Just got an email outlining the "NEW" offerings

[no1racefan1]

11 minutes ago, ldtr said:

The question is what is core to the booking and what is incidental.

 

If you buy an airline ticket and between the time you book and the time you fly the airline  changes  what is provided free on the plane, removes a service, or changes prices do you get equally as upset?

 

If you book a hotel and the restaurant raises prices, or stops doing room service.

 

What if the cruise line decided to replace all of the Alfredos with a different specialty venue.

 

Just as with those other examples the recent changes deal with items that are not core to the booking  They are optional incidentals that one may chose to use or not use at the prices.

 

If I book a hotel room that says it includes free breakfast, I'm counting on that as part of my overall trip budgeting. If, at some point after booking, that hotel decides it no longer offers free breakfast, yes, I would be equally disappointed, as that is not what I believed I was getting when I made the reservation.

Edit: actually, this would be slightly less annoying than the cruiseline changes, because I don't pay for hotel rooms in advance.

Edited August 18, 2023 by no1racefan1

[B_A_H]

3 minutes ago, gah_cruise said:

so...at the moment I have a cruise booked for Sep 2034... I have a Plus package which provides 15 alco drinks per 24-hour period....if in 11 mths' time, after I have paid in full, Princess changes the Plus package to 10 alco drinks per 24 hrs...do you think I have the right to be aggrieved....over to you @ldtr

Of course you do. That would be pretty crappy. I'll withhold judgement on drinking between 10-15 drinks per day. 😉

 

But you have three choices: 1) wear your grievance as a badge of honor, 2) accept what happened and move on, or 3) knowing Princess's behavior leaves you vulnerable to a change like that choose not to book with them.

 

In general, when you look at the total cost of a cruise vacation these days, paying the nominal amounts for what used to be be free adds single digit percentages to the total cost.  Is it right or fair?  No.  Can anyone whose run this thread to 23 pages change that?  Also no.

 

There's an old saying.  "Would you rather be right or rather be happy?"  I wouldn't let these changes ruin my cruise nor harbor bitter resentment because they occurred. YMMV.   

 

[whitecap]

7 minutes ago, B_A_H said:

Of course you do. That would be pretty crappy. I'll withhold judgement on drinking between 10-15 drinks per day. 😉

 

But you have three choices: 1) wear your grievance as a badge of honor, 2) accept what happened and move on, or 3) knowing Princess's behavior leaves you vulnerable to a change like that choose not to book with them.

 

In general, when you look at the total cost of a cruise vacation these days, paying the nominal amounts for what used to be be free adds single digit percentages to the total cost.  Is it right or fair?  No.  Can anyone whose run this thread to 23 pages change that?  Also no.

 

There's an old saying.  "Would you rather be right or rather be happy?"  I wouldn't let these changes ruin my cruise nor harbor bitter resentment because they occurred. YMMV.   

 

In my opinion I believe "wear your grievance as a badge of honor" would be a signal to Princess to do whatever they want, and I'll sit down and shut up.  So, no honor there.  "Accept what happened and move on" only signals that you're ok with getting the short end of the stick and will accept anything they do.  Option 3 is obviously a good option.  But there is a 4th: Once they have accepted payment in full for a service, they are obligated to provide that service.  They can change the service for others but by accepting your payment, it becomes a contract, and the contract can only be changed if both parties agree to it.  Now with that said, is someone going to sue Princess for changing the contract without their permission?  I would say, probably not but then who ever thought that someone would sue Texas Pete Hot Sauce for being manufactured in North Carolina and not Texas?  🤔

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, no1racefan1 said:

If I book a hotel room that says it includes free breakfast, I'm counting on that as part of my overall trip budgeting. If, at some point after booking, that hotel decides it no longer offers free breakfast, yes, I would be equally disappointed, as that is not what I believed I was getting when I made the reservation.

Edit: actually, this would be slightly less annoying than the cruiseline changes, because I don't pay for hotel rooms in advance.

However in this case it is more like they still offer free breakfast, just at a different room in the hotel or with a change in the offerings. After all there is still lots of free food on board, even free pizza. Just a change in one venue.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, whitecap said:

In my opinion I believe "wear your grievance as a badge of honor" would be a signal to Princess to do whatever they want, and I'll sit down and shut up.  So, no honor there.  "Accept what happened and move on" only signals that you're ok with getting the short end of the stick and will accept anything they do.  Option 3 is obviously a good option.  But there is a 4th: Once they have accepted payment in full for a service, they are obligated to provide that service.  They can change the service for others but by accepting your payment, it becomes a contract, and the contract can only be changed if both parties agree to it.  Now with that said, is someone going to sue Princess for changing the contract without their permission?  I would say, probably not but then who ever thought that someone would sue Texas Pete Hot Sauce for being manufactured in North Carolina and not Texas?  🤔

Oh someone could try. they would lose. Even much more detailed consumer protection laws such as the PTR in the UK would consider the changes to be incidental and not material. More like the change of a menu in a restaurant, or the failure to deluver a free snack on a plane. Since there is still lots of free food options and still no charge ways to gain access 

 

Thst is without even considering the cruise contract.

[whitecap]

1 minute ago, ldtr said:

Oh someone could try. they would lose. Even much more detailed consumer protection laws such as the PTR in the UK would consider the changes to be incidental and not material. More like the change of a menu in a restaurant, or the failure to deluver a free snack on a plane. Since there is still lots of free food options and still no charge ways to gain access 

 

Thst is without even considering the cruise contract.

I have a different opinion in this case.  A contract is a contract.  If you go into a restaurant and order a burger, the waiter comes back and tells you they are out of burgers, you have paid nothing and therefore there was no contract.  In the drink package case, you have fully paid for your voyage and the extra cost of a drink package that Princess has agreed to by accepting your full payment.  Should they no longer be able to provide the service, then they must either refund the money or offer a new service that you agree to.  

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, gah_cruise said:

so...at the moment I have a cruise booked for Sep 2034... I have a Plus package which provides 15 alco drinks per 24-hour period....if in 11 mths' time, after I have paid in full, Princess changes the Plus package to 10 alco drinks per 24 hrs...do you think I have the right to be aggrieved....over to you @ldtr

Princess has been very consistent. If you pay for a specific option and the rules change after you buy you get what you purchased. Pay in advance for gratuities, and the price goes up, the old price in honored  Buy a package and the price goes up theprice and terms of what you purchased is how honored (funny that the complaints here is that those that paid the old price that are getting exactly what they paid for are in some upset cases upset because they did not get the additions that came with the higher price)

 

Pay for a specific option and Princess has honored those even after the options change. Even those that purchased the coffee card in advance have been able to get it even after the program was eliminated.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by ldtr

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, whitecap said:

I have a different opinion in this case.  A contract is a contract.  If you go into a restaurant and order a burger, the waiter comes back and tells you they are out of burgers, you have paid nothing and therefore there was no contract.  In the drink package case, you have fully paid for your voyage and the extra cost of a drink package that Princess has agreed to by accepting your full payment.  Should they no longer be able to provide the service, then they must either refund the money or offer a new service that you agree to.  

Certainly you have a different opinion.  On a cruise you are not guaranteed that a specific venue will be on board. You are guaranteed that there will be included food venues. If they decided to do away with the buffet or the MDR one would probably have an arguement of a material change. A removal or change in one venue on board not likely. Especially since the primary food offering is pizza and free pizza is available in a different venue.

 

 

[Guest ldtr]

Let me be cleat. One should take changes on any business into account when making future purchase decisions.

 

That said the level of these changes do not represent a material change to a booking.  The same as a change in mdr menu or the replacement of one venue with another would not be.

 

For purchased options such as packages Princess has been very consistent in honoring the term of those items purchased in advance.

