Koningsdam Promenade Deck

I do not agree with the plans to have musters inside. For a muster... fine. For a real emergency.... you need people outside where they need to be. Close one fire zone OK? I don't want to another 500 or 1,000 people waiting on the other side of a fire door. We learned a lot of the loss of CONCORDIA. Too expensive to go back to the old days.... until it happens again.

I think there are pros and cons for either muster inside or out. Mustering outside it realy bad weatherconditions may not be optimum. Or is there is a fire where your muster station is (well, that could be true for indoor mustering too).

I think there are pros and cons for either muster inside or out. Mustering outside it realy bad weatherconditions may not be optimum. Or is there is a fire where your muster station is (well, that could be true for indoor mustering too).

Muster is for 'drill' for most people is for twenty minutes 'nuisance' and would rather get it over as quickly as possible. At sailing time... they cannot send people into the rain so can have a muster inside... just listen to the announcements.

As for all HAL musters over the years.... Muster outside at the boats. If there MIGHT be an emergency and make a long time at your station.... passengers will be into a lounge or other space. This is very easy.

Now... if the muster/drill is inside you are there and you have to stay put. If the emergency required action where do you go to get out onto deck? Where... there is not enough space out on deck.

I agree that the easy muster would be inside.... but the other option should be there if necessary.

Ships are getting so big that the numbers of passengers and crew... are just getting too unmanageable.

I think the HAL ships should be the upper limits. The big RCI ship. I shudder should anything go wrong.

Stephen

Stephen

The decision as to whether muster locations are inside or outdoors is not an easy one, and cannot be changed for the sail away drill and actual emergency. I get a kick out of people who say, "well, the muster drill was outside on XXXX ship, at least as of last month". Ships will almost never change muster locations from outside to inside, or vice versa, once built. There have to be studies made of access and egress points, traffic flow patterns, and human behavior patterns to see whether, particularly, an indoor space can be used for a muster location. This all has to be approved by the flag state and the classification society, and must comply with appropriate SOLAS requirements.

There is a lot of confusion over what is required at a muster drill, and what the whole thing is about. In fact, SOLAS allows that the instructions regarding life jacket donning and general ship's safety procedures can be covered by a loop TV presentation that is available in passenger cabins, or the videos presented in the indoor muster locations. However, the muster drill must take a count of passengers, and must be in the location where the count would be made in an actual emergency.

Lots of people don't know what the muster is all about. It is for accountability. If there is a fire or other emergency, the crew will respond, generally to the "code" messages. If the on-scene commander advises the Captain that the emergency is of such magnitude that a passenger muster is required, the Captain can decide to do so. This gets the passengers out of the "hot zone", and gets them all counted. If my fire teams know that there are no passengers or crew in a fire area, or that everyone is accounted for, they can then focus on one less thing. This muster can happen when there is not even a hint that the ship will be abandoned, and can last for hours, until the emergency is resolved.

Both inside and outdoor muster stations can be compromised in an emergency. As I posted on another thread about muster drills, outdoor muster stations can be uncomfortable for long periods, but an exterior fire could drive the Captain to move people to a secondary location, maybe inside or out. If there is an inside muster location, and it is located in the same fire zone as the fire, regardless of how many decks separate them, all of the ventilation for that fire zone will be shut down, so the inside muster station will likely be even more uncomfortable as an outdoor one.

I professionally have mixed feelings about the indoor/outdoor debate. Mustering on the promenade deck under the boats, to me, was always an accident looking to happen. If the passenger alarm is passed soon after the crew responds to an emergency, the crew will be prepping and lowering the boats while the passengers are making their way to the muster locations. Prepping and lowering boats is always a dangerous operations, especially when untrained passengers are in the way. Inside muster locations require more time to get everyone to the boats, should that be necessary, but do provide shelter during extended emergencies.

Topsham, you say we learned a lot from the Concordia. I'm not sure where you're going here. I have studied the Concordia, and posted quite a lot about it in the last 3 years. The Concordia had outside muster locations, and still had chaos in evacuating. The real lessons to take from the Concordia are ones that responsible and experienced senior officers have known for decades. One is that getting the passengers herded together sooner rather than later is always easier, and safer. The second is that more training of crew, down to the lowest position onboard is required, and that realistic training (I've suggested using home office personnel to simulate passengers and then holding an evacuation drill) is required to get officers and crew to react properly in emergencies. Until you are staring down the fire, you never know whether you will run towards it or away. However, none of this had anything to do with muster station locations.

