New rules on visiting Cuba

[alfaeric]

I can't seem to find a way to cite directly to the page of the CFR, but the text is:

"Example 1 to § 515.574: An individual plans to travel to Cuba, stay in a room at a rented accommodation in a private Cuban residence (casa particular), eat at privately-owned Cuban restaurants (paladares), and shop at privately-owned stores run by self-employed Cubans (cuentapropista) during his or her four-day trip. While at the casa particular, the individual will have breakfast each morning with the Cuban host and engage with the Cuban host to learn about Cuban culture. In addition, the traveler will complete his or her full-time schedule by supporting Cuban entrepreneurs launching their privately-owned businesses. The traveler’s activities promote independent activity intended to strengthen civil society in Cuba. Because the individual’s qualifying activities are not limited to staying in a room at a rented accommodation in a private Cuban residence (casa particular), eating at privately-owned Cuban restaurants (paladares), and shopping at privately owned stores run by self-employed Cubans (cuentapropista) and the traveler maintains a full-time schedule that enhances contact with the Cuban people, supports civil society in Cuba, and promotes the Cuban people’s independence from Cuban authorities, and that results in meaningful interaction between the traveler and Cuban individuals, the individual’s travel qualifies for the general license."

 

https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Documents/cacr_11082017.pdf

 

I found page 52002 and 52003 to be most helpful. There is an interesting note to an example of what does not qualify as People to people travel any longer, but specifically states it might qualify under Support the Cuban People on page 52002 I had missed in my research prior to my trip.

 

What cruise line are you traveling on? Hopefully they have cruises which will travel to Cuba before your cruise and you can hear of other's experience. Azamara was telling most people they had to take a ship's tour each day to be able to leave the ship. I'm not sure which exception or license those folks had chosen on their affidavit. We were not told that and not questioned about what our plans were, though I did have evidence of my plans and our license to present if the need arose.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

 

Thank you for finding and posting that, too. Very much answers our questions and my point.

[Milwaukee Eight]

I still don't understand why it would be considered the least restrictive when you are doing exactly what the law's intention is- supporting a peaceful transition and civil society.

 

 

 

One does not even have to question the use of liberal- you are doing exactly what it's saying. That not liberal or least restrictive- it's what is wanted to happen. You are supporting a free market in a communist country. And you are letting them speak more freely than they have (as we think) in the past. AND none of them are going to jail for it.

 

 

 

I just don't understand why people object to that.

 

 

 

I’m not sure that’s the intent of US new action.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[alfaeric]

I’m not sure that’s the intent of US new action.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

Why not? Hasn't that been the goal since Castro took over?

 

Are we not supposed to try to have a peaceful transition of how Cuba works???

 

If that's not the intention of the rules, what is? Just to restrict us?

 

The "support Cuban People" section does point out in words that the goal is to transition the system. That's exactly what I want to happen, and what I want to support. Not their government.

[Milwaukee Eight]

Why not? Hasn't that been the goal since Castro took over?

 

 

 

Are we not supposed to try to have a peaceful transition of how Cuba works???

 

 

 

If that's not the intention of the rules, what is? Just to restrict us?

 

 

 

The "support Cuban People" section does point out in words that the goal is to transition the system. That's exactly what I want to happen, and what I want to support. Not their government.

 

 

 

I sometimes believe those that are still there, don’t have a problem with their Government. What else do they know? They don’t have a free life but a life dictated to them by their Government. They once were a prosperous island.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[dwgreenlee]

I still don't understand why it would be considered the least restrictive when you are doing exactly what the law's intention is- supporting a peaceful transition and civil society.

 

One does not even have to question the use of liberal- you are doing exactly what it's saying. That not liberal or least restrictive- it's what is wanted to happen. You are supporting a free market in a communist country. And you are letting them speak more freely than they have (as we think) in the past. AND none of them are going to jail for it.

 

I just don't understand why people object to that.

