Using credit cards- chip and pin?

I read some mentions of using a pin code with a credit card to withdraw cash from ATMs. For regular purchases, will I be able to use a credit card as I do in the US or (swipe and sign or just swipe) or will I need to use a pin code for those too?

Thank you.

Most people don't use a credit card at an ATM- that will generate large fees as cash advances. You would use your ATM card with PIN code, just like at home.

The question is always credit cards and whether or not you need a PIN and chip card. The answer has consistently been you might need a PIN and chip card for unstaffed locations, like machines in train stations, and possibly for some small venders. But the vast majority of places will take your standard US style card, at least for a little longer.

Be aware that for small purchases- say under 25 euros, many places won't take credit cards at all.

Your questions are excellent, but the answers are not simple. Since Bruce has already explained the "Cash Advance" issue we will move on. The situation varies throughout Europe (and even within Italy) and is in a constant state of change. So lets talk about options. Regarding ATM/Debit cards, as long as they are on a network such as Stars, Plus, Visa, etc. they should work in Europe. Look on the back of your card for network info. The traditional magnetic strip ATM cards are still the norm (although newer Chip ATM cards are starting to show themselves) and will work fine in most of Europe. But make sure you notify your issuing bank about your trip (and itinerary) as this will prevent security issues when the system detects the unusual use patterns (i.e. being used in Europe). You will have a maximum withdrawal limit (it can be less than what you have at home) which is often capped at about 300 Euros (but it does vary).

When you use your ATM card there will be a screen that lets you choose your language and it will often have a British flag for English. If your card is rejected, do not keep trying. Just move on and try a different machine (from a different bank). We recommend sticking with bank ATMs and avoiding privately owned ones (like Travelex).

As to Credit cards, both Visa and MC are widely accepted in Europe although some Italian restaurants still accept cash only! Amex is not as widely accepted. You do need Chip/PIN if you want to use certain vending systems (such as gas pumps, toll booth machines, parking meters, etc). But a majority of merchants will still accept the obsolete US issued magnetic strip cards. In fact, most of the major problems we have had using magnetic strip cards have been in Belgium and some other Northern European countries. In France and Italy we have seldom had a problem....YET! Make sure you notify each of your credit card companies of your upcoming trip and itinerary...as this heads off security issues.

One other tip about credit cards. Do not hesitate to ask BEFORE you commit to a purchase if they do accept the US card. This is especially important in restaurants if you do not have enough cash to cover a tab. It is a real bummer to finish a meal, go to pay, and have them say they cannot accept your card. It does happen, and it has happened to us several times (mostly in Belgium).

If you are planning an extensive trip and expect to charge lots of things, consider getting yourself a credit card that charges little or no foreign exchange fees. Most cards charge you 2.5% - 4% in fees for every foreign purchase. But some cards (the CapitalOne MC is one of the more popular) have no fees.

Hank

I read some mentions of using a pin code with a credit card to withdraw cash from ATMs. For regular purchases, will I be able to use a credit card as I do in the US or (swipe and sign or just swipe) or will I need to use a pin code for those too?

 

Thank you.

We just got back from a cruise that began in Southampton and ended in Copenhagen. We added five days of independent travel in London pre-cruise and three days in Copenhagen post-cruise. Since none of our ports were Italian ports, what I'm about to say may have some limited usefulness. However, I thought CC members would still appreciate hearing a first hand report about the state of credit cards in at least one region of Europe.

Do not make yourself crazy worrying about the kind of credit card you'll be bringing to Europe! The standard advice is you'll be fine making purchases processed by a human even if your credit cards are the old swipe and sign cards, the least technologically sophisticated. The standard advice goes on to say, for purchases at machines, you'll need both a chip credit card and PIN. Not quite!

I visited ten countries in Western/Northern Europe (The Netherlands, Belgium, Russia, Poland, and the UK), on the Baltic Sea (Estonia and Lithuania) and Scandinavia (Finland, Sweden, and Denmark). I was carrying new credit cards, full European style Chip and PIN cards. Of the dozens of purchases I made, including two at machines, I only used my PIN once!

