Tipping....yes, again

[ldubs]

5 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

Read post 183.

 

Yes,  I read it.   They shared their tipping habit.  The criticism is removal of the daily gratuity.    

[TiredTrucker]

3 hours ago, skridge said:

When you are talking about the livelihood of some of the most amazing hard working people I have ever met I will continue to fight against the disgustingly cheap horrible individuals that remove gratuities.  

 

Good heavens.  At the end of the day we are talking tips, right? You know, that extra reward for good service.  If someone pays their fare as a customer and doesn't feel a tip is warranted than fine, that's for them to decide.  This US notion that somehow tips are really mandatory now for basic service and an additional tip on top of the tip is how we reward good service is, in my opinion at least, dumb and should stop.  I'm not advocating customers don't tip when warranted, that's not the point I'm attempting to make. 

 

Gratuities are still tips.  Regardless of any  private reasons the cruise industry adopted auto gratuities the way it was sold to customers was to streamline tipping across the board and to remove the need to carry cash onboard, right? Not to offset wages we might feel are inadequate.  I don't personally agree that a customer is inherently horrible for not paying an automatic tip for mediocre service.  It's their money, their decision.

[ldubs]

39 minutes ago, TiredTrucker said:

 

Good heavens.  At the end of the day we are talking tips, right? You know, that extra reward for good service.  If someone pays their fare as a customer and doesn't feel a tip is warranted than fine, that's for them to decide.  This US notion that somehow tips are really mandatory now for basic service and an additional tip on top of the tip is how we reward good service is, in my opinion at least, dumb and should stop.  I'm not advocating customers don't tip when warranted, that's not the point I'm attempting to make. 

 

Gratuities are still tips.  Regardless of any  private reasons the cruise industry adopted auto gratuities the way it was sold to customers was to streamline tipping across the board and to remove the need to carry cash onboard, right? Not to offset wages we might feel are inadequate.  I don't personally agree that a customer is inherently horrible for not paying an automatic tip for mediocre service.  It's their money, their decision.

 

I personally have never received mediocre service overall on a cruise ship, but if someone did, they could certainly choose to reduce or eliminate the gratuities.  In additional to those experiencing legitimate service problems, I'm sure there are plenty of folks who use that excuse to pull the grats.  It does go both ways.  Just like someone can pull the gratuity, someone can increase it.  Seems some people are emotionally triggered by anyone who shares they tip extra and others by anyone who shares they pull the gratuities. 

 

BTW, in America I think it is expected to tip at restaurants when service is just satisfactory. 

[mz-s]

People have a multitude of reasons for waiting at guest services, and if they want to do it to remove gratuities then that is their right as long as Carnival calls the corporate subsidy "gratuities" and allows its removal.

 

I personally do not buy into the emotional blackmail that accompanies the ever-increasing burden of tipping culture. I tip what I feel is appropriate for the service I receive. Not triggered at all here.

 

Carnival's standard of service is so far below what it was just a few years ago I think the gratuity/service equilibrium is in need of correction, personally. And so when I sail, I correct it for my folio.

Edited December 18, 2023 by mz-s

[ldubs]

11 minutes ago, mz-s said:

People have a multitude of reasons for waiting at guest services, and if they want to do it to remove gratuities then that is their right as long as Carnival calls the corporate subsidy "gratuities" and allows its removal.

 

I personally do not buy into the emotional blackmail that accompanies the ever-increasing burden of tipping culture. I tip what I feel is appropriate for the service I receive. Not triggered at all here.

 

Carnival's standard of service is so far below what it was just a few years ago I think the gratuity/service equilibrium is in need of correction, personally. And so when I sail, I correct it for my folio.

 

I tip at certain places in America because it is customary and expected.   Do the same on cruise ships.  So far I've avoided being a victim of "emotional blackmail".   I am seldom a victim of anything other than what goes along with old age.   

 

Sorry to hear you are experiencing such dissatisfaction with the Carnival's standards of service.  I have a rule that has served me well about not doing things I don't enjoy.  

[mz-s]

1 hour ago, ldubs said:

 

I tip at certain places in America because it is customary and expected.   Do the same on cruise ships.  So far I've avoided being a victim of "emotional blackmail".   I am seldom a victim of anything other than what goes along with old age.   