[whitecap]

7 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Certainly you have a different opinion.  On a cruise you are not guaranteed that a specific venue will be on board. You are guaranteed that there will be included food venues. If they decided to do away with the buffet or the MDR one would probably have an arguement of a material change. A removal or change in one venue on board not likely. Especially since the primary food offering is pizza and free pizza is available in a different venue.

 

 

The hypothetical present by gah-cruise had nothing to do with pizza but with a drink package.  They entered into a contract with Princess (Princess accepted full payment for the voyage and service to be provided) and then Princess changed the service to be provided without the consent of the passenger.  Princess by failing to comply with the contract, must provided the passenger a refund or come to an agreement with the passenger as to what service will be provided.  

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, whitecap said:

The hypothetical present by gah-cruise had nothing to do with pizza but with a drink package.  They entered into a contract with Princess (Princess accepted full payment for the voyage and service to be provided) and then Princess changed the service to be provided without the consent of the passenger.  Princess by failing to comply with the contract, must provided the passenger a refund or come to an agreement with the passenger as to what service will be provided.  

It is that a hypothetical  As I answered his post Princess has been very consistent in honoring the terns of packages and other options purchased prior to a change. Those that purchased packages prior to a price increase got the price and the terms honored. Those that prepaid gratuities prior to a prince increase got the old price honored. Those that prepaid internet got the price honored. Even those that purchased coffee cards prior to the elimination of the program got those honored  

 

To put it simply his hypothetical is one that is not in line with how such purchases have been treated.

 

 It each case where an option has been purchased those terms have been honored.

 

Totally different then trying to argue that Princess cannot make changes to venue or services that would be optional purchases on board once a booking is made which is basicalky what you are trying to argue.

 

One is far more likely to make a case for and get a refund for not being able to book the two  speciality restaraunt dinners in a package due to no reservations being available, then to argue that the changes to room service or alfredos constitute a material change.

 

That is even without going into the fact that the cruise contract that you agreed to gives them the right to make even much more material changes.

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by ldtr

[JG&Lcruisingnewbies]

51 minutes ago, ldtr said:

If you buy an airline ticket and between the time you book and the time you fly the airline  changes  what is provided free on the plane, removes a service, or changes prices do you get equally as upset?

 

To be honest if I’ve already booked but get on the plane to discover that to get movies I now have to pay to activate the screen, and I need to pay for my meals, then yes.

If I booked months ago & got movies & meals, but the next time I look it’s the same price but without them, I’d moan but that’s it, because I’ve not booked yet.

I know what the deal is & I can make a choice. Look elsewhere, or suck it up & find the cash.

 

What Princess are doing is a penny pinching frustrating change but yes, unfortunately I know they are all doing it.
my issue is that when I paid I knew I got X,Y & Z. Now I don’t and there is nothing I can do about it except pay more to get the same

 

Also, in my mind, something that was no cost at all suddenly carrying a fee AFTER you’ve paid for it, is a lot different than putting up prices of things you knew you had to pay for. But haven’t paid for yet.

 

Others may well see it differently but that’s where I’m at

 

 

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, JG&Lcruisingnewbies said:

 

To be honest if I’ve already booked but get on the plane to discover that to get movies I now have to pay to activate the screen, and I need to pay for my meals, then yes.

If I booked months ago & got movies & meals, but the next time I look it’s the same price but without them, I’d moan but that’s it, because I’ve not booked yet.

I know what the deal is & I can make a choice. Look elsewhere, or suck it up & find the cash.

 

What Princess are doing is a penny pinching frustrating change but yes, unfortunately I know they are all doing it.
my issue is that when I paid I knew I got X,Y & Z. Now I don’t and there is nothing I can do about it except pay more to get the same

 

Also, in my mind, something that was no cost at all suddenly carrying a fee AFTER you’ve paid for it, is a lot different than putting up prices of things you knew you had to pay for. But haven’t paid for yet.

 

Others may well see it differently but that’s where I’m at

 

 

How about if they decided to eliminate the venue entirely and replace it with something different like another specialty restaraunt? Cruise lines make changes incidental to the main conditions of a booking all of the time same as airlines and hotels. Such changes are not frozen when a cruise booking is made any more than when a hotel reservation or an airline reservation.