 

I take no position - in this forum - as to the merits of bring change to Cuba. My discussion was simply on the point that if all P2P travel, now requiring some sort of US sponsored tour guide, could be moved to the "support for the Cuban people" exception (licenses), not requiring a tour guide, the change made by the current administration on 09 Nov to eliminate individual P2P travel would be meaningless.

[alfaeric]

I sometimes believe those that are still there, don’t have a problem with their Government. What else do they know? They don’t have a free life but a life dictated to them by their Government. They once were a prosperous island.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

 

 

Based on what?

 

None of the people we talked to were happy. That’s exactly why they started business to support themselves. Most want to leave, but can’t.

 

You also didn’t answer my question- what is the intention of the rules if not for making a change in the Cuban system.

 

I’m not even sure why you post in this forum, since you are against people traveling there.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[alfaeric]

I take no position - in this forum - as to the merits of bring change to Cuba. My discussion was simply on the point that if all P2P travel, now requiring some sort of US sponsored tour guide, could be moved to the "support for the Cuban people" exception (licenses), not requiring a tour guide, the change made by the current administration on 09 Nov to eliminate individual P2P travel would be meaningless.

Still have to spend money in privately held companies, and also have a full time schedule. Even with the older individual P2P rules, many looked again, and saw that the Support Cuban People is more applicable anyway.

 

And meaningless would be relative.

[Milwaukee Eight]

Based on what?

 

None of the people we talked to were happy. That’s exactly why they started business to support themselves. Most want to leave, but can’t.

 

You also didn’t answer my question- what is the intention of the rules if not for making a change in the Cuban system.

 

I’m not even sure why you post in this forum, since you are against people traveling there.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

 

 

I was born and raised in Miami. I completely understand the families that left Cuba and those that have family still there. Cubans have escaped Cuba for years and have always been welcomed here until recently ( one foot dry foot).

 

Don’t know how your so convinced you are helping the Cuban people?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[alfaeric]

I was born and raised in Miami. I completely understand the families that left Cuba and those that have family still there. Cubans have escaped Cuba for years and have always been welcomed here until recently ( one foot dry foot).

 

Don’t know how your so convinced you are helping the Cuban people?

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

Doesn't seem like you know them that well. Certainly not the people we've met. Especially when you see them consuming more like normal consumers. And when you talk to them about the current situation. You talk to people who have left, I've talked to people who are still there. There's natural bias on both sides.

 

I've explained to you why I'm convinced that we are supporting Cuban people. No need to repeat myself.

 

Again, you don't want to go, which is fine. But why do you want to prevent others from going? Makes no sense. It's legal. Even if you don't think so.

[islandwoman]

Again, you don't want to go, which is fine. But why do you want to prevent others from going? Makes no sense. It's legal. Even if you don't think so.

 

I know this isn't addressed to me, but I'd still like to offer my perspective.

 

I'm just trying to figure out what I would have to do in Cuba in order for my visit to be legal. The "full-time" requirement is, as far as I know, undefined.

 

If it turns out that the requirements are not acceptable to me, then I'll cancel my cruise. No one is preventing me from going, although the US government seems to be making it difficult.

[alfaeric]

I know this isn't addressed to me, but I'd still like to offer my perspective.

 

I'm just trying to figure out what I would have to do in Cuba in order for my visit to be legal. The "full-time" requirement is, as far as I know, undefined.

 

If it turns out that the requirements are not acceptable to me, then I'll cancel my cruise. No one is preventing me from going, although the US government seems to be making it difficult.

 

We feel the same for our upcoming trip. So it will be interesting to see of the FAQ stays the same for the "Support Cuban People" licence.

[Milwaukee Eight]

Doesn't seem like you know them that well. Certainly not the people we've met. Especially when you see them consuming more like normal consumers. And when you talk to them about the current situation. You talk to people who have left, I've talked to people who are still there. There's natural bias on both sides.