 

Sorry to hear you are experiencing such dissatisfaction with the Carnival's standards of service.  I have a rule that has served me well about not doing things I don't enjoy.  

 

Lots of things in our culture used to be customary and expected that aren't anymore. We've lost the plot with tipping. It used to be a small thank you for good service - 10% was more than ample but frequently just a few dollars was all most people left. Now we're directly paying a large portion of wages and at least shoreside, you're expected to tip 20% just because they showed up to work that day and didn't cuss you out. We didn't sign up for this, at least I didn't.

[VentureMan_2000]

3 hours ago, mz-s said:

...  as long as Carnival calls the corporate subsidy "gratuities" and allows its removal.

 

 

Do you think this is true of the restaurants you patronize in the US... that you are subsidizing them with your gratuities ?

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, mz-s said:

 

Lots of things in our culture used to be customary and expected that aren't anymore. We've lost the plot with tipping. It used to be a small thank you for good service - 10% was more than ample but frequently just a few dollars was all most people left. Now we're directly paying a large portion of wages and at least shoreside, you're expected to tip 20% just because they showed up to work that day and didn't cuss you out. We didn't sign up for this, at least I didn't.

 

The tipping guideline percent has certainly increased.  I'm not a fan of the growth in where tips are expected, like counter service, and frequently don't participate.  I read that expansion is a result of the pandemic along with expansion no touch payments.  I still do the traditional stuff, like restaurants, the pizza delivery kid, haircuts, and bartenders.  I have never experienced the expectation of a 20% tip just because someone showed up and didn't cuss at me.  

 

Back to cruising, when I book I understand there is a recommended gratuity and pay it because of the service received. It isn't something new.  You know the recommend gratuity for your cruise line.  You say you don't like the changes.  It might be wondered if it is so awful as to cause one to pull gratuities, why do they keep going back.  

[sanger727]

On 12/15/2023 at 10:28 PM, VentureMan_2000 said:

I don't buy into the severs not making enough money argument... at least not in California.

In California, they eliminated the two-tier pay of restaurant workers decades ago.  They get paid minimum wage regardless of TIPs.  Minimum wage in California is $15.50 per hour.

So, when we go out, we sit at the table for 2.0 hours and our bill is generally $120 or more before taxes.  I normally tip 18%, or $22 for this $120 tab.  So, in 2 hours, our server made $26.50 per hour... but for only one table.  Let's say they have 6 tables to serve, and others' tabs are half mine, but they are only at the table for half the time, or 1-hour.  So, the server is making ( Let's do the math... I like doing the math ) $11 per hour, per table, plus California's $15.50 per hour.  That's $81.50 per hour.

How is that a bad wage... even with hearing over and over the same old bad jokes and smiling at the customers until your cheeks hurt ?
 

 

Yes, in California, servers are certainly being paid extremely well. I think that there should be some accepted adjustment of tips if the servers are also making minimum wage.

 

When I waitressed. Minimum wage was roughly $8 an hour, and tipped minimum wage was roughly $2 an hour. With my tipped minimum wage and tips, across the course of a week, I averaged approx $12 an hour. So, better than minimum wage, but not by much.

 

Customer service is a tricky thing. My biggest issue was guys that were flirtatious; flirting for tips wasn't my job, but people who did made more. I currently have a job with a large customer service component and still have to deal with the same bad jokes, pretending to be pleasant in an unpleasant situation, and dealing with some mild sexual harassment. The difference is that I am paid much better now. And if I loose my cool and tell someone how inappropriate they are being, my pay doesn't go down. 

[ray98]

The extreme viewpoints that come out in these threads always baffle me.  One end is the folks who are content with being the ultimate cheapskate and refusing to tip, the other is those who have elevated the crew to god like status.

 

I always pay the standard gratuity and tip extra as the situation dictates.  However, I am not a charity and don't go throwing $5's around at every crew member so I can get on the net and brag about it.  Yes, they work hard, so do I. They provide a service and area compensated for it, it really isn't a life changing experience.

 

Some of this bragging is just as cringe worthy as the recent social media trend of leaving $1's in a heart or whatever so the giver can take a 'hey look at me' photo for social media.

[ldubs]

13 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Yes, in California, servers are certainly being paid extremely well. I think that there should be some accepted adjustment of tips if the servers are also making minimum wage.

