VAustralia - New Airline

[MMDown Under]

A new airline has just been announced by Sir Richard Branson, which will commence flying from Sydney to LA from 15th December, connecting with Virgin Blue flights within Australia.

 

Australia and USA have signed an Open Skies Airline Agreement, which should mean more competition and better airfares on the Pacific Route.

[Aussie Cruisers]

Here is the newspaper link...

 

http://www.news.com.au/travel/story/0,26058,23458453-5014090,00.html

 

M

[mochuck]

Woo hoo - some real competition!!!:D

[SelectSys]

I just looked up seats on LAX-SYD $4000 for premium economy round trip versus about $1000 for regular economy. I was hoping for a little better deal on premium economy.

 

By way of comparison, LAX-LHR on VS is $1300 for premium economy and $750 for regular economy for similar dates next January.

 

Some of the difference may be due to the time of year but the 4-1 spread on premium economy seems pretty high (compared to less than 2 to 1 on VS).

[MMDown Under]

Premium Economy is very expensive from Australia and not worth the cost, in my opinion. On the European route, it is often cheaper to get a full business ticket from a secondary airline, or a combination economy/business ticket.

 

I have enjoyed flying Virgin from UK to USA and was hoping Virgin's fares from Australia to USA would be comparable to their fares from UK to USA.

 

Lack of competition on the direct Pacific route is forcing travellers to find alternative routes.

 

I was excited about the new Open Skies policy until I realised that applied only to Australian and USA airlines.

[Globaliser]

Some of the difference may be due to the time of year but the 4-1 spread on premium economy seems pretty high (compared to less than 2 to 1 on VS).

That is very steep. But it looks comparable to premium economy fares on Air New Zealand for the same period.

 

I wonder whether the fares will be revised downwards when Qantas' premium economy product goes on sale later this year, or whether Qantas will be even more expensive. The V Australia PE product looks to be significantly poorer than the Qantas product.

 

It's a bit of a shock to see that price, though. I've just paid less for London-Sydney return in QF's PE.

 

Incidentally, for the geeks amongst us: I see that this airline has been able to get its hands on the VA code!

I have enjoyed flying Virgin from UK to USA and was hoping Virgin's fares from Australia to USA would be comparable to their fares from UK to USA.

...

I was excited about the new Open Skies policy until I realised that applied only to Australian and USA airlines.

Don't forget, though, that V Australia is not "Virgin" and can't be "Virgin", because the Australian arm is only licensed to use the "Virgin" brand domestically. That's why even the trans-Tasman operation is not "Virgin" branded. I wonder how much of the Virgin Atlantic brand philosophy will in fact end up being carried across to this grand-daughter operation.

 

I'm not surprised that Open Skies only applies to the native airlines of these two countries. There seems to be very little that Singapore can offer Australia in return for allowing SQ to cherry pick this one route.

[MMDown Under]

There is something wrong when you can fly UK - Australia Premium Economy cheaper than from USA West Coast - Australia.

 

I wonder what Qantas will charge for PE from NY - Australia?

 

Maybe the Open Skies policy will encourage more American airlines to return to the direct Pacific route.

 

I realise Open Skies policy only applies to native airlines, but had forgotten how few airlines fly on this route (currently only Qantas, Air Canada, Air NZ, United and Air Pacific, via Fiji).

 

In the past we have flown from Australia with the following American airlines, in addition to those mentioned above -

 

• 
  
• Continental
  
• PanAm
  
• NorthWest Airlines and
  
• World Airways

with magical stopovers in Fiji, the Cook Islands, Tahiti and Hawaii, included in the fare.

[mochuck]

I just looked up seats on LAX-SYD $4000 for premium economy round trip versus about $1000 for regular economy. I was hoping for a little better deal on premium economy.

 

By way of comparison, LAX-LHR on VS is $1300 for premium economy and $750 for regular economy for similar dates next January.

 

Some of the difference may be due to the time of year but the 4-1 spread on premium economy seems pretty high (compared to less than 2 to 1 on VS).

 

I really don't understand most of what you've typed there, I'm sorry. What is VS, what is 4-1 spread and which airline are you talking about in your first sentence.

