NEED A FAIR REFUND POLICY DUE TO VIRUS

[Teach2618]

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5151/
Cruise companies have all seemed to change their policies today . Don’t see refunds as an option in the above article. Not a good sign for refunds??

[Host Jazzbeau]

My TA quoted this paragraph of the T&C to Ponant to request a refund, and they told her they were unaware that their T&C include this provision!  So we have just documented the claim by downloading the General T&C from their website and also with screenshots showing today's date and paragraph 11.9.  

 

Further, the travel documents that Ponant sent last week for our cruise include (printed inside the wrapper in faint grey ink) "Compagnie du PONANT: clauses and terms and conditions for guests and cruise tickets."  Paragraph 8.4 of this printed document includes the identical wording.

 

I don't know French law, but in New York documents like this are called 'adhesion contracts' because the powerful party writes the contract and the weaker party (that would be me) has to take it or leave it.  Such contracts are interpreted strictly against the powerful party – since after all they wrote it.

[Teach2618]

If you look back in thread,page 3 Ponant responded themselves after the policy was quoted here so they do know about it...... my TA also let them know we wanted refund based on their terms and conditions but don’t know if he did it in writing. Other lines previously offering refunds seemed to switch to FCC??? Hope there are no loopholes we are missing. 

[samiam1]

3 hours ago, Teach2618 said:

https://www.cruisecritic.com/news/5151/
Cruise companies have all seemed to change their policies today . Don’t see refunds as an option in the above article. Not a good sign for refunds??

 

Those are all mainly for new bookings, for existing bookings the pre COVID19 rules remain.  A few lines like Crystal have cut existing bookings a break, many though are still trying profit from changed circumstances.  Short term gain though will cause these lines long term pain when customers desert them.

[samiam1]

2 hours ago, Teach2618 said:

If you look back in thread,page 3 Ponant responded themselves after the policy was quoted here so they do know about it...... my TA also let them know we wanted refund based on their terms and conditions but don’t know if he did it in writing. Other lines previously offering refunds seemed to switch to FCC??? Hope there are no loopholes we are missing. 

 

Unaware of their own Terms and Conditions? A likely story indeed.

[samiam1]

2 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

I don't know French law, but in New York documents like this are called 'adhesion contracts' because the powerful party writes the contract and the weaker party (that would be me) has to take it or leave it.  Such contracts are interpreted strictly against the powerful party – since after all they wrote it.

 

Essentially Ponant is repudiating their own contract since they claim to be unaware of it.  I didn't see anything in that contract that allows them to modify it unilaterally.

[ozzicruiser]

Everyone email Ponant

reservations.aus@ponant.com

and express your dissatisfaction that they will not offer a full refund for cruises that they are cancelling.

I have already done so.

 

No insurance company is covering coronavirus because it's a pandemic. 

[Host Jazzbeau]

1 hour ago, ozzicruiser said:

Everyone email Ponant

reservations.aus@ponant.com

and express your dissatisfaction that they will not offer a full refund for cruises that they are cancelling.

I have already done so.

 

No insurance company is covering coronavirus because it's a pandemic. 

 

That's why it's so important that Ponant's T&Cs include the wording: "no matter the reason for cancellation"

[Teach2618]

Here is an article that if you read down lists all the refunds other Cruise lines are offering it was updated on March 15

https://www.usatoday.com/story/travel/cruises/2020/03/14/your-cruise-canceled-because-coronavirus-what-you-need-know/5049580002/

 

[resistk]

22 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

That's why it's so important that Ponant's T&Cs include the wording: "no matter the reason for cancellation"

 

 It is actually a poorly drafted contract but as you said, adhesion contracts are always construed agaist the drafter.

Edited March 18, 2020 by resistk

[Nonads]

Not Happy Ponant. Just had "the standard" cancellation email offering a FCC . Has anyone pursued the refund as set out in their T & C's. 

[resistk]

41 minutes ago, Nonads said:

Not Happy Ponant. Just had "the standard" cancellation email offering a FCC . Has anyone pursued the refund as set out in their T & C's. 

 

How?  At some point I assume they will be sued as lawyers solicit class actions agaist cruise lines.  Their French court only clause is not holding up too well here I see: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/14883202/jones-v-ponant-usa-llc/

Edited March 18, 2020 by resistk

[Teach2618]

I would like to pursue refund based on their T and C, I will be writing them of my intent today and asking why they don’t believe they need to follow them. I will advise as to their response later. Not sure of next steps but will be seeking third party help if necessary. I am not seeking additional damages (though this cancellation will cost me in related expenses] as this case you sited seems to be doing. These are trying times but Ponant needs to act responsibly. Any suggestions of where to turn next would be appreciated

[Wendai]

Earlier this week our cruise was formally cancelled and I was also offered a full credit and 20% discount valid for the next 18 months.  I sent a letter back quoting the relevant paragraphs in the T&C.  Today, I got this response:

"We are not offering any refunds.