 

 

Fair to say some servers in CA are paid extremely well.  

 

I'm curious.  Are you suggesting if a restnt service person is paid the minimum wage then the tip should be adjusted down?   There is a new wage hour law happening next year in CA that raises the minimum of fast food workers to $20/hour.  Reasoning is they don't get tips so should have a higher minimum.  

[ldubs]

10 hours ago, ray98 said:

The extreme viewpoints that come out in these threads always baffle me.  One end is the folks who are content with being the ultimate cheapskate and refusing to tip, the other is those who have elevated the crew to god like status.

 

I always pay the standard gratuity and tip extra as the situation dictates.  However, I am not a charity and don't go throwing $5's around at every crew member so I can get on the net and brag about it.  Yes, they work hard, so do I. They provide a service and area compensated for it, it really isn't a life changing experience.

 

Some of this bragging is just as cringe worthy as the recent social media trend of leaving $1's in a heart or whatever so the giver can take a 'hey look at me' photo for social media.

 

Maybe it has gone over my head, but I'm just not seeing the bragging on this thread everyone is talking about.  People mention they tip beyond the recommended daily gratuity, just like you mentioned doing the same thing in your post. Is that the bragging? 

[sanger727]

10 hours ago, ldubs said:

 

Fair to say some servers in CA are paid extremely well.  

 

I'm curious.  Are you suggesting if a restnt service person is paid the minimum wage then the tip should be adjusted down?   There is a new wage hour law happening next year in CA that raises the minimum of fast food workers to $20/hour.  Reasoning is they don't get tips so should have a higher minimum.  

 

Yes. In most of the country, positions that usually receive tips make much less than minimum wage. The idea being that their wages are predominately their tips so the employer doesn't need to pay them. If they are receiving full pay from their employer, a 20% tip on top seems overkill. 

[mz-s]

2 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

Yes. In most of the country, positions that usually receive tips make much less than minimum wage. The idea being that their wages are predominately their tips so the employer doesn't need to pay them. If they are receiving full pay from their employer, a 20% tip on top seems overkill. 

 

The point of tipping was never to subsidize companies so they could cheap out on labor. Companies need to pay a fair wage and do away with tipping.

 

I realize I am shouting into the void here - nobody here individually can do anything about tipping culture.

Edited December 19, 2023 by mz-s

[sanger727]

3 minutes ago, mz-s said:

 

The point of tipping was never to subsidize companies so they could cheap out on labor. Companies need to pay a fair wage and do away with tipping.

 

I realize I am shouting into the void here - nobody here individually can do anything about tipping culture.

 

I get it. But that is how it has worked out. Making tipping feel more compulsory since the employee isn't getting paid if you don't tip. 

 

When I waitressed, we also had to tip out the bar staff, the hostess, and the bussers based on your sales. Altogether that was about 30% of my tips. So, not only were the customers responsible for paying me, I was responsible for paying some back of the house employees. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by sanger727

[vwgolf2]

15 minutes ago, sanger727 said:

 

Yes. In most of the country, positions that usually receive tips make much less than minimum wage. The idea being that their wages are predominately their tips so the employer doesn't need to pay them. If they are receiving full pay from their employer, a 20% tip on top seems overkill. 

Wow - how unfair is that? In the UK minimum wage for over 22s is currently £10.42 an hour (about $13.50) and it's specifically forbidden for employers to make up the wage with tips. 

[ldubs]

2 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Yes. In most of the country, positions that usually receive tips make much less than minimum wage. The idea being that their wages are predominately their tips so the employer doesn't need to pay them. If they are receiving full pay from their employer, a 20% tip on top seems overkill. 

 

In all states at least the Federal minimum hourly is required, but as you say, that may be achieved with tips.  If base+tips are less, then the employer must make up the difference.  

 

I've pivoted to join those that would like to see tipping a thing of the past.  My concern with moving away from tipping is it will be the employee who previously benefited from tipping that will suffer the most.  Simply stopping the custom because we don't like it is not the way to do it.  There has to be some transition.  What I don't exactly know.  I suspect to keep those food and beverage employees whole, restaurant and bar prices would have to increase by a lot more than 20% to cover the tax offset.   For people like the pizza delivery kid, taxi/uber drivers, personal grooming places, etc who knows.  