 

 

 

I've explained to you why I'm convinced that we are supporting Cuban people. No need to repeat myself.

 

 

 

Again, you don't want to go, which is fine. But why do you want to prevent others from going? Makes no sense. It's legal. Even if you don't think so.

 

 

 

Unless the Cuban people you visit with were born before the 50’s, how would they know what they are missing? This Socialistic Communist Country has been run by the Castro Brothers since their revolution. They are not Free people.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[alfaeric]

Unless the Cuban people you visit with were born before the 50’s, how would they know what they are missing? This Socialistic Communist Country has been run by the Castro Brothers since their revolution. They are not Free people.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

LOL- they don't live in a bubble- they do actually see the rest of the world. In spite of what you think. They are far more free today than they were even 5 years ago. What the taxi drivers do for tourists was illegal up to 5 years ago. And that's not even considering US tourists. Now private citizens are allowed to take their "enemy" from up north on tours. And they are more able to talk critically of their country.

 

No, they are not free like we are. But it's not nearly what you have been lead to believe. And, again, I don't understand why you want to stop people from helping keep that change going.

 

FWIW, Vietnam and China are also not free. Yet I bet you send a LOT of money to both of those communist countries.

 

BTW, I wonder how "great" Cuba was in the 50's. Revolutions don't happen by accident. And remember it started well prior to the communists moving in- Fidel asked for help from the US. It wasn't until we turned out backs that the USSR saw an easy opportunity that really turned up the heat on the Cold War.

[nbhwarrior]

Wow quiet on here for 4 days :confused:

[islandwoman]

Wow quiet on here for 4 days :confused:

I'm waiting for some first-hand information from passengers who have sailed to Cuba since the new regulations went into effect.

 

Was there already one such post? I can't find it now.

[SuzCruise]

See my posts #190, 195 and 198. I returned last week. I booked after 6/16. Azamara used it as a way to sell excursions, but you don't need to do a ship's excursion and I recommend Tours by Blexie, who I used and have detailed in other threads. I'm happy to answer any questions. This thread has been hi jacked by a couple of people with no experience visiting Cuba so the helpful posts have been buried in moronic rants. Read through the thread ignoring everything by greeniee and Milwaukee and you'll get some helpful info.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[blooberry]

I booked after June, did one short Azamara excursion and the rest private tours with Orlando, through Tour Republic. It was fantastic and Tour Republic was VERY helpful every step of the way.

 

No one checks anything when you leave the ship (other than your passport). It’s when you board for the first time — you fill out the form and indicate if you’re doing all ship’s tours or private tours. They don’t seem to care which you choose. Just keep a journal of all the educational stuff you did all day, and hang onto it for 5 years.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[islandwoman]

I booked after June, did one short Azamara excursion and the rest private tours with Orlando, through Tour Republic. It was fantastic and Tour Republic was VERY helpful every step of the way. No one checks anything when you leave the ship (other than your passport). It’s when you board for the first time — you fill out the form and indicate if you’re doing all ship’s tours or private tours. They don’t seem to care which you choose. Just keep a journal of all the educational stuff you did all day, and hang onto it for 5 years.

Were you advised about how many hours per day you would have to participate in approved tours in order to meet the "full time" requirement of your license?

[SuzCruise]

Were you advised about how many hours per day you would have to participate in approved tours in order to meet the "full time" requirement of your license?

 

 

 

No, but the most reasonable argument is 8 hours, but that includes time in private restaurants, in stores talking to the proprietor, visiting sites, talking with docents in museums. The Cuban people we met were all very friendly, so a search for a Christmas ornament became a discussion of traditions and suggestions on how to turn a magnet into an ornament (that got me a hug and kiss on the cheek by the grateful store owner) a question in the pharmacy museum became a lesson on the differences in heath care pre and post revolution, the waitress explained her education and why her English is so good, the chef told us his history and the traditions around his dishes. I can go on and on. Your day will fly by and will be filled with "meaningful exchanges" with Cuban people. You don't have to do an 8 hour tour to accomplish the full time requirement, but don't spend the day sitting on the beach.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[IWantToLiveOverTheSea]

