Cunard Transatlantic for younger passengers in Summer?(plus a few questions)

I had to look that up. I can assure you that they are not a thing in the UK.

 

However, when I think of the fashion industry, Australia does not jump to the forefront of my mind.

A little colonial jab? Speaking of UK fashion I recently saw a jumper with an outline of the UK coloured in with the union jack. Underneath it read "Were #1" - quite funny and so true.

London might still be a fashion centre, but the rest of the UK is a wilderness in that department. The climate in Australia is very different and so we don't have the same kinds of fashions as one finds in the Nothern Hemisphere. But I can find good, appropriate clothing here and higher end stores can now get stock in from Europe should they not have it.

As for meggings, these featured heavily in men's fashion magazines from the UK for quite some time. It was (and is) a thing over there - I even saw them in high end stores. There were even articles about them in mainstream London and national papers - for you older, less fashion conscious folks :) and yes, I even saw guys wearing them out and about.

But cravats? Nowhere to be seen and I haven't seen one in a magazine or on a catwalk in recent years. If only the meggings also disappeared!

As someone still in her twenties I will give you my take:

I am completely baffled by someone who currently lives in Australia calling all other parts of the UK a fashion wilderness at this time. A wander round various other cities and specialist shops and events will tell you otherwise. Meggings never really took off from my observations and tight jeans have always been a staple for most people my age and younger. Maybe its just the UK but I have seen cravats on various famous folk in the papers from formal style to dandy loose scarf.Regardless of this, dressing for fashion is something that is little too boring for me personally and shouting over each other about which country has the best fashion is little school playground.

To build on the etymology specifics I will quote this article I found while researching the issue earlier:

The fashion of wearing knotted scarves in England as well as the word "cravate" in the form of "the cravat" introduced King Charles II in 1660, upon his return from exile. Later on from the expression „to tie the cravat“ a new name developed for the cravat in English - the "tie" and "necktie".

Today, the original word cravat in modern English signifies a wide straight piece of fabric worn loosely tied round the neck, most often tucked inside an open-necked shirt.

Considering that the word "cravat" originally meant a tied scarf, and has been accepted by the majority of languages in the world to denote the modern tie, the proposal of Academia Cravatica is to re-establish, also in English, the original word "cravat" instead of the words "tie" and "necktie".

As someone still in her twenties I will give you my take:

 

I am completely baffled by someone who currently lives in Australia calling all other parts of the UK a fashion wilderness at this time. A wander round various other cities and specialist shops and events will tell you otherwise. Meggings never really took off from my observations and tight jeans have always been a staple for most people my age and younger. Maybe its just the UK but I have seen cravats on various famous folk in the papers from formal style to dandy loose scarf.Regardless of this, dressing for fashion is something that is little too boring for me personally and shouting over each other about which country has the best fashion is little school playground.

 

To build on the etymology specifics I will quote this article I found while researching the issue earlier:

 

The fashion of wearing knotted scarves in England as well as the word "cravate" in the form of "the cravat" introduced King Charles II in 1660, upon his return from exile. Later on from the expression „to tie the cravat“ a new name developed for the cravat in English - the "tie" and "necktie".

 

Today, the original word cravat in modern English signifies a wide straight piece of fabric worn loosely tied round the neck, most often tucked inside an open-necked shirt.

 

Considering that the word "cravat" originally meant a tied scarf, and has been accepted by the majority of languages in the world to denote the modern tie, the proposal of Academia Cravatica is to re-establish, also in English, the original word "cravat" instead of the words "tie" and "necktie".

I've been to the UK multiple times. Outside of London is just like being outside of Sydney - the suburbs and the regional areas are fashion wildernesses. The same applies in the US. There's NYC and then there is America.

I don't think you've been to Sydney given your lack of knowledge about the stores we have. We get the summer and winter lines from the top designers just as London, NYC, and Paris.

While the history lesson is nice, the fact that you are referencing the 17th century surely says cravats are well and truly out of date. Each to their own, but cravats are not a thing these days and in a modern context they look truly ridiculous.

That's my take :)

I've been to the UK multiple times. Outside of London is just like being outside of Sydney - the suburbs and the regional areas are fashion wildernesses. The same applies in the US. There's NYC and then there is America.

 

I don't think you've been to Sydney given your lack of knowledge about the stores we have. We get the summer and winter lines from the top designers just as London, NYC, and Paris.