Every time, I used my card, instead of the hand-held charge device asking for my PIN, the machine would spit out a printed receipt for me to sign. The lone exception was charging our admission to the VASA ship museum in Stockholm using the un-manned machines. (That had the extra layer of challenge since there was no option to ask for instructions in English. I just used my instinct and hoped I was putting my PIN in at the right time. It worked.) Using a machine in the Underground in London, I should have been required to use my PIN based on the standard advice, but I wasn't asked.

Before we left, there had been a thread on the UK/Western Europe board that basically said US banks have been inflexible about change, claiming their customers want the convenience of signature rather than PIN. Therefore, they won't be switching to a full chip and PIN card. In the near future, their new cards will include a chip for added security, but they won't be offering PINs. As a result of this stone-walling, the charge devices in Europe are set up to generate a receipt for signature every time the machine detects a US bank. It doesn't matter whether you actually have a PIN. If you're using a US credit card, you'll rarely -- if ever -- be offered the opportunity to use your PIN.

So don't spend a lot of time phoning banks to ask about their best-for-Europe credit cards. Don't spend a lot of time stressing over your credit card. Our experience suggests that for the moment, all US credit cards are acceptable without a problem.

(I'm going to be re-posting this on the other boards.)

I may be the only one that had this happen, but on my last Mediterranean cruise a few years back, I used my ATM card on the ship. The next day, I went to use it again on the ship, and my card was declined. Turns out that, although I contacted my bank and advised that I would be traveling in Europe, the ATM charge came through as Miami because that is where NCL is located. My bank shut my ATM card down for the rest of my cruise, because they said I couldn't be in two places at one time. Luckily, my husband's debit card was ok, because he had a more extensive travel history than me.

So, when you contact your bank to advise of your travel plans, make sure you tell them which cruise line you will be on and where they are located so that city can also be noted. I haven't had a problem since that time, but thought I should put my experience out there.

Pet Nit Noy: I wonder if your experience had to do with your card being a USA-based Chip card. Only a handful (I've only heard of 3) cards are true C&P cards. Others have C&P, but they are set to C&Sig as primary so they are useable in the US where C&P POS technology is nil. I thought of this because you had slips spit out of the handhelds for you to sign….

One of my credit cards has a chip and I have a PIN for it, but it is always considered a C&Sig card outside the US.

But, I could be wrong.

We would expand on Pet's excellent post. When using a Chip/PIN card in various types of vending machines (tickets, parking, etc) if the total amount is below a specific amount (and this seems to vary) you will not be asked for your Pin. It will simply spit out your purchase and usually a receipt. If you use your card on a toll road it is often accepted in seconds with no receipt (unless specifically accepted). But you do need that Chip card as a magnetic strip card (like most in the USA) will not function in the machines.

As to Chip/Signature vs. Chip/PIN this is a complex issue which we once explained in great detail. Suffice it to say that even a good Chip/PIN card that is issued in the USA (the Andrews FCU Global Trek Visa is a great example) that does have a proper PIN, is programmed (by the issuing bank) to default to Chip/Signature as long as that option is available. So if in a restaurant and you insert the card in the machine (that they bring to your table) it will usually spit out a receipt (to be signed) rather then request a PIN. But if in a situation where there is capability of signing (such as an automated gas pump or train ticket vending machine) it will ask for the PIN. The reason is that the cost to a US bank is less for a signature transaction then it is for a PIN transaction.

And it gets even more complicated on French toll roads! If driving in the south of France the US issued Chip/PIN card will work fine at toll booths. But if you in the north of France the US issued card will be rejected (even though it is a valid Chip/PIN card). The reason is that the French use two different private companies to operate their toll roads. One has a contract that allows them to accept the US issued cards, and the other failed to negotiate their contract. Only in Europe :). We ran into this problem on a toll road outside of Strasbourg and it caused a bit of a traffic back-up. The poor French employee who had to come running to our lane mentioned that we were not the first that day.

Hank

Pet Nit Noy: I wonder if your experience had to do with your card being a USA-based Chip card. Only a handful (I've only heard of 3) cards are true C&P cards. Others have C&P, but they are set to C&Sig as primary so they are useable in the US where C&P POS technology is nil. I thought of this because you had slips spit out of the handhelds for you to sign….

One of my credit cards has a chip and I have a PIN for it, but it is always considered a C&Sig card outside the US.

 

But, I could be wrong.

Actually, we're both saying the same thing with one difference. I understand you to be saying the card itself has a code to default to Chip and Signature mode. My understanding is that the European card readers have a list of responses to whatever card is inserted. When the readers encounter a US issued credit card, the response is to treat it like a Chip and Signature, although it actually could function like a true Chip and PIN. (And there's proof that it successfully functioned as a Chip and PIN on one occasion.)

I know of four US credit cards that are supposed to be true Chip and PIN cards. Interestingly, three of these are military credit union issued cards: Andrews Federal Credit Union, Pentagon Federal Credit Union, Navy Federal Credit Union, and United Nations Federal Credit Union. I was carrying two cards from among this list of four.

If you use your card on a toll road it is often accepted in seconds with no receipt (unless specifically accepted).

I noticed that using my Chip card in European card readers was a somewhat slower process than using my swipe cards in the US. The first time I made a purchase in London -- breakfast at a Pret a Manger branch -- I stuck my Chip card in the machine and, without looking at the instructions, pulled it back out about as fast as I might have done swiping a card in the US. I got an error message and the clerk asked me to try again. This time, I actually read the prompts on the screen with the end result that the card was left in the reader longer than US shopper are used to -- perhaps as long as five seconds -- but it worked just fine.

Lesson learned. Follow directions!

But make sure you notify your issuing bank about your trip (and itinerary) as this will prevent security issues when the system detects the unusual use patterns (i.e. being used in Europe).

Many of us buy train tickets, admission tickets, theater tickets, tour reservations, etc in Europe before we even walk out the door to start our trip. This easy ability to made charges in foreign currencies creates security issues of the sort Hank mentions, with a slight twist. Call your bank in advance to alert them that you're about to make a purchase in Europe even though you're still at home. You'll need to go to a currency conversion site like XE.com to figure out how much the charge will be in US dollars. Then, call your bank's fraud department. Provide the name of the company whose name will appear on the charge and the US dollar equivalency.

For example, we did this when booking tours with both the Canterbury Cathedral (UK) and with Canterbury Tourist guides for the town. We used the same credit card we actually use traveling in Europe to avoid the foreign transaction fees.

We ended up booking so much in advance, that our bank suggested we set up a layer of security with Visa, the bank that actually handles the card. By establishing a layer of security in advance, we no longer have to phone the bank about advance foreign charges. When making an internet charge, we have to answer some prearranged security questions and that will allow the charges to go through without human intervention.

We would expand on Pet's excellent post. When using a Chip/PIN card in various types of vending machines (tickets, parking, etc) if the total amount is below a specific amount (and this seems to vary) you will not be asked for your Pin. It will simply spit out your purchase and usually a receipt. If you use your card on a toll road it is often accepted in seconds with no receipt (unless specifically accepted). But you do need that Chip card as a magnetic strip card (like most in the USA) will not function in the machines.

 

As to Chip/Signature vs. Chip/PIN this is a complex issue which we once explained in great detail. Suffice it to say that even a good Chip/PIN card that is issued in the USA (the Andrews FCU Global Trek Visa is a great example) that does have a proper PIN, is programmed (by the issuing bank) to default to Chip/Signature as long as that option is available. So if in a restaurant and you insert the card in the machine (that they bring to your table) it will usually spit out a receipt (to be signed) rather then request a PIN. But if in a situation where there is capability of signing (such as an automated gas pump or train ticket vending machine) it will ask for the PIN. The reason is that the cost to a US bank is less for a signature transaction then it is for a PIN transaction.

 

And it gets even more complicated on French toll roads! If driving in the south of France the US issued Chip/PIN card will work fine at toll booths. But if you in the north of France the US issued card will be rejected (even though it is a valid Chip/PIN card). The reason is that the French use two different private companies to operate their toll roads. One has a contract that allows them to accept the US issued cards, and the other failed to negotiate their contract. Only in Europe :). We ran into this problem on a toll road outside of Strasbourg and it caused a bit of a traffic back-up. The poor French employee who had to come running to our lane mentioned that we were not the first that day.