I just came back from Cuba on Viking Ocean. There was no evidence of any restrictions on going on/off the ship, although I I didn't try it myself. Viking gave us free, generally lengthy Cuba excursions, so I don't know if anyone went off on a private tour. About the only thing I heard was that one excursion group was told by their Cuban guide (from a U.S. OFAC-approved tour company) that many guides and companies have either received cancellations from tourists or have had to cancel some booked excursions because of the change to the U.S. regulation. It is hurting the tourism industry there.

[islandwoman]

I just came back from Cuba on Viking Ocean. There was no evidence of any restrictions on going on/off the ship, although I I didn't try it myself. Viking gave us free, generally lengthy Cuba excursions, so I don't know if anyone went off on a private tour. About the only thing I heard was that one excursion group was told by their Cuban guide (from a U.S. OFAC-approved tour company) that many guides and companies have either received cancellations from tourists or have had to cancel some booked excursions because of the change to the U.S. regulation. It is hurting the tourism industry there.

Thank you for posting this. Did you learn how many hours per day you needed to spend on an approved excursion?

[vinceb]

I just got back from Cuba--Royal Caribbean Empress of the Seas, Dec 4 departure, overnight in Havana. No one is checking and no one cares about the new regulations. When checking in for the cruise, Royal Caribbean just wanted to see that we had filled out the form; they didn't ask for any "proof" that we were actually doing what we had checked. Once in Havana, we were able to come and go freely, on and off the ship, as much as we wanted. We scheduled three private tours (over two days) and all were wonderful; many other passengers did the same.

 

One thing to be aware of if you book a private tour: it took about one hour for us to get off the ship and through immigration the first time. So give yourself at least that much time before the start of any tour. After the first time, we were able to breeze right off every time after that.

[Milwaukee Eight]

I just got back from Cuba--Royal Caribbean Empress of the Seas, Dec 4 departure, overnight in Havana. No one is checking and no one cares about the new regulations. When checking in for the cruise, Royal Caribbean just wanted to see that we had filled out the form; they didn't ask for any "proof" that we were actually doing what we had checked. Once in Havana, we were able to come and go freely, on and off the ship, as much as we wanted. We scheduled three private tours (over two days) and all were wonderful; many other passengers did the same.

 

 

 

One thing to be aware of if you book a private tour: it took about one hour for us to get off the ship and through immigration the first time. So give yourself at least that much time before the start of any tour. After the first time, we were able to breeze right off every time after that.

 

 

 

That’s not the point. Who cares if anyone on Royal or Cuba checks you. It’s all about the Regulation from the past now again being enforced. The enforcement will be later down the road with the US State Department.

 

It’s like smoking pot, it’s still illegal to do so according to the US Government.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[vinceb]

That’s not the point. Who cares if anyone on Royal or Cuba checks you. It’s all about the Regulation from the past now again being enforced. The enforcement will be later down the road with the US State Department.

 

It’s like smoking pot, it’s still illegal to do so according to the US Government.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

I think it's the Treasury Department making the regulations, not the State Department, but whatever. I was simply trying to relay my experiences to anyone who might be interested (or care). The point is, there's no one enforcing the regulations in either the US (at embarkation) or in Havana.

 

Sounds like you could use a little pot, and chill. :*

[alfaeric]

That’s not the point. Who cares if anyone on Royal or Cuba checks you. It’s all about the Regulation from the past now again being enforced. The enforcement will be later down the road with the US State Department.

 

It’s like smoking pot, it’s still illegal to do so according to the US Government.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

 

 

 

Why do you think it’s illegal? The only thing that changed was the individual people to people license. So if you can go under any other license, it’s legal.

 

Again, it’s clear that you are not going, so why do YOU care so much about others?

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums