Carnival's Deal with FEMA

[daninnyc]

Cruise lines should pay taxes because the bookings are paid for and made in the United States...much like airline taxes are paid when you buy a ticket to London and the flight leaves from an American City. You eat the food and gain the transportation in international airspace - but you still are responsible for a portion of tax . The airlines have to report that as revenue and pay taxes on it .

 

Cruise lines need to pay taxes

[Pam in CA]

I believe that if you do business or receive income in the U.S., you have to pay taxes on that income, whether or not the parent company is located or registered in the U.S.

[spongerob]

Cruise lines need to pay taxes

 

Carnival Corporation's (CCL) Income Statement for 2004 shows that they paid $47,000,000 in taxes. RCL, the parent of Royal Caribbean and Celebrity, paid none. If you are going to attack a corporation, please get the facts right.

[jnc411]

Carnival Corporation's (CCL) Income Statement for 2004 shows that they paid $47,000,000 in taxes. RCL, the parent of Royal Caribbean and Celebrity, paid none. If you are going to attack a corporation, please get the facts right.

 

 

Thanks spongerob, you are the go to guy for the correct information. :)

Cori

[SharkieRools]

Cruise lines should pay taxes because the bookings are paid for and made in the United States...much like airline taxes are paid when you buy a ticket to London and the flight leaves from an American City. You eat the food and gain the transportation in international airspace - but you still are responsible for a portion of tax . The airlines have to report that as revenue and pay taxes on it .

 

Cruise lines need to pay taxes

Ummm, simiar taxes are paid by you on a cruise. Look for the government taxes and fees portion of your cruise invoice.

[Mary Ellen1]

One thing I've not seen addressed is the issue of wages for the cabin stewards. Hopefully, Carnival is paying them more of a regular hourly wage, vs. the very small stipend they receive on a regular cruise, which is normally supplemented by passenger tips. My point is: you wouldn't expect that the emergency workers being housed on the cruise ships are being asked to shell out $10/day to pay for tips, as the rest of us are on a regular cruise. So therefore, Carnival's cost per passenger is higher on this "non-cruise."

 

I remember reading somewhere that the cabins are only being cleaned once a week, so perhaps they're making do with a smaller complement of cabin stewards. But even so, let's hope they're being paid better than on a regular cruise, and that the emergency workers aren't expected to tip them.

 

Mary Ellen

[nitterm]

For the "go to person with all the facts", Mickey/Ted Arison can afford to personally contribute $2 million since he gave up his US citizenship in order to get away from US taxes. Seems as though a CEO that avoids taxes would naturally want his company to avoid them also.

[cruiserforlife]

My question is are the pools open and are these people partying too?

[opieant]

It is very clear that most of you on this thread are ignorant in the ways of how corparate america uses tax loopholes and tax shelters to in crease thier bottom line. To say statements like "I think that if a company is within the US they should pay taxes ect..." Just shows that you do not fully understand the US tax code. Tax loopholes will always be exploited. This happens all over the world. This is the very reason that 99% of all ships fly a foreign flag. This insulates the parent company from certain tax as well as insuance liability.

 

This is also the main reason why companies like walmart, Kohls and many other national discount retails stores import the vast majority of there good from 3rd world nations is not just to exploit labor laws, but save 10's of millions each year on the import export good tariff's.

 

As long as these major corporation pump billions of dollars into the US economy every year, they will always be allowed to use these unique methods of sercomventing the US tax laws.

 

This is how the real world works. it is not always fair, but it's life.

[SharkieRools]

I agree with most of what you say, however:

 

This is the very reason that 99% of all ships fly a foreign flag.

 

Actually under US laws they couldn't be US flagged even if they wanted to. US Flagged ships must be built within the United States and 75% of onboard staff must be a US citizen or resident.

 

Not to get too far off topic, but what I did intersting is:

 

"Because of the cost of these requirements as well as tax laws outlined above for U.S. flag registry, nearly 90% of the commercial vessels calling on U.S. ports fly a non-U.S. flag. Therefore, vessels with international registries, are not unique to the cruise industry. A majority of the major U.S. controlled shipping companies engaged in international commerce have chosen to operate under flags other than that of the United States . This is because foreign crew costs are 1/3 to ½ that of American crew costs, and American ship costs are 25% to 100% more than that of foreign ships according to virtually every industry and government source. "

 

That's from US Cabotage Laws: Protective or Damaging

[coiran]

NCL has two ships American Flagged - neither one of which was built or rebuilt in USA - they are however complying with the US staff - how did they do it????

 

Ron

[opieant]

You see even I can be humble, I was incorrect and another CC member called me to the mat. I stand corrected.

 

Bravo.

[spongerob]

NCL has two ships American Flagged - neither one of which was built or rebuilt in USA - they are however complying with the US staff - how did they do it????

 

 

Ron

 

NCL agreed to pick up the bits of Project America that had been rusting in Louisiana or some such place and finish the ships in Bremerhaven. That's how they complied with the US content requirement. They also got some waivers with the help of Sen. Inouye of Hawaii.

[spongerob]

For the "go to person with all the facts", Mickey/Ted Arison can afford to personally contribute $2 million since he gave up his US citizenship in order to get away from US taxes. Seems as though a CEO that avoids taxes would naturally want his company to avoid them also.

 

I thought your problem was with FEMA. Or is it CCL, or is it Arison himself? It might surprise you to learn that you support him by sailing on one of his ships. In any event, his cruise line(s) do much more to support any economy through their daily activities than would taxing them to the hilt.

