Very disappointed with Celebrity treatment over shortened Summit cruise

[tbelian]

[quote name='mrfred']What I'm saying is most of the time you get some kind of discount on a future purchase with a company it actually costs the company nothing. It does not eat through the entire profit margin of the purchase. The company just makes less profit than normal on the new purchase.[/QUOTE]

In the (very) complicated world of corporate accounting (or accounting in general I believe), this would be ledgered as a 'cost' that affects the bottom line. Less revenue from 25% discounted cruises is offset as a cost, not a reduction in profit (potential).

[canderson]

[quote name='lysolqn']I'd venture to say for most passengers, the cash compensation plus the value of the discount off a future cruise is greater than one-seventh or 14% of their total cruise fare. How much more should the cruiseline be responsible for?[/QUOTE]It is unfair for the cruise line to assume that any given passenger could or would want to make use of the 25% coupon. IF they were to do this, it would indeed be good value, especially with cruise fares going up as they have been. But it's an unwarranted assumption, and pax ought to have been given 1/7 in cash as an option.

[quote name='lysolqn']Sure, I'd hate to have my cruise cut short for any reason, but no one hates having to alter an itinerary or cut short a cruise more than the cruiseline. Not only does it cost them in terms of dollars with respect to refunds and lost onboard revenue, but it costs them dearly in bad press, negative word of mouth and generally bad public relations. I'm not going to throw a benefit for Celebrity, but having to alter/cancel another cruise on an M-class ship as a result of pod problems hurts them in the pocket a lot more than it hurts the passengers.[/QUOTE]No question that these ongoing failures aren't doing Celebrity any good, but neither do [u]some[/u] of the passengers in this achieve an adequate level of recompense (per above). What if they were to cancel your entire 7 night cruise? Wouldn't you expect the full 7/7 refunded plus the cost of cancellation of other transportation? Would you simply accept a coupon to be used in 1 year for another cruise while Celebrity held your money?

[mrfred]

[quote name='sasset']I just read that Rolls Royce and Alstom have agreed to settle with Celebrity on the Mermaid Pods lawsuit.

The settlement will provide Celebrity with vouchers for 25% off all future Mermaid Pod purchases.

Regards[/QUOTE]

BRAVO!!!!!!

Someone who gets it! :D

Somehow I don't think Celebrity would find that acceptable.

[tbelian]

[quote name='mrfred']Somehow I don't think Celebrity would find that acceptable.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but Celebirty has hired attorneys to do the work on this. This is something the OP is certainly able to do (at an approximate cost of $250.00/hour, on a remotely make-able case). Any attorneys out there want to take the OP's case 'pro bono'?

[canderson]

[quote name='tbelian']In the (very) complicated world of corporate accounting (or accounting in general I believe), this would be ledgered as a 'cost' that affects the bottom line. Less revenue from 25% discounted cruises is offset as a cost, not a reduction in profit (potential).[/QUOTE]I would imagine that the slight of hand possible here is enormous -- mostly due to the fact that there is no fixed price for a fare, even after the fare rule changes. I would guess (and I'll grant you, it's only that) that this simply reduces booking revenue rather than showing up elsewhere as an offsetting entry against some "standard" fare on the booking side. What standard??? The brochure price?!? ;) That'd require some sort of offset for every booking!

You can bet Celebrity knows where the difference came from as you can believe they track average pp revenue for booking in each cabin class, but that'd be marketing information rather than something you could point to on a P&L statement.

The CASH, on the other hand, would necessarily show up very specifically as some sort of "good will" entry in the cost of doing business.

[mrfred]

[quote name='Bollinge']
Judge Bollinge decrees that a fair and equitable settlement would be as follows:

1: A cash refund of 1/7th of your cruise fare.

2: Reimbursement in full in cash of any definable expenses you suffered as a direct result of the schedule alteration.

3: A voucher for a 25% discount on a future cruise with the line, redeemable at any time in the next twelve months. (Remember, you can book eighteen months ahead, so this gives you plenty of time to arrange another vacation. I go away somewhere every month - Get a life. You're a long time dead!)