[SelectSys]

I really don't understand most of what you've typed there, I'm sorry. What is VS, what is 4-1 spread and which airline are you talking about in your first sentence.

 

Sorry for the confusion. VS is the airline code for Virgin Atlantic. Here is a link to a listing of codes for various airlines:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IATA_airline_designator

 

Qantas is QF, Jetstar I believe is JQ, and American Airlines is AA are examples of airline codes. Globaliser indicates that VA is the code for Virgin Australia.

 

The 4-1 spread I talked about is the relative price difference between premium economy and regular economy. In other words the price of the premium economy ticket is 4 times more expensive than the regular economy ticket.

 

I was personally hoping for a relative ticket price of something less than twice as expensive like on the routes to Europe.

[SelectSys]

I'm not surprised that Open Skies only applies to the native airlines of these two countries. There seems to be very little that Singapore can offer Australia in return for allowing SQ to cherry pick this one route.

 

This analysis is backed up by the news wires -

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/us-australia-sign-open-skies/story.aspx?guid=%7BE43C7714-0320-44D2-A11E-D98E5A402016%7D

 

"The Sydney-Los Angeles flight corridor is regarded by the Australian government as a key national asset and Canberra has repeatedly rebuffed Singapore Airline's decade-long campaign for access to the route."

 

Do you know if Air New Zealand get anything new out of this agreement? It seems stricly bilateral but is this new treaty somehow influenced by other agreements between US-NZ and US-Australia?

[Globaliser]

There is something wrong when you can fly UK - Australia Premium Economy cheaper than from USA West Coast - Australia.

 

I wonder what Qantas will charge for PE from NY - Australia?

Yes, there certainly seems to be something wrong about that sort of pricing! But, of course, market pricing is market pricing. And the Kangaroo route is, despite its prestige, a relatively low-yielding route - which is why British Airways has been gradually withdrawing from Australia over the last few years, and leaving more and more of the flying to Qantas.

 

And the other thing that is notable about this is the (usual) falsity of the great "new competition" hoo ha. Every airline has a duty to try to extract the maximum fare possible from its customers. Despite whatever marketing hype there may be from a new entrant, if it enters a market in which these fares can still be extracted from customers it will do so. And VA is therefore no different from anyone else, even if it (falsely) promises to bring a brave new world of lower air fares across the Pacific. Maybe eventually - but obviously not yet.

 

And seeing what QF will charge for PE trans-Pacific is going to be very interesting indeed. I wonder how long we'll have to wait to find out. It's possible that one of the things holding up the planning is the fact that the A380 is due to arrive in August 2008 with PE embodied on delivery, but (AFAIK) QF has not yet made any announcements about how it will be deployed. And I can't find the A380 listed in the timetable for any of the usual suspects of routes.

Maybe the Open Skies policy will encourage more American airlines to return to the direct Pacific route.

 

I realise Open Skies policy only applies to native airlines, but had forgotten how few airlines fly on this route (currently only Qantas, Air Canada, Air NZ, United and Air Pacific, via Fiji).

Do you know if Air New Zealand get anything new out of this agreement? It seems stricly bilateral but is this new treaty somehow influenced by other agreements between US-NZ and US-Australia?

One of the things that surprised me was just how fast the Australia-US open skies agreement was all wrapped up from the time that the negotiations were announced to have started, in great contrast to some other open skies negotiations.

 

But this may reflect reality, which is that few airlines actually want to get that involved in this route, at least at the moment. I believe that Continental still has rights to fly to Australia, if it wishes to do so. And Air New Zealand likewise already has rights to fly from Sydney to LAX, which is the highest-yielding plum in this basket. But neither is exercising those rights, which did not depend on the new agreement being made. I wonder why? It may be that the inhibitions which these airlines feel will be also be felt by others.

 

One big problem may actually be aircraft. Many US airlines have no four-engined aircraft any more. And it's very expensive to set up a trans-Pacific operation using twins. You have to be pretty dedicated, and it may be that the effort involved for other US airlines is just too much for what would really be a once-daily route at best.

 

So the main object of the exercise appears to have been to get VA into the act. I seem to recall that Jetstar also has plans/hopes to fly trans-Pacific, so if that's right we may see that happen reasonably soon as well.