 

Also this is one venue. With all kinds of included food still available including the major ones and even another pizza option. You might have a case if all include became extra charge or if even one of the main once such as the mdr or the buffet did.

 

These changes are more about changing behavior then the specific revenue.

 

Pretty clear that Princess wants

 

1 increase package sales

2 reduce room service orders by phone

with a potential for 

3. reduce of number of very low on board spend bookings that take up cabins thst might be booked by those with higher on board spending.

 

As far as I am concerned the changes may impact in a minor way some of my choices on board, but I will continue to be a customer with little on board spend except excursions often paid by OBC, because Princess still offers a far better value than the competition.

Edited August 18, 2023 by ldtr

[startedwithamouse]

1 hour ago, no1racefan1 said:

If I book a hotel room that says it includes free breakfast, I'm counting on that as part of my overall trip budgeting. If, at some point after booking, that hotel decides it no longer offers free breakfast, yes, I would be equally disappointed, as that is not what I believed I was getting when I made the reservation.

Edit: actually, this would be slightly less annoying than the cruiseline changes, because I don't pay for hotel rooms in advance.

What if you saw pictures of the free breakfast which included hot items, omlet station, etc. Then your hotel only had a wrapped Danish. Would you complain?

[SCX22]

1 hour ago, gah_cruise said:

so...at the moment I have a cruise booked for Sep 2034... I have a Plus package which provides 15 alco drinks per 24-hour period....if in 11 mths' time, after I have paid in full, Princess changes the Plus package to 10 alco drinks per 24 hrs...do you think I have the right to be aggrieved....over to you @ldtr

 

1 hour ago, whitecap said:

I have a different opinion in this case.  A contract is a contract.  If you go into a restaurant and order a burger, the waiter comes back and tells you they are out of burgers, you have paid nothing and therefore there was no contract.  In the drink package case, you have fully paid for your voyage and the extra cost of a drink package that Princess has agreed to by accepting your full payment.  Should they no longer be able to provide the service, then they must either refund the money or offer a new service that you agree to.  

 

Princess has hold harmless clause in the T&C of the packages.  By purchasing a Plus/Premier package, you are agreeing to "Packages and their parts may be changed or revoked at any time...."  Perhaps don't purchase the Plus/Premier with the cruise fare x number of months in advance where Princess can still change the parts and and instead purchase them on embarkation day when the parts can no longer be changed?

 

 

[whitecap]

1 minute ago, SCX22 said:

 

 

Princess has hold harmless clause in the T&C of the packages.  By purchasing a Plus/Premier package, you are agreeing to "Packages and their parts may be changed or revoked at any time...."  Perhaps don't purchase the Plus/Premier with the cruise fare x number of months in advance where Princess can still change the parts and and instead purchase them on embarkation day when the parts can no longer be changed?

 

 

There is a big difference between "hold harmless" and failure to provide a service one has been paid to perform.  If I pay you in full to paint my house and you decide that you are only going to paint half of the house, you are in breach of the contract.  If I pay in full to Princess to provide me a drink package that contains, a, b, c, d etc. and they decide to drop a and d, without my permission and without us coming to a new agreement, they are in breach of the contract made when they accepted my payment.  It is an easy procedure:  contact the passengers that have paid for the service, explain that they will continue to receive what they paid for however, they can receive additional amenities by upgrading to the new service.  Passenger gets exactly what they paid for or they upgrade to the new package and receive more.  

[whitecap]

19 minutes ago, startedwithamouse said:

What if you saw pictures of the free breakfast which included hot items, omlet station, etc. Then your hotel only had a wrapped Danish. Would you complain?

You bet I would complain.  Just the same as if I booked a room with a king size bed and upon arrival found I had a room with a cot.