 

Hank

Hank, I am so happy to hear that we are not the only Americans who have disgraced the USA by backing up traffic for miles at a French toll booth. Unfortunately, the French employee who had to come out to our car as the result of the confusion was not as congenial and the one you encountered. As soon as we were on our way I immediately pulled out the Rick Steves book and started reading up on toll booths. :rolleyes:

Hank, I am so happy to hear that we are not the only Americans who have disgraced the USA by backing up traffic for miles at a French toll booth. Unfortunately, the French employee who had to come out to our car as the result of the confusion was not as congenial and the one you encountered. As soon as we were on our way I immediately pulled out the Rick Steves book and started reading up on toll booths. :rolleyes:

LOL. The problem with the Rick Steve books is that there is significant lag time between when the book is written and finally published. The entire toll booth fiasco in France is just par of the course when it comes to DIY travel. Even the most experienced and well informed traveler will encounter these kind of situations and must learn to just laugh and chalk it up as one more travel experience :). We do know that the French government is well aware of the credit card issues on their toll roads. Whether they choose to deal with the issue (by beating their contractors over their tetes) is another story.

Hank

Much of it has been covered above but I just want to add a few deetails. Indeed, emv chipped cards have imbedded on the chip a list of card verification methods (cvm's). 99% of the cards issued in the USA have signature as the #1 verification method for purchases. So when travelling outside the USA, if the point of sale (pos) terminal can process signature transactions as almost all of them can, it's game over. The terminal will flash signature required, a signature slip will be generated and you will be asked to sign even if you think you have a chip and pin card. Every so often you may encounter a terminal which either doesn't follow the cvm's or cannot process signature transactions and in that case you might be asked for a pin. Rare but it happens.

Many cards do have pin as a lower priority. For a long while, this was necessary to use many kiosks say the sncf machines at CDG airport. The best way to describe these cards is signature priority with pin capabilities. That is what say the Andrews card or the SDFCU or the Pen FCU cards do and for the most part they worked that way. However, for example JP Morgan Chase do not have pin as a cvm so these cards at one time would not work at kiosks which led to some people claiming chip and signature cards were useless. Not true as we will see a bit further on.

As of today, the only two cards issued by US financial institutions that have pins on a higher priority than signature on the cvm's are UNFCU and just recently First Tech FCU. Several others do this but are either not currently available or very restricted as to eligibility so it's a waste of time for US residents to try to call their banks and get a chip and pin card which is not signature preferred. They don't exist.

Now what has happened is much of this was instigated by visa which claims Americans prefer signatures and that also Americans tend to carry more credit cards than others and might have difficulty matching up different pins with different cards. Draw your own conclusions. Is signature less secure than pins. Well only in the case if the card is actually lost or stolen (nobody checks signatures any longer in the USA and in many cases, for small purchases, merchants don't even bother asking for signatures as most Americans probably already know). Most of the security inherent in emv compliant cards is provided by the chip itself. Up till now credit card thieves have not bothered to try to clone emv compliant cads as it is so easy to clone a magnetic strip. Once the USA converts completely to chip cards, we'll see if these hackers can come up with ways to comromise the emv chips. However, for the time being, it is claimed that lost or stolen card fraud is very low so US networks do not see the need for that reason to convert to pins. Again, draw your own conclusions.

Finally as part of this whole deal, the networks have implemented new regulations effective as of 01 July requiring that all emv cards must be accepted at kiosks and the like even if they don't have pins on their cvm's as many don't. In some cases, this has already taken place. For example, the sncf kiosks at CDG will now accept any USA chip card even without a pin. Can anybody guarantee this will always work that way. No of course not but it is evident this problem to a large degree is being resolved.

So that's it. If you're a USA resident and desire a pin preerred card, the only places to go as of today are UNFCU and First Tech FCU. All other US issued cards will almost always default to signature like it or not. Some will request a pin for use in a kiosk but all should work even without a pin. Please don't kill the messenger. I am only hyour humble messenger and there's no sense in preaching to the choir.