 

While the history lesson is nice, the fact that you are referencing the 17th century surely says cravats are well and truly out of date. Each to their own, but cravats are not a thing these days and in a modern context they look truly ridiculous.

 

That's my take :)

The fact you tar vastly different countries and cultures with the same 'the capital is where it all is' and 'top designers' brush speaks volumes about your limitations and ideas in clothing. I have not been to Sydney and even if I had visited a few times I wouldn't have the knowledge or audacity to criticise Australia's tastes based on a few visits. I take it from your replies your are older and might be quite traditional in tastes which is certainly not how we like to do it the UK but each to their own.

I wasn't giving a history lesson, I was giving a Etymology lesson and they are quite different. People called for a tie at formal occasions and was simply representing that the Cravat is that using our wonderful fluid English language.

I feel this has reached a natural conclusion without descending into madness and since 'Cravat gate' has been settled I think I'm done.

Thanks for the thoughtful responses and those people know who they are.

I think, possibly, the key to the question is the matter of the "open neck" shirt. An open neck shirt on a Cunard formal night may seem rather "casual" no matter how smart the cravat. On the other hand, I doubt you would be refused entry. Personally, I like Cunard for its more strict dress code which is much more formal that other ships. In the end, only you and your husband can make a decision.

I think, possibly, the key to the question is the matter of the "open neck" shirt. An open neck shirt on a Cunard formal night may seem rather "casual" no matter how smart the cravat. On the other hand, I doubt you would be refused entry. Personally, I like Cunard for its more strict dress code which is much more formal that other ships. In the end, only you and your husband can make a decision.

I think you make a very fair point and I think it's clear traditionally, there is no doubt that with a fastened collar, a cravat tied in the correct way would most definitely be classed as formal wear and as a tie. Other ways of presenting the cravat may be traditionally less formal.

I do however feel from some comments on here, that some people feel that Cunard is simply defined by its formality and dress code. I'm extremely passionate about Cunard line, I've read many books and my fondness stems from a fascination with their history from growing up as a little boy. In my opinion it is a shame that some people believe Cunard are simply defined by their Royal associations, formality and "rules". The line stands for far more than that; In fact by having a class system, Cunard has never been exclusive to the upper classes and their traditions. The vast majority of its passengers did not enjoy such conditions or luxury.

In Liverpool we are extremely proud of our association with Cunard and it is still very much loved by the local public. Liverpool as many of you are aware is certainly not home to the largest number of Royalists and doesn't necessarily conform to the rules, yet it adores Cunard.

In May people will witness the pride that the city has in it's association with this great shipping line. People will turn out in their hundreds of thousands. Would a Royal visit draw such crowds? It most certainly wouldn't!

The point I'm making is that Cunard doesn't just stand for high society, high end cocktail parties and balls, it has a soul and a character that's allowed it to survive, whilst other, often more palatial lines have faded away. The standards of food and formality on the French lines for example were far greater than they ever where on Cunard. Being the fastest, most efficient and reliable service is what really drove the success of Cunard across the Atlantic with the original Queens.

There is still a huge pride in the UK design and construction of the great Cunard ships, such as the original Queens, QE2 and Mauritania. We are also very proud of the British led design of the majestic QM2. These great ships were not designed/built to such high standards simply because Cunard was extremely strict in it's definition of what constituted a tie.

When you go on a transatlantic crossing, you realise there are still many people using it as a way of getting from A to B in a pleasant and relaxing environment and as an alternative to a flight. Let's maintain our traditions and the high expectations of dress code but please let's not define Cunard line as being an exclusive line, defined by pedantic discussions over appropriate tie selections. In my experiences of the people I've met on Cunard, it is not some exclusive club of the high society and Victorian values but is a real reflection of a cross section of British and international society who respect their history but don't live in 1932.

Today a lovely, intelligent young women has posted on this forum and has clearly from her comments, ended the day feeling a little drained by the personal comments of a few of the posters on this thread. Multiple criticisms of her and her husbands, choice of fashion and their lack of ability to understand what is meant by formal attire. In reality the only suggestion about her husbands dress that could be questioned, is whether his shirt can be open (an opinion both of them are aware of and can make provision, if they feel that is appropriate.)