ChEng...

 

 

 

It looks that the keel of the boats will be over on the deck... but close to the ship's side. Just partly exposed. Just a few distance to swing the boats out. Mind... it would only moments to move the boat as in the Vista class. What I don't like about modern ships is that they cannot be moved should they loose power.... and even with the reserve in the hydraulic system. You know... hydraulics and one pin hole and you loose the system... even it only one boat isolated. Have enough experience of hydraulic systems.... hatch covers, shell side doors, winches etc. It is always something small that makes the whole system 'useless'!

 

Gravity davits are preferred, but remember that davits are part of the emergency switchboard, so even in a case like the Triumph or Splendor, where all main power was lost, and the emergency generator could not supply power to hotel functions, it could supply to those services required to evacuate the ship, so there are two separate power sources. Now, in the Concordia disaster, where the emergency generator failed, this is the fault of the Captain, the Chief, Costa, the Italian Maritime Authority, and the classification society in not ensuring that proper drills, tests, and maintenance is performed. As for the hydraulic systems, again, if proper maintenance is performed, you won't have pinholes in the piping, the system will stay charged, and it will work as designed. Besides, the davits are such that if you even get them moving a little, and lose the hydraulics, gravity will pretty much act to swing the boat out. You cannot design a completely failsafe system, and the human element in testing and maintenance will always be present.

Gravity davits are preferred, but remember that davits are part of the emergency switchboard, so even in a case like the Triumph or Splendor, where all main power was lost, and the emergency generator could not supply power to hotel functions, it could supply to those services required to evacuate the ship, so there are two separate power sources. Now, in the Concordia disaster, where the emergency generator failed, this is the fault of the Captain, the Chief, Costa, the Italian Maritime Authority, and the classification society in not ensuring that proper drills, tests, and maintenance is performed. As for the hydraulic systems, again, if proper maintenance is performed, you won't have pinholes in the piping, the system will stay charged, and it will work as designed. Besides, the davits are such that if you even get them moving a little, and lose the hydraulics, gravity will pretty much act to swing the boat out. You cannot design a completely failsafe system, and the human element in testing and maintenance will always be present.

'Gravity' davits do not use power to do anything. They might be telescopic or radial hydraulic davits, but they are certainly not 'gravity' davits.

"Besides, the davits are such that if you even get them moving a little, and lose the hydraulics, gravity will pretty much act to swing the boat out."

Please tell how this works? 'get them moving a little' How? Tell the passengers to 'push!'?

'Gravity' davits do not use power to do anything. They might be telescopic or radial hydraulic davits, but they are certainly not 'gravity' davits.

 

"Besides, the davits are such that if you even get them moving a little, and lose the hydraulics, gravity will pretty much act to swing the boat out."

 

Please tell how this works? 'get them moving a little' How? Tell the passengers to 'push!'?

I don't know what type the K'dam will have, but they may be of the "semi-gravity" type. Gravity davits of the pivot or multi-pivot type are common, particularly on older ships, and require no stored energy other than gravity.

A semi-gravity davit uses the hydraulics to initiate the movement, and when the davit reaches the balance point, gravity takes over. In some cases, the pivot point is in an "over-center" arrangement, where a very small nudge takes the mechanism over a small securing hump to start gravity activation. Unless the hydraulic system is completely discharged (and this is what I mean by proper maintenance), there will be enough energy to actuate the davit. And a "pinhole" would not normally dissipate hydraulic energy fast enough to prevent a system from working, unless it has leaked long enough to discharge the accumulator and no one has noticed the oil leaked on deck. Now, if you try to operate, and the system blows a line completely off, then there is a problem.

I don't know what type the K'dam will have, but they may be of the "semi-gravity" type. Gravity davits of the pivot or multi-pivot type are common, particularly on older ships, and require no stored energy other than gravity.