I am sorry that you had a problem on your cruise, and hope you are eventually satisfied with what you are offered.[/QUOTE]


I think that is the proper way to compensate Bollinge

[hermang]

The company may be in bankruptcy or in financial straits - but they must have some kind of liability insurance that the cruiseline can go after. I think this would be different than they owe for merchandise and then declared bankruptcy.

[CruiseForever]

While we do love Celebrity, a little common sense on their part could prevent "any" passenger from being unhappy. Pax in the Penthouse Suite should not at all be happy with only a $300 per suite credit.

Having sailed in both Royal and twice in the PH, i would demand 1/7 of my money back or file a lawsuit, since the cost of the PH is $1600 to $1800 per day for two people on average.

A good business "NEVER" should lose a customer over a bad decision on their part. What if the cruise were shortened by 4 days, woiuld everyone be happy with a $300 credit. I think not, and credit on a future cruise IS NOT compensation for lost monies on a current cruise.

Now, I have had a cruise cancelled a week before sailing. All money was returned and a 50% off coupon for a future cruise was received. I'd take that deal anytime, since it resulted in a one year delay of our cruise, but now the PH only cost 50% of the original total.

So, I do agree with the original poster.

Ron

[tbelian]

[quote name='canderson']The CASH, on the other hand, would necessarily show up very specifically as some sort of "good will" entry in the cost of doing business.[/QUOTE]

I see your point. However, what has been the historical trend in this area? The trend has been discounts on future cruises, and on board credit. Even in other industries (but particularly travel) the offered compensation has almost always been some kind of discount on future purchases. Very rarely do you see cash given out.

[tbelian]

[quote name='CruiseForever'] or file a lawsuit[/QUOTE]

I'll type it again.

Unless you can find some lawyer to take your case pro bono, the price is roughly $250 per hour, OR MORE to file the suit. And how much would that retainer be exactly?

[mrfred]

[quote name='tbelian']Yes, but Celebirty has hired attorneys to do the work on this. This is something the OP is certainly able to do (at an approximate cost of $250.00/hour, on a remotely make-able case). Any attorneys out there want to take the OP's case 'pro bono'?[/QUOTE]

I bet there is one willing to take it as a class action for all of the passengers though. Then, after a settlement, the passengers would get a free drink voucher on a future cruise not a 25% off voucher while the Atty buys a cruise ship with his share of the pie.

[Andy]

[quote name='mrfred']I bet there is one willing to take it as a class action for all of the passengers though. Then, after a settlement, the passengers would get a free drink voucher on a future cruise not a 25% off voucher while the Atty buys a cruise ship with his share of the pie.[/QUOTE]

Hi MrFred !

Aint that the truth !!!!!!!!!!

That is exactly what would happen. We would get a free drink coupon, and the attorneys would get $50,000,000 in Cash. What a system :(

[CruiseForever]

Since I've already prepared one lawsuit "that will be settled out of court", hell sue the bums....pax should all be entitled to 1/7th refund as fair and honest compensation. X has the money, and has not fullfilled their portion of the contract. No one should have to accept a future voucher for monies that have been received by X to deliver services.

Suggest anyone that has paid by credit card to withold payment even with the period of time that has passed between final payment and the cruise. Because the bank card people will view it differently that X. They should clearly see it as services not being provided.

[justfor411]

I have never understood where folks get the simplistic idea that the cost of their cruise can be broken down per day by dividing the number of days into the overall cost. Ladies and gentlemen, in the real world, not governed by what we wish were true, this simply isn't the case.

Each day of a cruise presents particular costs, which can be associated to operating costs of the vessel itself, fuel, staff costs, port fees, tender fees, on-shore transport costs and a host of other expenses. Each day is unique, and only the accountants at the lines truly know the breakdown for each day of a particular cruise. Even days at the same port can cost drastically different amounts, depending on how long the vessel is in port, what type of docking is used, and how many extra support services (such as tugs, shuttles, etc) may be needed that particular day.

From what I have been told by on-board business staff, the most expensive days of a cruise usually are by far the first and last days, due primarily to the fact that the ship must dock, is at the dock for an extended period of time, and uses a high amount of shore based support services, including dockworkers to move luggage, local police for traffic direction, port-side staff for the registration process, etc.