As a French-flagged company, our Terms & Conditions are governed by French law, which was just changed to allow travel companies to offer a 100% future cruise credit for 12 months instead of a refund.  However, in an effort of good faith, we are offering a 120% future cruise credit which can be used over a longer period, up to 18 months.  Our decision to offer a future cruise credit, rather than a refund also supports our staff, both onboard and ashore during this crisis, while keeping our industry growing and our guests interested in travelling in the future.  We know a number of cruise lines are choosing to take loans and credit lines in order to pay refunds, which is a decision they make independently.  We have made a conscious choice not to borrow money and to ensure the longevity of our company. PONANT’s shareholder Francois Pinault, who also owns Kering and its portfolio of luxury brands, remains in strong financial standing and is committed to the long term, for our business. To reassure you please see a link below profiling our shareholder. While M. Pinault needs no introduction, the link here from Forbes is most helpful in understanding our level of commitment of resources for the longer term.

https://www.forbes.com/profile/francois-pinault/#75d0dc1c4d20"

 

Not happy.  The problem for me is this.  Firstly, I don't believe we will see the end of this virus stuff for many months, maybe a year.  Once that happens, what cruises will be available and where?  We already have a cruise booked and partly paid for (a charter from Ponant) which is happening in a year from now.  There are also other commitments for time and travel, leaving a scant little amount of time to use up this credit.  It is highly unlikely that we would be in a position to use the credit within the next 18 months.  Are there are legal types within our group that can suggest a course of action.

[Roger88]

Insurance comapnies dont pay much attention to what people want, they dont really care. Revenues are increasing, people keep purchasing full insurance packages and continue to travel with all the risks. If you fail to get your cruise or if your cruise has been canceled, the insurance company profits. It profits in any case and before there would be some sort of oficial statement from the government concerning insurance companies and market situation - nothing will change

[ozzicruiser]

36 minutes ago, Wendai said:

Earlier this week our cruise was formally cancelled and I was also offered a full credit and 20% discount valid for the next 18 months.  I sent a letter back quoting the relevant paragraphs in the T&C.  Today, I got this response:

"We are not offering any refunds.

As a French-flagged company, our Terms & Conditions are governed by French law, which was just changed to allow travel companies to offer a 100% future cruise credit for 12 months instead of a refund.  However, in an effort of good faith, we are offering a 120% future cruise credit which can be used over a longer period, up to 18 months.  Our decision to offer a future cruise credit, rather than a refund also supports our staff, both onboard and ashore during this crisis, while keeping our industry growing and our guests interested in travelling in the future.  We know a number of cruise lines are choosing to take loans and credit lines in order to pay refunds, which is a decision they make independently.  We have made a conscious choice not to borrow money and to ensure the longevity of our company. PONANT’s shareholder Francois Pinault, who also owns Kering and its portfolio of luxury brands, remains in strong financial standing and is committed to the long term, for our business. To reassure you please see a link below profiling our shareholder. While M. Pinault needs no introduction, the link here from Forbes is most helpful in understanding our level of commitment of resources for the longer term.

https://www.forbes.com/profile/francois-pinault/#75d0dc1c4d20"

 

Not happy.  The problem for me is this.  Firstly, I don't believe we will see the end of this virus stuff for many months, maybe a year.  Once that happens, what cruises will be available and where?  We already have a cruise booked and partly paid for (a charter from Ponant) which is happening in a year from now.  There are also other commitments for time and travel, leaving a scant little amount of time to use up this credit.  It is highly unlikely that we would be in a position to use the credit within the next 18 months.  Are there are legal types within our group that can suggest a course of action.

Ponant has blinkers on, they just don't see the bigger picture. If Mr Pinault is so wealthy and doesn't need to borrow money then he should give us a refund keep us all happy and we'll be return customers. 

Treating us the way they are currently guarantees we will never cruise Ponant again. 

[Teach2618]

5 hours ago, Wendai said:

Earlier this week our cruise was formally cancelled and I was also offered a full credit and 20% discount valid for the next 18 months.  I sent a letter back quoting the relevant paragraphs in the T&C.  Today, I got this response:

"We are not offering any refunds.

As a French-flagged company, our Terms & Conditions are governed by French law, which was just changed to allow travel companies to offer a 100% future cruise credit for 12 months instead of a refund.  However, in an effort of good faith, we are offering a 120% future cruise credit which can be used over a longer period, up to 18 months.  Our decision to offer a future cruise credit, rather than a refund also supports our staff, both onboard and ashore during this crisis, while keeping our industry growing and our guests interested in travelling in the future.  We know a number of cruise lines are choosing to take loans and credit lines in order to pay refunds, which is a decision they make independently.  We have made a conscious choice not to borrow money and to ensure the longevity of our company. PONANT’s shareholder Francois Pinault, who also owns Kering and its portfolio of luxury brands, remains in strong financial standing and is committed to the long term, for our business. To reassure you please see a link below profiling our shareholder. While M. Pinault needs no introduction, the link here from Forbes is most helpful in understanding our level of commitment of resources for the longer term.

https://www.forbes.com/profile/francois-pinault/#75d0dc1c4d20"

 

Not happy.  The problem for me is this.  Firstly, I don't believe we will see the end of this virus stuff for many months, maybe a year.  Once that happens, what cruises will be available and where?  We already have a cruise booked and partly paid for (a charter from Ponant) which is happening in a year from now.  There are also other commitments for time and travel, leaving a scant little amount of time to use up this credit.  It is highly unlikely that we would be in a position to use the credit within the next 18 months.  Are there are legal types within our group that can suggest a course of action.

