board that there are people out there (ironically, mostly Americans) who seem to resent the presence or possible presence of non-British officers on Cunard.

 

 

.

 

We were impressed with him also (#2) and Captain seemed fond of him. Perhaps we misunderstood Captain Wright, that this officer would be the first QM2 not Cunard?

 

When we first met the new Social Hostess on QM2, Melissa Ng A Mann, we were surprised she was not from the UK as Melanie or Maureen, however, she turned out to be my personal favorite.

[Jeanne S]

Tom,

 

Unfortunately there is no such thing as 'Cunard ranks' any more.

 

 

Stephen

 

What about Captain and Commodore?

[Jeanne S]

His name is Ben Lyons and he joined QM2 while in the shipyard. He came to Cunard by way of the PATRIOT (American Hawaii) and a few dirty old tankers.

 

Stephen

 

Thanks. We have some nice pics of him, Captain and Cunarder (Ed) and his family teaching how to steer the ship, ring the horn, explaining the flags and caps. Have never been on a bridge tour with such an friendly and informative group of officers. Although on QE2 in Sept 2002 to Bermuda, Captain Wright had open call (he did not attend) in port and we could just walk into the bridge, sit in the Captain's chair, and literally hang out. Then we posed for photos in various officier's hats and spoke with Commander who chatted us up for a good 20 min.

[Jeanne S]

POSTED by Stephen: [.... I've been told that Captain McNaught will be going to the SUN PRINCESS and Paul Wright is going to the DIAMOND PRINCESS.

 

Is the DIAMOND PRINCESS the new ship that will be out of NYC to the Carribean?

[guernseyguy]

Presumably' date=' Warner will go to the QM2 then. Since I believe he's currently assigned to the Diamond Princess, he and Wright would simply swap places. [/quote']

 

Andy, who posted earlier in this thread has posted the following on the Princess Board:

 

Captain Perkins will join Sea Princess on May 28th for a short stint before moving back to Cunard and onto QE2.

 

Captain McNaught will join Sun Princess in a few months after his contract on QE2 finishes.

 

Captain Wright will join Diamond Princess in a good couple of months - he is due to return to QM2 next month.

 

Captain Warner and Captain Rynd of Diamond and Sapphire Princess will move over to Cunard when their next contracts finish

 

So looks like Princess are taking Captains from two of their newest, largest ships. Captain Rynd is a Kiwi, (which I think Stephen reported earlier) 'with an English accent' No information on previous service....so far...

 

Peter