Of course, all these costs become the basis for what cruise guests pay for a cruise. Once these costs are totaled, the line sets prices based on the margin they want. Remember too, that the margin received by the line varies considerably throughout the booking period: At one point the line may make more profit from a $1400 outside cabin than they do from a $2500 cc, if the outsides were in greater demand when the guest booked.

If you don't believe the costs per day are not simply multiples of the number of days, go to any travel site or line's site and compare 6 and 7 day cruises on the same ship to the same region (or 11 and 12 day cruises.)

In the instance of this cruise, one port day was lost on a 7 day cruise. However, it is not realistic to assume that this day would have cost 1/7th of the total price of the cruise. If the ship would have tendered into a public dock using it's own tenders, the cost may have been considerably less than if the ship tied up to a privately owned dock, had to pay for shuttles into town, etc.

Quite honestly, I think there are simply some people who are going to complain no matter what they receive. However, I'll pose one question: If the cruise line showed that, in fact, the costs associated with the missed day multiplied by the applicable margin were less than the compensation they had offered to date, would all the folk complaining now be eager to hand back the extra? No matter what you got or didn't get, you still had a far more enjoyable experience than all us sitting at home or at work during the same period. The choice is yours now: rail and fuss, get bitter and write letters, or simply relax and savor the memories of a time at sea.

[cruising with marti]

[b]Justfor[/b]


[b]You have put my thoughts on this topic, far better than I would have, a job well done.[/b]


[b]Phil[/b]

[canderson]

[quote name='justfor411']I have never understood where folks get the simplistic idea that the cost of their cruise can be broken down per day by dividing the number of days into the overall cost. Ladies and gentlemen, in the real world, not governed by what we wish were true, this simply isn't the case. [/QUOTE]The cost to Celebrity is NOT the issue here, although it should later be when they go to Alstrom looking for their two shillings worth.

The value to the customer for having one or more days trimmed from a cruise (food, entertainment, transportation, lodging on the ship) is considered as a loss of that number of days compared to the planned length of the cruise.

The customer is not concerned about specific overhead involved in embarkation, etc. They see that a cruise is some number of days shorter than the length of time of service that they have purchased. There's no getting around the fact that this is how 99% of passengers would look at the issue.

How about a little more extreme example of locations? If you booked a 14 nt trans-Canal on the Summit and ran into something that stopped the ship in its tracks (now THAT would be a dilly!) and they leave you in Panama 7 nts into the cruise due to a mechanical, apart from the horrendous cost of sending you home, don't you think they ought to be on the hook for 50% of the price of the cruise?

[CruiseForever]

Justfor411........That's the biggest bunch of horsepoop that I've even seen. I know accountants can do anything...ENRON etc.

While all of what you said may in fact be true, because differnet days have different costs associated with them, the "only" fact is the X delivered only 6/7 of its intended product, the pax are entitled to a 1/7th refund.

Order 7 "widgets" receive 6; prepay for 7 days at a hotel ( closes on the 7th day that has a broken water system and puts you out on the street), fly from LA to NYC, but gets left off in Pittsburgh, I could go on with many other stupid examples. The only "dumb" companies appear to be the cruise lines that try to pull something over the consumer by not refundeding the proper amount.

I still say knowing credit card companies, don't pay 1/7th of the bill and let them take on the cruise line. Guess what will happen, cruise line will sucumb as it should.

[greatful]

[quote name='CruiseForever']Justfor411........That's the biggest bunch of horsepoop that I've even seen. I know accountants can do anything...ENRON etc..........I still say knowing credit card companies, don't pay 1/7th of the bill and let them take on the cruise line. Guess what will happen, cruise line will sucumb as it should.[/QUOTE]

Not sure if you booked thru a travel agent, directly or how but you may be wrong. Read the cancellation clause of the agreement for any or all of the trip. It says in pretty plain english that you have no rights to any cancellation fees/refunds.

A credit card company may credit your account subject to gathering of facts from all parties but in the end however right or wrong the cruise line will prevail I think.

I am not an attorney but that is the way I read it.

