Why no American Captains?

[dockmaster]

The Captain must hold a license from the Flagged State....ie....Bahaminan Flag, Bahaminan License, Panamian Flag, Panamian License etc.

You can convert USCG licenses over I hear....must not be worth it in the long run, or mabey they just dont want to hire any.

[livestocruisetoo]

I guess your right ... And I don't know a thing about cruise lines or there crew.

 

To my uneducated eye, I just thought that if ex-military pilots can transition from F-16s over to commercial 737s, why can't ex-Navy 1st officers go from a Destroyer to Cruise Ships?

 

All I was really asking .. is where are all the experienced American ship captains? Certainly not on the cruise ships I guess.

 

Didn't mean to start a flame war or anything like it .. Just a simple question, and now I know.

 

Should the Captain of a vessel in the U.S. Navy attain a rank above "Captain" and get's to stay in the Navy for more than his 20, he usually becomes a Staff Officer in some form of Administrative/Technical position. Eventually after taking retirement, he will go into government or private industry. What they bring from their previous military experience is leadership along with with knowledge and connections.

[usmm07]

Here's the deal, because there is a lot of ignorance, guessing, and silly opinions flying around here... First off, there is a dramatic difference between a Navy and Merchant Marine, the similarities end at both working on the water (sometimes, in the case of the Navy). There is extremely limited cross over for credentialing purposes, and they have nothing to do operationally with each other at all. Lets get these ideas out of your heads right now. Commercial vessels are civilian merchant vessels operated by Merchant Mariners, and the US has seven (count 'em, 7) collegiate academies which train licensed officers. (yeah, yeah, one is also considered a "service academy" too) The US has an abundance of qualified mariners to do the job and a proud maritime tradition. But the answer to THIS question is simple economics.

 

 

In the US we have legislation called the Merchant Marine Act of 1920 or "the Jones Act". This requires that vessels calling directly between two US ports be US flagged, owned and crewed. This protects the US merchant fleet for wide-ranging economic and national security reasons, as well as for the vast tentacles of the domestic maritime industry that I won't get in to here. In the increasingly outsourced, bloodthirsty, globalized economy, this is the sole reason that American flagged vessels even exist at all.

 

 

 

Now you'll notice that, with the exception of a few NCL ships cruising to Hawaii, the rest are foreign registered vessels, because they can be and it's much cheaper (the only reason; it is called a "flag of convenience" because it's very convenient for the company not to be accountable to any serious flag state with actual regulations). You'll also notice that a vessel will always call at a foreign port between two US ports, ie Bermuda, because the Jones Act prohibits them from trading domestically (passengers = cargo). Because of this, they will always choose to hire cheaper foreign mariners and staff to crew these vessels, because they can.

 

 

It is simple economics. No nationalistic bravado here. You could hire a dozen Filipinos for what it would cost to hire an American, and get them to sail more for less. They are great mariners in many instances, but if you're seriously sitting there scratching your head wondering why the company hired them and not an American you really need to wake up. Foreign commercial vessels will have crews working contracts of up to a year at sea at a time... because they will always find an abundance of cheap labor willing to do it. These cruise ships crews are certainly not working equal-time, 2-3 month tours that I've seen mentioned here, they're slogging away at 4, 5, 6 months tours for a relative pittance. (the captains may sail equal time, but the regular folk certainly don't)

 

 

 

us mariner hit the nail on the head, you demanded cheaper cruise vacations, this is part of the avenue that got you there. The companies can afford to build a billion dollar ship every other year to please your thirsts because they operate on such a shoestring budget paying their employees the lowest possible wage someone would accept for the most amount of time on board they'd tolerate. They typically don't hire Americans because they don't have to, it's cheaper not to, and they don't want to deal with US labor laws. That's it, end of story.

 

 

Now that everyone has finished guessing about ship captains, I can give you some real information.

 

Most major cruise lines have unions representing Deck, Engine, and Hotel.

The primary unions representing Deck Officers (including Captains) are European.

Very few Americans belong to European Maritime Unions, so are not able to be hired.

 

Most major cruise lines have their Captains working 3 months on and 3 months off. The 3 months off are usually not paid. American Captains like to claim unemployment insurance during those 3 months, creating a huge insurance expense for the cruise line.

 

Cruise lines hire their crews from Recruiting Agencies in many different countries; the USA has nearly no crewing agencies of any kind.

 

American Maritime Union rates for Deck Officers (including Captains) are nearly double the rates for European Deck Officers. The cruise lines cannot afford the Americans.

 

Nearly all Cruise Ship Captains speak several languages - including the language of the flag or country of their ships.