I guess though, at least we should feel proud, as we've let her know that her ideas of formality and what constitutes good fashion are clearly wrong and in doing so we've protected Cunard and everything it stands for in the process! Well to me politeness and respect is a far more important British and Cunard value, however it's clear that some people see things differently.

I may be of the younger generation, as is the poster but it does not make us naive to history and it certainly does not mean we want to destroy all of the traditions. I think in many ways we make the extra effort, spending good money to show our willingness to maintain tradition. However that does not mean we can't evolve our interpretations of the dress code, as long they stay within the criteria of formal dress, as outlined by Cunard. It is clear that this has happened with female dress onboard, as not everyone is wearing a 1920's style cocktail dress. QM2 is not a museum, it's living and breathing, a magical microcosm of society, in which traditions and individuals should and are respected by nearly all. It's what makes the magnificent Ocean liner so special and unique!

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I do however feel from some comments on here, that some people feel that Cunard is simply defined by its formality and dress code.

Any man wishing to wear a black velvet jacket with a dark shirt and a cravat on a summer crossing (as outlined by the OP) certainly has every right to do so.

My question is what color/pattern of the tie (cravat) would work best with a dark velvet suit and dark shirt on a summer crossing?

 

I may be of the younger generation, as is the poster but it does not make us naive to history and it certainly does not mean we want to destroy all of the traditions. I think in many ways we make the extra effort, spending good money to show our willingness to maintain tradition. However that does not mean we can't evolve our interpretations of the dress code, as long they stay within the criteria of formal dress, as outlined by Cunard. It is clear that this has happened with female dress onboard, as not everyone is wearing a 1920's style cocktail dress. QM2 is not a museum, it's living and breathing, a magical microcosm of society, in which traditions and individuals should and are respected by nearly all. It's what makes the magnificent Ocean liner so special and unique!

Well said! I am of an older generation, but one who thinks Cunard must evolve! As much I I tried to temper OP's expectations as to the appealing aspects of the onboard experience for a younger set, it seems she is wed to make the most of it! So I say hooray, cravats and all, we need to embrace a new kind of Cunard cruiser who both respects tradition and enjoys it in their own unique style.

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Well said! I am of an older generation, but one who thinks Cunard must evolve! As much I I tried to temper OP's expectations as to the appealing aspects of the onboard experience for a younger set, it seems she is wed to make the most of it! So I say hooray, cravats and all, we need to embrace a new kind of Cunard cruiser who both respects tradition and enjoys it in their own unique style.

 

 

 

 

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Does that mean you like your iPad? Only posted twice in place of your signature. :D Not to say I don't respect your unique style ;)

Bow tie. Tie. Cravat. Wear outside shirt collar. All same thing.

Tie collar together = formal.

Cravat worn inside collar = casual informal.

Think noel coward with silk dressing gown.

Take cravat wear cravat no issue. Relax. Enjoy.

But no formal night.

I think I phone cunard.

Cheers.

Well said! I am of an older generation, but one who thinks Cunard must evolve! As much I I tried to temper OP's expectations as to the appealing aspects of the onboard experience for a younger set, it seems she is wed to make the most of it! So I say hooray, cravats and all, we need to embrace a new kind of Cunard cruiser who both respects tradition and enjoys it in their own unique style.

"like" :)

To address one of the original poster's questions about "any time dining" (does anyone remember back that far, with all this discussion of neckwear?), for breakfast and lunch there is basically any time dining in Britannia--come any time during the serving period for that meal, and you can have a table for two or can opt to share. If opting to share, you get randomly put with whoever else is coming in the same time you are. We thoroughly enjoyed the random seating, and got to meet lots of interesting people that way. We also enjoyed our dinners with our assigned table mates in the evenings in Britannia. If you have made new friends on board, you can arrange to meet at some set time and ask to be seated together at breakfast or lunch.

To address one of the original poster's questions about "any time dining" (does anyone remember back that far, with all this discussion of neckwear?), for breakfast and lunch there is basically any time dining in Britannia--come any time during the serving period for that meal, and you can have a table for two or can opt to share. If opting to share, you get randomly put with whoever else is coming in the same time you are. We thoroughly enjoyed the random seating, and got to meet lots of interesting people that way. We also enjoyed our dinners with our assigned table mates in the evenings in Britannia. If you have made new friends on board, you can arrange to meet at some set time and ask to be seated together at breakfast or lunch.