[SelectSys]

...

And the Kangaroo route is, despite its prestige, a relatively low-yielding route

 

...

And the other thing that is notable about this is the (usual) falsity of the great "new competition" hoo ha. ... And VA is therefore no different from anyone else, even if it (falsely) promises to bring a brave new world of lower air fares across the Pacific. Maybe eventually - but obviously not yet.

 

...

One of the things that surprised me was just how fast the Australia-US open skies agreement was all wrapped up from the time that the negotiations were announced to have started, in great contrast to some other open skies negotiations.

...

 

But this may reflect reality, which is that few airlines actually want to get that involved in this route, at least at the moment.

...

 

One big problem may actually be aircraft.

...

 

You have to be pretty dedicated, and it may be that the effort involved for other US airlines is just too much for what would really be a once-daily route at best.

...

 

I seem to recall that Jetstar also has plans/hopes to fly trans-Pacific, so if that's right we may see that happen reasonably soon as well.

 

1) Low-yield - I am sure they are being driven lower by the likes of EK. Hence QF's continued desire to find an aircraft that can profitably fly non-stop LHR-SYD year round. Not sure when this is going to happen as the general marketplace for these flights are pretty small.

 

2) Competition - Not really open as you discussed. If it was really open, SQ would be flying LAX-SYD daily as you suggest. I am sure UA and QF would fight any additional "openness"/competition.

 

3) Speed of Treaty - The US probably doesn't view significant competition coming out of Australia compared with the EU. The market between the EU and US is much larger (25-50 times?).

 

4) US entrants - Maybe NW would do it in conjunction with expanded Japanese service. They also have the 787 on order. CO is unlikely until 787 enables service from IAH. Maybe CO Mike might expand beyond Cairns (another Japan play). DL could do it with new 777LR's but they are already spoken for and LAX isn't all that strong for them.

 

I also don't see too much happening on the US side in the near term.

 

5) Jetstar - one of the most interesting aspects of all - QF competiting against itself. This also requires QF's order of 787's to start being delivered.

[MMDown Under]

If budget Jetstar flies Aus - US its fares will be lower, but many will choose to not fly long distance on Jetstar because of its unreliability.

 

Still if it forced VAustralia to lower its fares, that would be a good thing.

 

Re Qantas's (now a private company) monopoly across the Pacific, what governments don't seem to realise is that leisure travel is a perishable product. If people can't get what they want, they make alternative choices. We now fly that route only when we have to. However, I suspect they make their money from business travel, a captive market.

 

With the increasing number of ships being repositioned to Australia/NZ during the summer season, it is going to be difficult for US/Canadian passengers to get seats.

 

I wonder if the future will be charters?

 

Re Continental. Do they still fly to Cairns? Last year, I met an interesting American couple up north, who had flown from Guam to Cairns for a few days, after discovering it didn't cost much more than the US - Guam return flight.

[Globaliser]

1) Low-yield - I am sure they are being driven lower by the likes of EK. Hence QF's continued desire to find an aircraft that can profitably fly non-stop LHR-SYD year round. Not sure when this is going to happen as the general marketplace for these flights are pretty small.

...

3) Speed of Treaty - The US probably doesn't view significant competition coming out of Australia compared with the EU. The market between the EU and US is much larger (25-50 times?).

1) You're right about EK, which is one of the world's airline enigmas. Personally, I choose not to get too upset about it, because of the more important geopolitical significance of the airline. (On a narrow industry basis, it's difficult to understand how they can fairly do what they do.)

 

However, I continue to think that LHR-SYD non-stop (or more accurately, SDY-LHR non-stop) is pie in the sky for the foreseeable future, much though I would like to see it myself. Even if the manufacturers could come up with an aircraft that can do it, which is still not assured, current fuel prices could be a real killer for profitability. One seriously limiting factor is the amount of fuel you burn just carrying the fuel - 3%-4% per hour. So after 20 hours of flying to LHR, the last tonne you burned started off life as about four tonnes loaded at SYD. At current fuel prices, that's pretty punishing.