[justfor411]

[quote name='CruiseForever']Justfor411........That's the biggest bunch of horsepoop that I've even seen. I know accountants can do anything...ENRON etc.

While all of what you said may in fact be true, because differnet days have different costs associated with them, the "only" fact is the X delivered only 6/7 of its intended product, the pax are entitled to a 1/7th refund.

Order 7 "widgets" receive 6; prepay for 7 days at a hotel ( closes on the 7th day that has a broken water system and puts you out on the street), fly from LA to NYC, but gets left off in Pittsburgh, I could go on with many other stupid examples. The only "dumb" companies appear to be the cruise lines that try to pull something over the consumer by not refundeding the proper amount.

I still say knowing credit card companies, don't pay 1/7th of the bill and let them take on the cruise line. Guess what will happen, cruise line will sucumb as it should.[/QUOTE]

No, it's just a reality that doesn't fit with what you'd like the world to be. Fact is, the cruise product isn't measured simply by days -- if it was, a 12 night Baltic cruise would cost exactly twice as much as a 6 nighter, but guess what? It doesn't.

Buy 7 widgets, none identical in cost of manufacture, and then get only 6? Try to convince the vendor your compensation should be a simple fraction, not the actual relative price of the item missed. Book 7 nights at a premium hotel, say Friday through Thursday. On Thursday evening, the water goes out -- tell them you want 1/7th back. They'll simply explain that the booking constituted 3 prime days (Friday, Saturday, and Sunday) which may have been priced twice as much, and 4 non-primes, one of which you didn't get, so you'll get back only the price of that Thursday night stay. (For example, a hotel I've used in California charges $280 a night on the weekends, $170 during the week.) The airline example is similar -- they aren't going to give you back money based on how many miles you did or didn't fly. The only "dumb" thing here is not understanding the realities of business, which is what is displayed by espousing a simplistic view of pricing and costs.

But, hey, go ahead -- try not paying 1/7th of the bill to your cc company. Just don't be surprised when it doesn't work. And also remember one thing -- every-time some guest bullies and bugs a line until give them more than they deserve, it don't hurt the line in the least -- they simply factor all those cases into their costs, and the next round of cruise prices goes up a bit -- so the only pocket you're picking is that of your fellow cruisers.

[CruiseForever]

I was not on board , so I am not affected by Celebrity's "poor" lack of judgement and customer relations. The fact that X claims that they can cancel all or part of any cruise without notice may or may not stand up in a court of law. The bank's ie VISA, MC, American Express carry alot more power than any cruise line, any any service not delivered "will " be credited back to the customer.

It appalls me that the loyal fans of X can believe that they can do no wrong. I love X better than any other cruise line of its class, but I also realize that they are as corrupt as any other business that believes it can get away with cheating the public. We need to look no further than Enron, the phone company "cooked" books, the insurance industry scandles.

What would anyone of us do if we were returned to port after 3 or 4 days of a 7 to 10 day cruise and prepaid thousands of dollars? Then we were offerred only a certificte or a future cruise, the uproar would be deafening.

I still say deduct it and fight the cruise line that way, most banks will favor the individual, because it will be apparant that the product was not received. It won't be important to the banks/card companies what the cruise lines position is.

[CruiseForever]

Justfor411..... Your agrument is still a bunch of horsepoop. The only dumb thing is that you still don't get it. Whatever the cost of the 7th widget, similar or differnet, it would be returned , just as the the cost of the hotel day that was missed either a more expensive business day or a cheaper weekend day. The seventh would be returned. The airline pays the cost to NYC, no matter whatever the new cost is. Since cruise lines do not price each day differently the only way that they could refund the customer would be on average.

The cruise line is at fault, and must pay the price. That's fairly simple customer service, this shouldn't even be a discussion.

[CruiseForever]

FYI......

Spoke with 3 major banks, ie credit card companies........They advised deducting 1/7th of the total cruise cost and putting it in dispute. Their opinion was that the product/service was purchased for 7 days and not delivered.

Spoke with TA, they advised that money should be due the pax for unfufillment of the contract.