[ldubs]

9 hours ago, sanger727 said:

 

Yes. In most of the country, positions that usually receive tips make much less than minimum wage. The idea being that their wages are predominately their tips so the employer doesn't need to pay them. If they are receiving full pay from their employer, a 20% tip on top seems overkill. 

 

One other point to consider.  If it were mandated that all food and beverage workers were to be paid the minimum wage (Federal or state, whichever is more) and tips were eliminated, that would represent a salary cut for a significant number of people in those jobs.   So again, the question is how do we transition without hurting people filling those jobs.    

[ldubs]

9 hours ago, vwgolf2 said:

Wow - how unfair is that? In the UK minimum wage for over 22s is currently £10.42 an hour (about $13.50) and it's specifically forbidden for employers to make up the wage with tips. 

 

I'm curious. I always hear that a "living wage" should be paid. I wish people would define that.   Is £10.42 an hour the "living wage" everyone talks about?   I would say for the most part our (USA's) minimum hourly wages are not really going to provide much beyond the basic necessities.  

 

As far as the system of base pay + tipping, it may sound unfair until one looks at the results.   A significant number of people working in those jobs are making a lot more than if they were just paid the minimum wage.   As much as I would like to see tipping go away, it has to happen in a way that won't cut salaries.  

[mz-s]

26 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

One other point to consider.  If it were mandated that all food and beverage workers were to be paid the minimum wage (Federal or state, whichever is more) and tips were eliminated, that would represent a salary cut for a significant number of people in those jobs.   So again, the question is how do we transition without hurting people filling those jobs.    

 

10 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

I'm curious. I always hear that a "living wage" should be paid. I wish people would define that.   Is £10.42 an hour the "living wage" everyone talks about?   I would say for the most part our (USA's) minimum hourly wages are not really going to provide much beyond the basic necessities.  

 

As far as the system of base pay + tipping, it may sound unfair until one looks at the results.   A significant number of people working in those jobs are making a lot more than if they were just paid the minimum wage.   As much as I would like to see tipping go away, it has to happen in a way that won't cut salaries.  

 

The invisible hand of the market will decide what the right pay is for the job, as it does for every other job in the market.

 

The McDonald's by my house is paying something like $13 an hour plus a $600 sign on bonus and you get paid every week. If Chili's can't beat that when they do away with tipping, then they'll have to do better. That's how the market works.

[ldubs]

1 minute ago, mz-s said:

 

 

The invisible hand of the market will decide what the right pay is for the job, as it does for every other job in the market.

 

The McDonald's by my house is paying something like $13 an hour plus a $600 sign on bonus and you get paid every week. If Chili's can't beat that when they do away with tipping, then they'll have to do better. That's how the market works.

 

This is a very good point.   

[mz-s]

2 minutes ago, ldubs said:

 

This is a very good point.   

 

Some crew I've talked to are dying to get on Virgin voyages - which is a no tipping line. They pay much better than the tipped lines and they get free internet. Granted Virgin is still a very small line compared to Carnival or Royal, so they aren't making many waves in the industry yet (pardon the pun). But I wouldn't be surprised to see Virgin continue to grow, steal marketshare from the big players, and force them to make changes.

 

The market sorts itself out in most cases.

Edited December 20, 2023 by mz-s

[aborgman]

On 12/17/2023 at 6:23 PM, TiredTrucker said:

Gratuities are still tips. 

 

What the cruise line calls "gratuities" are neither gratuities nor tips.

They are are a service charge.

 

[aborgman]

On 12/17/2023 at 10:50 PM, VentureMan_2000 said:

Do you think this is true of the restaurants you patronize in the US... that you are subsidizing them with your gratuities ?

 

Absolutely.

 

Every establishment that pays anyone less (particularly less than minimum wage) is being subsidized by their customers.

 

See also: low paying jobs that don't offer healthcare being subsidized by Medicaid, and low payed US military members being subsidized by food stamps.

[aborgman]

On 12/18/2023 at 7:49 AM, sanger727 said:

 

Yes, in California, servers are certainly being paid extremely well.

 

75% of servers in California make less than $40,000 per year in 2023.

The average salary in the USA was $60,000 in 2023.

 

Even in California - servers are not being paid extremely well.