 

3) When Open Skies treaties with the US take a long time, it's usually not because the US is dragging its feet. The US has a take-it-or-leave-it condition which skews every one of these in favour of the US in a big way. So it comes as no surprise that the US is always the one that's in a big hurry to get them signed.

 

But this time, Australia obviously saw that there was enough in it to make it worth doing the deal now.

[MMDown Under]

Air Canada has created a niche market by flying Sydney to Vancouver non stop during their ski season.

[Globaliser]

Re Continental. Do they still fly to Cairns?

Sort of. It's an Air Mike (Continental Micronesia) route, not mainline.

[MMDown Under]

Velocity, Virgin Blue's frequent flyer programme, advises V Australia is part of Virgin Blue Group of Airlines. Plus you can use Velocity points between Aus and USA.

 

V Australia's seat dimensions -

 

• 
  
• Economy - 18.8" wide - 32" leg room
  
• Premium Economy - 20" wide - 38" leg room
  
• Business - fully flat horizontal bed - 77"

4 times the cost for a ticket for an extra 1.2" width and 6" of leg room is exorbitant.

 

Flying less so we can afford to fly business on long haul flights is looking more attractive by the day.

[Globaliser]

Velocity, Virgin Blue's frequent flyer programme, advises V Australia is part of Virgin Blue Group of Airlines. Plus you can use Velocity points between Aus and USA.

But you were comparing V Australia to Virgin Atlantic, both in fares and service. It's Virgin Atlantic which flies between the UK and the US.

 

Virgin Blue is a very different kettle of fish, run on very different lines. And the company is not allowed to use the "Virgin" name outside Australia.

 

Virgin Atlantic's frequent flyer scheme is called Flying Club, and has no links with Velocity. In fact, you can't either earn or spend Flying Club miles with Virgin Blue. That is how different the companies are.

 

So, as I said, it remains to be seen how much of the Virgin Atlantic brand philosophy that you (and many others) like so much will in fact end up being carried across to this grand-daughter operation.

4 times the cost for a ticket for an extra 1.2" width and 6" of leg room is exorbitant.

It's a very steep price to pay. But those raw numbers won't give you the true picture of what the cabin is like. I have done some back-of-the-envelope calculations for BA's premium economy. Although the raw numbers are similar, you actually end up with about 50% more personal space than in economy. Some of that space is useful, even though it's not reflected in the raw numbers: for example, the gap between the window seat and the aircraft sidewall is one which I particularly value.

 

However, I often end up paying more than 50% extra for the premium economy seat. That's worth it, because there are other important "soft" things like the atmosphere in the cabin, which is usually much quieter and calmer than the jittery nervous tension in economy. That's worth paying some money for; it helps to make the flight more pleasant, even though it's rather subjective and intangible.

[MMDown Under]

Today's Sydney Morning Herald states "Expect real price competition to begin about October, when Virgin, Qantas and United get serious about selling".

 

"V Australia's business plan allows plenty of room for variations in price that would allow, for example, scope to sell regularly available return economy fares of $1500-$1700Aus return".

 

We'll wait and see!

[SelectSys]

... which is usually much quieter and calmer than the jittery nervous tension in economy ... it helps to make the flight more pleasant, even though it's rather subjective and intangible.

 

Great articulation of a phenomena that I have experienced as well! A good percentage of the coach cabin is made up of infrequent flyers that seem to get totally wired on long haul flights! Maybe they do on short haul flights as well but it isn't quite as pronounced on shorter trips or when you are trying to sleep.

[MMDown Under]

From Australia, the best value are "combination" tickets -

 

Economy short haul to Asian gateway (Singapore/Bangkok/KL/HK/Japan/China)

Business long haul to Europe (or USA, via Europe).

 

It is the most affordable luxury for frequent travel, which spoils you for anything else forever.

 

However, we don't have that option to USA.

 

My husband always jokes that when I travel on my own overseas, I fly combination or secondary airline business class, whilst when we travel together we always fly economy.

[Globaliser]

A new airline has just been announced by Sir Richard Branson, which will commence flying from Sydney to LA from 15th December ...