Advice to the orignial poster keep complaining to Celebrity, tell them your not satisified and will deduct from your credit card, and if it somehow costs "justfor411" an increase in his next cruise fare, then he will just have to take a 2nd deck inside cabin and hope that the "pods" don't break again.

[canderson]

Celebrity doesn't show you ALL of the fine print until final payment is received. At that time, Celebrity sends out the "tickets" that represent the contract. One would think they'd be good enough to put ALL of the information on their web site rather than requiring potential customers to ask to have this information transmitted in advance. It's one of those "shrink wrap license" deals. Truth to tell, if you cancelled immediately upon receiving your tickets due to contract language associated with those tickets that you'd never been supplied with before, they'd be obligated to unwind the deal, irrespective of the sail date involved. They're really obligated to inform the customer of any terms and conditions that may exist at the time of booking. I wonder if anyone has ever done this?

Here's all the FAQ information that I can find that a customer can readily access PRIOR to cruising. If there are others, I'd appreciate it if someone would point them out:

[color=seagreen]In the event of strikes, lockouts, riots, weather conditions, mechanical difficulties or for any other reason whatsoever, we may, at any time and without prior notice, cancel, advance, postpone or deviate from any scheduled sailing or port of call and may, but is not obliged to, substitute another vessel or port of call, and shall not be liable for any loss whatsoever to guests by reason of such cancellation, advancement, postponement, deviation or substitution. We shall not be responsible for any failure to adhere to the arrival and departure times published in this website for any of its ports of call.[/color]


Much of this has to do with itinerary changes, missed ports of call, etc. But what does all of that mean with regard to early termination of cruises?

It is clear that Celebrity is under no obligation to try to put someone on another ship, but may do so.

The cost of airline and hotel cancellations are legally the problem of the passenger. The fact that they assist in defraying these costs is purely a good will gesture at this time.

NOTE, however, that they do [u]not[/u] try to get themselves [u]off the hook[/u] for lack of delivery of the basic service of having you on the ship for the number of days of the original itinerary.

While they are free to cancel an entire cruise ("scheduled sailing") or any part of it, and while they will not be liable for any other direct losses, they don't try to weasel out of compensation for the loss of one or more days on the ship itself.

[lawyergirl22]

"In my experience cruise lines go out of their way to compensate passengers on cancelled or curtailed voyages, but you have to admit, your trip was only slightly abbreviated. "

That's true--However, I would like back 1/7 of the five months that I spent looking forward to, dreaming about, and planning of our seven day cruise to alaska!

Judge Bollinge decrees that a fair and equitable settlement would be as follows:

1: A cash refund of 1/7th of your cruise fare.

Great send me the additional $162

2: Reimbursement in full in cash of any definable expenses you suffered as a direct result of the schedule alteration.

We incurred an extra cost for the hotel in vancouver/plus meals, having to reschedule a fishing expedition for 3 1/2 times what it cost in Ketchikan, and of course the once in a lifetime chance to fly in a floatplane to the Misty Fjords National Park, and a visit to the great port of Ketchikan. This one is going to cost you about $350.


3: A voucher for a 25% discount on a future cruise with the line, redeemable at any time in the next twelve months. (Remember, you can book eighteen months ahead, so this gives you plenty of time to arrange another vacation. I go away somewhere every month - Get a life. You're a long time dead!)

Sorry, but the voucher has to be used before June 30, 2006. I'm so pleased that you are wealthy enough to be able to cruise once a month--however, some of us early in our careers do have to work for our vacations that happen every few years or so.

We enjoyed this cruise very much, but were extremely disappointed in the change of plans. I am very disheartened by the callous attitude expressed by some posters. This was a once in a lifetime cruise, that I spent endless hours planning for and dreaming about. I hope you are never put in the same situation because it sucks! On second thought...

[Ma Bell]

I think June 2006 is a year from now not a month from now. I don't think anyone is callous about this. It was unavoidable and Celebrity did what they had to do. It's too bad it happened, but it is not the end of the world. It was one day in your life. I hope this is the worst thing you have to endure. Those who have extenuating services should try to get further compensation, but let's face it, most of the passengers on this cruise were probably satisfied.