American Captains all speak two languages:

1. English (or at least an American version of English).

2. English louder.

 

American cruise ship crew rarely get along very well with crew from other countries. They usually have the attitude that the American way is the right way, and all other ways are wrong.

 

The US Navy has many Captains who are familiar with nuclear ships and warships.

Cruise ships are neither nuclear nor warships. They operate and handle much differently.

 

On a cruise ship, the Captain is expected and responsible to socialize comfortably with passengers from many different nations. The few American Captains we see are not very adept nor comfortable doing this.

 

The International Maritime Organisation mandates many of the regulations and operations on international vessels. For reasons that nobody seems able to explain, the few remaining American ships frequently have operations that are directly opposite from the rest of the world. A good example; on international ships, all even numbered boats, rafts, cabins, lockers, etc are on the port side. On American ships they are on starboard side.

Another example: on international ships, the alarm codes for emergency alerts and crew to lifeboat stations are exactly opposite the ones on US Ships.

 

Most countries have a nautical history, with a tradition of merchant mariners moving up through the ranks of merchant vessels to finally arrive as captains on cruise ships.

The USA lost that history and tradition long ago.

 

 

Wow, what complete hogwash. Theres a lot of loathing going on here for whatever reason, and that opinion certainly isn't grounded in any kind of fact, that much is quite evident. Regarding Americans not willing to do the job, that is true. Anyone in a similar position would feel the same, because all of you would certainly give up your job so you could work more for less? As an experienced US Merchant Marine Officer, why would I? Why go to a job that pays me half what I currently make and demands I work more? Why deal with those kinds of working conditions and give up my hard earned labor protections? Why take on the responsibility of caring for your lives and get **** on for being overpaid and ungrateful?

 

And never have I claimed unemployment during my vacation time and never sailed with anyone that has. It can't even work like that, see, you have to be unemployed to claim unemployment, a captain working a rotational assignment for the same company is not unemployed (implying he was laid off or quit between assignments), and I'm betting he's not even paid a day rate either since he's management (whereas he wouldn't technically be paid when hes home), but rather more like salary. So, yeah, doubly confused by this assertion. In honest disclosure, I've heard of it happening in the Great Lakes trades where companies lay up ships for the winter (and actually lay-off their employees), but not on normal commercial routes, and it certainly isn't typical. Where does this gibberish come from???? They don't hire Americans for the reasons I previously stated above, everything else is just an excuse.

 

 

Because we charge too much. My husband us a shipbuilder and their last commercial contract was in the 1970s. The OSHA and union rules, wages and benefits price the US right out of the market.

 

Two 115k DWT tankers are being built in Philadelphia right now. Aker Philadelphia also just got finished building twelve product tankers for US trade. VT Halter and Bollinger has been building ship-sized ATBs for some time now. Polar Tankers has a 5-ship fleet, all built in the US in the late 90's early 2000s. It's not that it doesnt happen, it's that people don't pay attention to the maritime industry until theres an accident or the military realizes that they need it. At the very least, NASSCO and Newport News shipyards will always be around to service aircraft carriers, because they are the only yards still big enough to do so. It's not that the US is unnecessarily expensive, it's that everywhere else (ie. singapore, china, korea) are dirt cheap. It's easy when there are no rules! Why do we have so many of those damn things here anyhow????

 

The majority of their business, for the cruise line in question in this forum, is done out of domestic US ports.

 

Not to mention, at least for the service industry employees, the PASSENGERS pay the great majority of their salary.

 

....

Or, to not be as wordy, the lines have come up with a brilliant scheme to have the passengers pay the majority of the employees salary.

 

I hate to break it to you, but you are paying for EVERYTHING one way or the other. The companies prefer the tipping scheme because they can pay the staff lower than acceptable wages and just tell them the rest will be made up in tips, maybe. Yeah, glorious scheme.

 

The Captain must hold a license from the Flagged State....ie....Bahaminan Flag, Bahaminan License, Panamian Flag, Panamian License etc.

You can convert USCG licenses over I hear....must not be worth it in the long run, or mabey they just dont want to hire any.

 

It depends on the flag state, but generally a license there for any US mariner that wants one. I have friends that hold several licenses from different countries. It's not difficult at all.... helps explain to you guys a little more why these vessels are flagged where they are.

 

 

Ok .... I understand what you folks are saying.