[woodofpine]

That either corproations should pay no income tax or shareholders should pay no income tax on dividends.

 

Theory being that if corporations paid no income tax then that so much more would go to investment and expansion on far more productive models than FEMA or the Pentagon have ever conceived or applied. Wow! Maybe that's why the cruise industry is the most dynamic corner of the travel industry?

 

Or dividends shouldn't be taxed since Uncle Sam is getting 25% of the money that becomes dividends (predistribution) and then another 28-39% of it as individual income tax. No - shed no tears for Uncle Sam, he's far to good at divide and conquer psychology - "Don't tax me, and don't tax thee, tax the man behind the tree!" - when "the man" is a corporation so many more fall for Uncle's ploy!

[woodofpine]

The Arisons are no saints, but...

 

Mickey Arison lives in Bal Harbour Florida. He wouldn't be able to do that if he renounced his citizenship. Uncle Sam is none to keen on renouncers. I think they're only allowed to be in the US like 10 or 15 days a year. If they overstay the Commissioner of IRS is authorized under a little known provision of the Internal Revnue Code to personally "scourge" them Gibson/"Passion" style. Mickey's dad Ted (CCL's founder) did renounce his citizenship though so it does sort of run in the family!

[RodneyG]

Saying that cos US citizens are the majority of paying customers and thus the CO should pay US taxes is like saying the louvre should pay USA taxes cos most of it's visitors are American.

All that would happen in the case that a cruise liners tax burden increased so they had to put up fares , would be that ppl who want to cruise would go to another line

After all , I dont want to be "punished" by having to pay extra for a cruise where the extra taxes go to a country I dont live in and that will NOT benefit me in any way. I pay my taxes on my fare (part of my income tax) in my country , I don't see why there should be any moral indignation at the state of affairs , either expressed or implied.

[Pam in CA]

Last night's Cruise News Daily had a very interesting article that covers many of the points in this thread. I can't post it but we're all wrong about some things and we've missed a lot of what went into this "deal" and the pricing.

 

One point that was made is that the media and Congress have fixated on the $599/pp rate that one could get on a Carnival cruise. When was the last time YOU paid $599/pp for a week's cruise? (If you have, I bet it was for an inside and not for an oceanview or balcony.) Particularly during the upcoming holiday season which is during the contract period. And, Carnival had sold out 100% of the berths through the Fall and had few cabins left over the holidays. They displaced about 100,000 already booked passengers for this contract and had no other cruises or spaces for them to be rebooked. That's a lot of lost good will. How do you put a $ figure on that?

 

There's an awful lot more to this contract than the media has been reporting and it's not at all as one-sided as they're leading you to believe. Carnival is in business to make a profit but they're not making a dime more than the income they had already booked.

[cruiseco]

The Arisons are no saints, but...

 

Mickey Arison lives in Bal Harbour Florida. He wouldn't be able to do that if he renounced his citizenship. Uncle Sam is none to keen on renouncers. I think they're only allowed to be in the US like 10 or 15 days a year. If they overstay the Commissioner of IRS is authorized under a little known provision of the Internal Revnue Code to personally "scourge" them Gibson/"Passion" style. Mickey's dad Ted (CCL's founder) did renounce his citizenship though so it does sort of run in the family!

 

Ted Arison was born in what is now Israel back in 1924, studied in Beirut, fought as a British soldier in WWII, fought with Israeli forces in the 1948 war and only moved to the US in the 50's. He moved back to his homeland in 1994. Although I'm sure there were tax advantages to giving up joint US/Israeli citizenship when he permanently left the US, there's no doubt in my mind that he wanted to live his remaining years in Israel as an Israeli, tax advantages or not.

[woodofpine]

Ted wasn't exactly red, white, and blue but more an expat anyway... And the son has given plenty to genuine charities so whose to say Uncle Sam is a charity case... not me. No - I love my Uncle but he's the con man pick pocket in the family :)

[Opinions]

There's an awful lot more to this contract than the media has been reporting and it's not at all as one-sided as they're leading you to believe. Carnival is in business to make a profit but they're not making a dime more than the income they had already booked.

 

Isn't Cruise News Daily part of the media?...One can't bash the "media" then use the "media" to prove your point...Eventually when all the details are revealed hopefully we we will have a truer picture...After all we the taxpayers are paying the bill.

[tcdtcd]

Let's not cry for the Arisons or the CCL corp. They make obscene profits -- both in absolute terms and margin % -- more than most any other company in any industry.

 

I'm all for free enterprise and maximizing profits. But make no mistake, this was a GREAT deal for Carnival. Huge!

[woodofpine]

You don't think Mickey didn't "earn" his fortune having dropped out of college and inherited CCL...?

 

Of course, there's a guy that in video interviews 20+ years ago acknowledged that his financial value in business was the access he provided investors to the US Vice-President. THAT guy is presently "The President".

(How does a family with three generations of "public servants" become mega millionaires?)

 

OK - call me cynical...

[spongerob]

If you're a Kennedy, you made your money smuggling liquor during Prohibition.

[woodofpine]

Joe Kennedy was also a Third Reich supporter as Ambassador to the Court of St. James on the eve of WWII (so blind was his Irish antagonism to the Brits). Of course, the man called Intrepid took care of that...

 

The Bushies are married to the Protectorate of the Wahabist terror farmers on the Arabian Penninsula (so blind are they to oil money)... What are we going to do about that! (nadda - and we've paid and will continue to)

 

There's no place for political dynasties in a democracy (or a safe republic).