[SCX22]

21 minutes ago, whitecap said:

There is a big difference between "hold harmless" and failure to provide a service one has been paid to perform.  If I pay you in full to paint my house and you decide that you are only going to paint half of the house, you are in breach of the contract.  If I pay in full to Princess to provide me a drink package that contains, a, b, c, d etc. and they decide to drop a and d, without my permission and without us coming to a new agreement, they are in breach of the contract made when they accepted my payment.  It is an easy procedure:  contact the passengers that have paid for the service, explain that they will continue to receive what they paid for however, they can receive additional amenities by upgrading to the new service.  Passenger gets exactly what they paid for or they upgrade to the new package and receive more.  

 

That's what Princess is doing.  Everyone that purchased Plus at $50, still gets everything they paid for or can upgrade to Plus 60 and get the extras that were added after the fact.  Same applies to those to purchased Premier at $75.  

Edited August 18, 2023 by SCX22

[whitecap]

14 minutes ago, SCX22 said:

 

That's what Princess is doing.  Everyone that purchased at Plus at $50, still gets everything they paid for or can upgrade to Plus 60 and get the extras that were added after the fact.  Same applies to those to purchased Premier at $75.  

You are absolutely correct, with this added:  at least one venue, that has in the past been offered as a free venue has been added to the drink packages, removed from a "free" venue to a pay venue; room service that has been a free service has been added to the drink packages, removed from free and is now a pay service.  So it isn't just all about the number of drinks or the cost of a drink, it is all the changes in their entirety and most importantly, at least for me, how they went about implementation.  

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, whitecap said:

You are absolutely correct, with this added:  at least one venue, that has in the past been offered as a free venue has been added to the drink packages, removed from a "free" venue to a pay venue; room service that has been a free service has been added to the drink packages, removed from free and is now a pay service.  So it isn't just all about the number of drinks or the cost of a drink, it is all the changes in their entirety and most importantly, at least for me, how they went about implementation.  

Except that free venue was exactly that 1 venue out of many. Removal or conversion of that venue does not materially change the value of the cruise. Plenty of other free food options, even pizza is available.

 

More the equivalent using your house painting analogy that you wanted them to use a brush and take 5 days, but instead they used a spray gun and finished in 2. I would never have paid them that much if I knew thst they were going to finish in 2 days.

[startedwithamouse]

1 hour ago, whitecap said:

You bet I would complain.  Just the same as if I booked a room with a king size bed and upon arrival found I had a room with a cot.

Not the same.  The bed type is always in a hotel booking. In fact, it's chosen when you book.

 

Breakfast is a broad term. 

 

Cruising is a luxury. Not a right.

Edited August 18, 2023 by startedwithamouse

[whitecap]

12 minutes ago, ldtr said:

Except that free venue was exactly that 1 venue out of many. Removal or conversion of that venue does not materially change the value of the cruise. Plenty of other free food options, even pizza is available.

 

More the equivalent using your house painting analogy that you wanted them to use a brush and take 5 days, but instead they used a spray gun and finished in 2. I would never have paid them that much if I knew thst they were going to finish in 2 days.

But we aren't talking about the "value of the cruise".  We are talking about having made a purchase of a service that the provider agreed to, then changed.  As I said before, ensure the purchaser that the service they contracted for will be provided and advise that they can also choose to upgrade.  Their choice.

[startedwithamouse]

5 hours ago, EDVM96 said:

I'm sorry, but you are totally wrong. 

They did change things.

24 hour room service used to be included. Now it's not. 

Correct?

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by startedwithamouse

[whitecap]

4 minutes ago, startedwithamouse said:

Not the same.  The bed type is always in a hotel booking. In fact, it's chosen when you book.

 

Breakfast is a broad term. 

 

Cruising is a luxury. Not a right.

Your post said "hot items" then you received a muffin.  That is a pretty big difference in my book.

[Guest ldtr]

1 hour ago, startedwithamouse said:

Not the same.  The bed type is always in a hotel booking. In fact, it's chosen when you book.

 

Breakfast is a broad term. 

 

Cruising is a luxury. Not a right.

Though I have certainly seen hotels say that the king is not available we do have a room with 2 queens.