Some bad news for anyone who has booked on an early V Australia service. An announcement today:-

Boeing Strike forces V Australia delay

 

Virgin Blue Airlines Group announced today that an ongoing strike at The Boeing Company’s Seattle plant has forced a delay to the planned 15 December, 2008 launch of its long haul international airline V Australia.

 

The announcement comes after Boeing advised its customers including V Australia that it cannot predict the duration of the dispute and therefore cannot guarantee the delivery date of the airline’s launch aircraft.

 

The manufacturer has ceased to assemble aircraft at the Seattle plant since the strike commenced on 6 September, 2008 when 27,000 members of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers downed tools.

 

V Australia has three Boeing 777-300ER aircraft in advanced stage production at the plant. The strike however has no bearing on services operated by Virgin Blue, Pacific Blue or Polynesian Blue.

 

In the continuing absence of a revised aircraft delivery schedule, Virgin Blue said it considered the only responsible course of action was to nominate a revised V Australia launch date of 28 February, 2009 to protect the interests of its Guests. V Australia’s Brisbane-Los Angeles direct services, due to launch on 1 March, 2009, are not affected.

 

Effective from today, V Australia will commence contacting all Guests booked to travel in the Christmas/New Year period from 15 December, 2008 to 16 January, 2009 to offer alternative arrangements.

 

The airline has also suspended further advance ticket sales for travel between 15 December, 2008 and 28 February, 2009 in case the Boeing strike, now in its fourth week, should be prolonged.

 

Virgin Blue said should the industrial dispute be resolved in the short term, the airline would move swiftly to bring forward V Australia’s start-up schedule. The company said the impact of the serious delay would be addressed between Virgin Blue and The Boeing Company at a later date.

 

V Australia said it appreciates the support of those Guests who have already booked on the new airline and whose travel will be unavoidably impacted by the Boeing strike. Accordingly the airline will honour its commitments and offer one of the following alternative arrangements to Guests booked to travel between 15 December, 2008 to 16 January, 2009:

• Guests who rebook on V Australia on or after 1 March, 2009 will be reaccommodated on their choice of flights. As a gesture of goodwill we would also provide a $200 voucher for travel on Virgin Blue’s Australian network.
• A full refund, if our Guests prefer.
• An alternative flight on another airline, arranged at our expense, if our Guests prefer.

[OHCruisinDad]

Some bad news for anyone who has booked on an early V Australia service. An announcement today:-

 

I received the following email from Qantas Vacations regarding the delay and Qantas' offer of assistance to those holding VAustralia tickets.

Qantas Vacations Aids Travelers affected by Virgin Launch Delay

 

Following the postponement of the launch of Virgin’s VAustralia flights between Los Angeles and Sydney, Qantas Vacations and partner Qantas Airways are offering to assist the thousands of Americans now uncertain about their trips DownUnder this holiday season

Qantas Vacations is offering to assist travelers holding tickets on VAustralia by helping them rebook their international flights with Qantas Airways. In addition, Qantas Vacations is giving a $100 per person credit to spend on land arrangements in Australia when they rebook.

After delaying its launch from December 15 until February 28, 2009, VAustralia has offered its ticket holders a choice of full refund or the choice to travel after March 1.

Qantas Airways is increasing its capacity to Australia in October when it launches its flights on the new Airbus A-380. Qantas is the first carrier to offer flights on the A-380 from the United States,

To contact our Qantas Vacations Reservation Staff directly please call Toll Free 800-248-5826

[Globaliser]

After delaying its launch from December 15 until February 28, 2009, VAustralia has offered its ticket holders a choice of full refund or the choice to travel after March 1.

That is so naughty, given that the V Australia press release specifically says:-

Accordingly the airline will honour its commitments and offer one of the following alternative arrangements to Guests booked to travel between 15 December, 2008 to 16 January, 2009:

• Guests who rebook on V Australia on or after 1 March, 2009 will be reaccommodated on their choice of flights. As a gesture of goodwill we would also provide a $200 voucher for travel on Virgin Blue’s Australian network.
• A full refund, if our Guests prefer.
• An alternative flight on another airline, arranged at our expense, if our Guests prefer.

[mochuck]

Yers, very naughty. Sort of like taking two bites of the same cherry isn't it?