 

A semi-gravity davit uses the hydraulics to initiate the movement, and when the davit reaches the balance point, gravity takes over. In some cases, the pivot point is in an "over-center" arrangement, where a very small nudge takes the mechanism over a small securing hump to start gravity activation. Unless the hydraulic system is completely discharged (and this is what I mean by proper maintenance), there will be enough energy to actuate the davit. And a "pinhole" would not normally dissipate hydraulic energy fast enough to prevent a system from working, unless it has leaked long enough to discharge the accumulator and no one has noticed the oil leaked on deck. Now, if you try to operate, and the system blows a line completely off, then there is a problem.

A nudge? Nope. Vista class.... the arms are at least 20 to 25 degrees off the vertical. No nudge will move the arms are up to vertical before the weight of the boat. Should the vessel experience a list another five or ten degrees and the boats are useless. The S Class? No nudge will move the telescopic arms.... no gravity will help then that. Far too much reliance in a lot of these designs. Heck,no designers even know what is going to happen if we have a huge vessel with thousands of passengers. They just hope for the best.

Chief... which passenger ships did you work on?

Norwegian Sky.

Ah.... OLYMPIA!

Almost 20 years. Sailed in the VICTORIA. One of the last old Costa style before CCL.

How is SKY? Lasting well?

A bit of trivia. The master in COSTA OLYMPIA when built was Capt Mario Polombo.... ex Home Lines Oceanic, Atlantic, Homeric. His home is in Isla Giglio. He was the friend of Capt Schettino. You don't need any more!

Ah.... OLYMPIA!

 

Almost 20 years. Sailed in the VICTORIA. One of the last old Costa style before CCL.

 

How is SKY? Lasting well?

 

A bit of trivia. The master in COSTA OLYMPIA when built was Capt Mario Polombo.... ex Home Lines Oceanic, Atlantic, Homeric. His home is in Isla Giglio. He was the friend of Capt Schettino. You don't need any more!

It's been 7 years since I was on the Sky. I was onboard first when she was still the Sky, then for the entire time as the Pride of Aloha, and finally took her to Freeport for reflagging back to Bahamian flag. She was at that time, suffering from corrosion from the time that she sat for a year partially completed between Vulcan Bremen and LloydWerft in Bremerhaven.

I always tell people who are interested in taking a cruise for the first time to pick their ship carefully and to spend some time looking at the deck plans. One of the reasons hubby and I sail with HAL are the beautiful promenade decks. Nothing beats a walk on the promenade deck and those beautiful vistas of the rocky mountains; fjords; sunrises and sunsets; whales; dolphins and flying fish; etc. One of the first things we do when we board HAL is to walk the promenade deck and one of the very last things we do on disembarkation day is take a slow walks while the ship enters its final port and docks.

 

http://www.hollandamerica.com/main/DeckPlans.action?ship=ko&deck=p&deep=0

 

Now, maybe I am not reading the deck plans carefully; and maybe the image of the Koningsdam is inaccurate; but has anyone else noticed that the lifeboats will be completely blocking the views on the promenade deck?

 

Link to Promenade Deck Walk on the Nieuw Amsterdam:

If they block, we will get used to partial views. Since I burn easily and am subject to skin cancer, I see that as a bit of a positive. I am more bothered by the fact that is seems the Sea View elevators are gone. I really like them.

It's been 7 years since I was on the Sky. I was onboard first when she was still the Sky, then for the entire time as the Pride of Aloha, and finally took her to Freeport for reflagging back to Bahamian flag. She was at that time, suffering from corrosion from the time that she sat for a year partially completed between Vulcan Bremen and LloydWerft in Bremerhaven.

Thanks. Very interesting.

Here is something to see.... the 'promenade deck' on the new P&O Britannia. Not much space to get through. It is going to be a squeeze to get passenger from muster point and then through embarkation into lifeboats!

Similar design to Celebrity new ships, spoils the main deck experience entirely... guess I will stick to the older ships, doing the same with the new Princess ships too.

I, too, will miss sitting on the Promenade Deck watching the water when we go on the Konigsdam transatlantic in October. Only thing you can do, I think, is to be sure and emphasize your displeasure of having little to no shade on an open deck when you fill out your customer satisfaction survey (or email). I know for a fact that they read them.

Thanks for the info. .