 

But, for the few here that think these cruise ship captains may not be paid as much as US standards ... read this:

 

http://www.crew-center.com/22-higher-salaries-cruise-ship-captains

 

Regarding salaries and the "Crew Center" article posted, the captains I sail with on oil tankers easily make 25% more than stated for foreign cruise ship captains. To give you an idea of the stark difference between foreign vessels and US, the junior-most officer on my ship makes $20k more than the average Chief Officer stated in the article (and undoubtedly for less time on board). And you wonder why I avoid working on a cruise ship?

 

 

Typically, cruise ship Captains work for two months at a time and then enjoy one month off. Some Captains’ families live aboard with them during these work periods, while others do not.

 

from a job posting....

 

http://hotelmule.com/forum/viewthread.php?tid=1902

 

Theres a lot there that doesnt really amount to much. This posting is amateurish and complete nonsense. 5 years required experience? $50-$100k+? Shoot, I've worked with deckhands that make $60k. This rings like more of a posting for a party-boat captain than anything.

 

Harbor pilots are the most specialized captains in American maritime hierarchy and are paid accordingly. There are often generations of families who do this but it has more to do with knowledge of local waters than actual nepotism.

 

Well, not necessarily. It's a different job in the industry that requires a certain skill-set, and because they generate a lot of money, they earn a lot. Not all pilots are created equal, and pay doesn't depend on skill, it depends on the amount and type of traffic on that route. It is not any kind of hierarchy in the industry or credentialing. All pilot organizations have different requirements set by the state they operate in, some require master's licenses and years of experience, and some don't require you to have ever sailed as anything before being a pilot... Sandy Hook in NY/NJ, Delaware River, to name a couple big ones.

[RWolver672]

I would think if someone retiring from the US Navy that commanded an aircraft carrier for years would certainly be able to captain a cruise ship around the mediteranian ... don't ya think?

 

Like I said ... Lots of American 474 Captains .... but no American cruise ship Captains

 

Just seems strange to me

 

In my opinion, someone retiring from the US Navy after commanding an aircraft carrier for years is more than likely set for life with his pension and doesn't need to work for the cruise industry.

 

Out of curosity, did you mean 747?

[che5904]

OP I understand what you are asking and that you feel there should be Americans who are qualified for this position.

 

However, unless you know someone qualified and that has attempted to work as a captain on a cruiseship and was denied. Your answer could be as simple as no American that is qualified may want the job.

[Turbo6ta]

 

Out of curosity, did you mean 747?

 

Somehow, it got turned around when I was typing

[boatsmate]

USMM07

 

Thanks for putting it all straight. I will add one more thing VS the NAVY and Cruise Ship Captain, Just because you are a Captain in the Navy and Command A Navy ship does not mean they are Licensed Captains. They are not. They is no cross over of rank and licenses. once a captain of say an aircraft carrier retires, and decides he wants to go to work on a Merchant ship or cruise ship, he has to go to the Coast Guard, show them his Sea Time (time spent on vessels of the size that he or she wants to work on) oh and by the way Military time is only good for a certain percentage of your time, not all of it. so the retiring captain has to go back to working as a deck officer lowest officer rating, to build up the rest of his or her time to qualify to take the test for the type ship they want to work on. so you are looking at at least another 3 or 4 years working as a Jr officer before they can take the test. and then they have to work their way up the rest of the way back to captain. I don't know many people who want to do that after achieving such a high rank of captain in the navy.

 

 

Capt Bill <<< Licensed Mariner and retired from the Coast Guard Res.

[Aplmac]

RCL has at least one American captain.

Although most Royal Caribbean Captains are Norwegians

-guys who start at a young age in their fishing fleets! ;)

If you can handle Norwegian offshore fishing conditions

cruising is a snap!

 

I'm told that RCL sends out "head hunters" to identify and recruit the better ones

and get them on the cruise career thing, rather than the fishing career thing.

.

[Harrier1961]

Columbus didn't need no stinking military academy.

Um, yes he did.

People forget, that his mission was a complete failure (on what he wanted to do).

Just saying...

Andy

[fireman935]

RCL has at least one American captain.

 

Don't know if he is still on her but oasis of the seas has a American Capt.

[wanderingjew]

Don't know if he is still on her but oasis of the seas has a American Capt.

I had 2 american captains last 2 cruises on Breakaway & EXOTS

[Cushing985]

In my opinion, someone retiring from the US Navy after commanding an aircraft carrier for years is more than likely set for life with his pension and doesn't need to work for the cruise industry.

 

Actually, as someone else pointed out, the Captains of carriers come from the aviation ranks. Typically, they would have one tour as an XO (Executive Officer) and one tour as Commanding Officer. Each tour lasts 2 years. I can't remember ever hearing a Captain having two tours as a CO of a carrier...just too many officers below him trying to get command.