We agree with you 100%. We too have two other trips deposited in the next year and they Ponant are not offering a comparable cruise to the Norway one we were taking.  They have not answered my letter but from your response I don’t know where to go next. I have asked a lawyer to review the T&C from when I booked and the revised ones they posted now. Perhaps I will see if I can verify French law has changed as they claim. It’s a lot of money but I too think in the long run Ponant will suffer from their short sightedness. 

[resistk]

52 minutes ago, Teach2618 said:

We agree with you 100%. We too have two other trips deposited in the next year and they Ponant are not offering a comparable cruise to the Norway one we were taking.  They have not answered my letter but from your response I don’t know where to go next. I have asked a lawyer to review the T&C from when I booked and the revised ones they posted now. Perhaps I will see if I can verify French law has changed as they claim. It’s a lot of money but I too think in the long run Ponant will suffer from their short sightedness. 

 

Here is the Tourism Code - I doubt it says Ponant can unilaterally change its contract regarding refunds.

http://codes.droit.org/CodV3/tourisme.pdf

 

[resistk]

6 hours ago, Wendai said:

. While M. Pinault needs no introduction, the link here from Forbes is most helpful in understanding our level of commitment of resources for the longer term.

 

https://www.forbes.com/profile/francois-pinault/#75d0dc1c4d20"

 

 

I doubt M. Pinault agreed to guarantee anything.  Hold onto to that letter.  And it is unlikely there is any law or court that will uphold a contract that can be changed at will by a single party with NO notice.  I find it instructive that Ponant does not cite the law it claims allows them to tear up their contract with passengers.

Edited March 19, 2020 by resistk

[samiam1]

So Ponant is claiming they can change the contract without notice after an event occurs that triggers the refund clause? I don't think that will hold up in any court. Any future cruiser should think twice before giving Ponant a nickel. They obviously have thought this through and are using the the "French Court" clause as a bluff to deter litigation and chargebacks.  I also would like to see the actual French Tourism code section that allows a tour operator to skip out on its obligation tor efund with no notice; this smells to high heaven.

[ozzicruiser]

I have a b2b2b cruises booked of which I've only paid a deposit and have to weigh up do I forfeit the deposit because I don't fancy paying the balance and ponant holding onto my money and only giving me a FCC. 

[Teach2618]

Agreed this doesn’t seem right, just so hard to deal with. Credit card companies are swamped....

[samiam1]

4 minutes ago, ozzicruiser said:

I have a b2b2b cruises booked of which I've only paid a deposit and have to weigh up do I forfeit the deposit because I don't fancy paying the balance and ponant holding onto my money and only giving me a FCC. 

 

Have your TA ask thPonant, if they are now refusing to return deposits.  If so, I doubt anyone will book with a company that offers such restrictive policies and violates their own contracts at will.  Imagine how Ponant would act if something really serious happened.

[samiam1]

2 minutes ago, Teach2618 said:

Agreed this doesn’t seem right, just so hard to deal with. Credit card companies are swamped....

 

Main point with a credit card dispute is just get it in within 60 days of the statement (at least under US rules).  I also think insurance may apply since Ponant is claiming no refund NOT because of the epidemeic but because changes in the French Tourism Code allow them to do as they please. Ponant is also regulated in Florida and California as a Seller of Travel and I am sure under other coutnries' laws too.

Edited March 19, 2020 by samiam1

[samiam1]

17 hours ago, Wendai said:

 Today, I got this response:

"We are not offering any refunds.

As a French-flagged company, our Terms & Conditions are governed by French law, which was just changed to allow travel companies to offer a 100% future cruise credit for 12 months instead of a refund. 

 

Exceedingly curious, I received no mention of French law but this:

 

Guests booked on cancelled sailings will receive a future cruise credit of 120% to transfer to another PONANT cruise within 18 months of the original date of sailing. Guests wishing to cancel and not take advantage of the Cruise Credit, will be subject to standard cancelation policies/penalties. All policies are subject to change.

However, they also claim they will be open for operations April 20 which we know is not happening.  But since my cruise is in the last part of April I am left hanging even though the cruise  appears on Ponant's own cancelled list.  It appears they just sort of make this stuff up as they go along.  But they will let new bookings cancel without penalty up to 30 days before departure under the new "Worry Free" policy. 

Anyone booked with Ponant should worry.