Very good point, I do like the way it works at breakfast and lunch and I think Britannia offers plenty of variety for breakfast and lunch

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Very good point, I do like the way it works at breakfast and lunch and I think Britannia offers plenty of variety for breakfast and lunch.

I hope breakfast and lunch in Britannia doesn't "evolve" into a self service buffet as was asked in one of the emailed surveys. There's a difference between "dining" and "getting fed". Maybe I'm not sympathetic to a new generation that sees the dinner table as an adversary. Dining sensibly and dining leisurely used to be one of the greatest shipboard pleasures.

I hope breakfast and lunch in Britannia doesn't "evolve" into a self service buffet as was asked in one of the emailed surveys. There's a difference between "dining" and "getting fed". Maybe I'm not sympathetic to a new generation that sees the dinner table as an adversary. Dining sensibly and dining leisurely used to be one of the greatest shipboard pleasures.

I'm a little confused by this comment, as I think it's quite clear that I've said that the experience of being served breakfast or lunch in Britannia is one not to be missed :) I don't quite get where the dining table being seen as an adversary to the new generation comes from ;) I think you will find there has been an explosion in fine dining in recent years, driven by the "new generation", wanting to savour the experience of eating a meal and making a real event of it. I know plenty of people of an older generation who regularly frequent the Lido, where I would prefer the formality of the dining room. May it be added that it was not the new generation who added a Lido experience to QE2 over 20 years ago. Something personally I'd happily do without. The definition of the word evolve is "the gradual development of something" I would have used the word revolution if I desired to "overthrow" current traditions, which I most certainly do not want to do. I also hasten to add that to evolve is to develop something, not to regress something,it may shock certain people but there are ways in which the Cunard product can be improved and it would be naive to think it couldn't.

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I would also add that I have made the effort to attend the Verandah restaurant on each of my trips on QV/QE. I very much enjoyed the relaxed pace of dining, the whole meal taking over two and a half hours. It's a shame to see these restaurants often under utilised, as they offer tremendous value for money and offer an experience that a venue with two sittings can't possibly offer. I have enjoyed Britannia of an evening but Verandah offers an experience that is vastly superior, for what in my opinion is a modest additional supplement The degustation menu on QE for example at $35, is in my opinion, brilliant value for money. I didn't try Todd English on QM2, mainly because the menu seemed a bit "gimmicky" and I preferred the classic "traditional" menu of Verandah.

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First of all a tuxedo with bow tie & cummerbund or vest is technically semi-formal. Formal is white tie & tails ala' Downton Abbey.

I personally like to wear an ascot(caravat) on non-formal nights with a sport coat or tux jacket and I usually contrast the ascot ie light ascot with dark shirt and dark ascot with white shirt and I have had many people offer up compliments at cocktail hour and at the dinner table.

On formal nights I usually go with a dinner jacket (tuxedo jacket) with a bow tie, matching to the cummerbund or vest.

If I am in the mood or there is a special formal evening I sometimes go with the White tie & tails and the white pique' shirt & vest. I can tell you that getting a bit dressed up never hurts and I get even more compliments with the aforementioned outfit.

I am sure you recall the formal elegance of the great oceanliner movie "Titanic"

http://images2.fanpop.com/images/photos/3700000/Leonardo-Decaprio-in-Titanic-leonardo-dicaprio-3787848-276-400.jpg

Like they say your actual milage may vary, but I think looking one's best is always a good idea.

Catching up with this I first have to say I LOVE the fashion police discussions-it wouldn't be the Cunard board without them. Just off the first leg of the QM2 World and there were cravats being worn-just a couple but they were there.

The OP, with this being the 175th year, has a man who will surely be about right with his neckwear as the 1840s (from that mighty site Wikipedia) has:-

Shirts of linen or cotton featured lower standing collars, occasionally turned down, and were worn with wide cravats or neck ties tied in several different ways:

1.Around the neck, knotted in front and puffed up to hide the shirt collar and create a pigeon like neck

2.Similar to the first version but tucked down into the waistcoat

3.Around the neck and knotted into a bow tie

4.The "Osbaldiston", a barrel shape knot under the chin

5.Knotted in a wide pointy bow. Dark cravats were popular for day wear and patterned ones were worn in the country

Obviously he is dressing traditionally to honour such an occasion!