Cunard Transatlantic for younger passengers in Summer?(plus a few questions)

[Summergee]

As there seem to be contradictory replies, have you tried calling Cunard?

[pepperrn]

As there seem to be contradictory replies, have you tried calling Cunard?

Excellent idea Summergee :)

 

And if I've misinterpreted the dress-code, I'll be the first to say I am wrong and sincerely thank Velvetwater for clarifying the situation by bringing the subject up :) .

 

As far as I am aware this "open shirt with a cravat on a formal night" question is a new one here, and I am grateful it has been brought up.

 

Best wishes and thank you :)

Edited January 19, 2015 by pepperrn

[Austcruiser84]

This always becomes a very sensitive area in regards to Cunard. I totally agree with earlier posters and I am equally as passionate about dress code standards being upheld.

 

However I believe that by formal, we mean people making every effort to look as smart and well presented as possible. Basically we want to see people making an effort, so they don't look like someone visiting the local pub or nightclub.

 

I've long felt that while female passengers are given every flexibility to wear dresses, long or short and of every colour under the sun and to varying degrees of formality, it is perhaps a bit unfair on gentleman to not in anyway evolve their formal attire.

 

The rules are ambiguous, as clearly dinner jackets or tuxedos come in different colours, so is a bright pink or zebra print one appropriate if a person chose to express themselves in that way. I've also seen girls wearing dinner jackets at formal events, amongst the younger generations, which I'm sure some people wouldn't like but I very much respected the individual's right to express themselves whilst maintaining formality.

 

My point is that styled correctly, with an appropriate suit or dinner jacket, a cravat could certainly convey more of a sense of formality, effort and style and be more in keeping with the efforts of fellow guests at a ball, than a cheap dark suit and awful tie.

 

A formal night should be about making that extra effort, to look polished and extremely well presented, making it obvious that you have gone to that extra trouble for that special occasion.

 

I believe above all that Cunard transatlantic shouldn't become a museum piece or themed hotel. It should embrace traditions, but we want it to continue to be a liner and allow people of all generations to cross the Atlantic, in a sophisticated way. Fashions and rules evolve and it's important we maintain tradition but allow some modifications and expression. I'd certainly suggest that this has occurred with the female fashion onboard over the years, so why not with the males.

 

As long as the rules of dinner jacket/dark suit and some form of neckwear are followed, which they are here, it seems just a variation on the normal but within the rule book.

 

I think often technicalities can scare people off Cunard as they fear will be told you can't sit there or that is reserved for X! That there is a stuffy atmosphere onboard and that the ship takes itself to seriously. That's just not the case and I really believe that as long as fellow passengers see you being respectful of events and dress codes (making the effort to dress up) then you will find it such a relaxed environment.

 

 

 

 

 

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Absolutely agree that moving with the times is important. So, it begs the question as to why an 18th century dress accoutrement is up for debate?!

 

As for coloured options, I have recently seen a burgundy tux jacket that I quite like.

[Underwatr]

I believe above all that Cunard transatlantic shouldn't become a museum piece or themed hotel. It should embrace traditions, but we want it to continue to be a liner and allow people of all generations to cross the Atlantic, in a sophisticated way. Fashions and rules evolve and it's important we maintain tradition but allow some modifications and expression. I'd certainly suggest that this has occurred with the female fashion onboard over the years, so why not with the males.

This is why not:

 

[Velvetwater]

Never realised I had started a new formal wear debate on these forums.

 

I would never get him to throw his cravats away as he gets special wife attention when he wears them ;). The ringing idea is a good one and I will do that today but I just thought it would be ok as when we have been to very strict dress codes before his attire has been fine although someone once said a cravat had to be black at these events as coloured ones are for the day. On land there were other men that were wearing them too along with navy dinner suits and other formal artistic variations including coloured waistcoats etc. We are both quite artistic and he is a musician (although not aging yet) and he is fascinated with various quirks.

 

 

Cravats are actually 17th century and the forefather of ties and bowties :).

 

I feel like I should have started a whole entire post on this issue now but will ring up and come back with my news.

Edited January 19, 2015 by Velvetwater

[capnpugwash]

As there seem to be contradictory replies, have you tried calling Cunard?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that Cunard shoreside might have a definitive answer to any question concerning life on board one of their ships. I'm not convinced that the majority of them realise that they actually own and operate a few.

[Gazroberts80]

Little did you think when you booked a holiday that you could in fact be defining the rules of formal wear on a 175 year old shipping line! I told you QM2 isn't just any holiday :) I think your husband should be forced to dress up in his formal attire and head for Southampton for approval by the board of Cunard before you are allowed to step foot onboard ;)

 

I'm intrigued by the outcome but as I'm sure you are aware such debate is only a sign of the affection that Cunard line is held by many of it's customers, who rightly have a real determination to maintain that special atmosphere on formal nights, which isn't found on most cruise ships. I'm very much behind the formal black cravat, and if it's deemed acceptable by Cunard, I may wear one on the next voyage. Always love a bit of good natured debate on here :)

 

 

Not sure if I could quite dare to pull the Orange and blue suits pictured above off!

 

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Edited January 19, 2015 by Gazroberts80

[Austcruiser84]

Never realised I had started a new formal wear debate on these forums.

 

I would never get him to throw his cravats away as he gets special wife attention when he wears them ;). The ringing idea is a good one and I will do that today but I just thought it would be ok as when we have been to very strict dress codes before his attire has been fine although someone once said a cravat had to be black at these events as coloured ones are for the day. On land there were other men that were wearing them too along with navy dinner suits and other formal artistic variations including coloured waistcoats etc. We are both quite artistic and he is a musician (although not aging yet) and he is fascinated with various quirks.

 

 

Cravats are actually 17th century and the forefather of ties and bowties :).

 

I feel like I should have started a whole entire post on this issue now but will ring up and come back with my news.

 

You've reignited and old debate but with a fresh twist.

 

I've never actually seen any men wearing cravats except one out-there chef on a popular Australian cooking show.

 

Please, for the love of God and good fashion sense, throw them away. It doesn't matter if he's artistic - they look ridiculous! As for special wife attention...maybe save the cravats for that. Buy him a few ties and bow ties - there's a good reason why cravats didn't remain in vogue!

 

At least he's not proposing to wear sneakers with his suit. I saw that on QM2 once and I hope to never see it again.

 

Wheres's the fashion police when you need them?!

[ToadOfToadHall]

Cravats are fine instead of a tie with none matching jacket and trousers, indeed, I myself have taken to wearing one, and did so on our last cruise every informal night.

 

But not with a suit and certainly not with a dinner jacket.

 

Having said that, you won't be turned away if you don't adhere to the dress code. I've seen men in leather jackets, and wind cheater type as well. And one bloke in a stripy suit and a pork-pie hat.

 

One thing I've never understood is if someone is against dressing formally, why choose Cunard ? It's one of their biggest selling points to me - they make a big play of their formality.

[ToadOfToadHall]

Please, for the love of God and good fashion sense, throw them away. It doesn't matter if he's artistic - they look ridiculous! As for special wife attention...maybe save the cravats for that. Buy him a few ties and bow ties - there's a good reason why cravats didn't remain in vogue!

 

You'll find that cravats have made a bit of a comeback in the UK over the last few years.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-28853164

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/20/gentlemen-cravat-back-nicholas-parsons

Edited January 19, 2015 by ToadOfToadHall

[Mysticalmother]

 

One thing I've never understood is if someone is against dressing formally, why choose Cunard ? It's one of their biggest selling points to me - they make a big play of their formality.

 

I will chicken out the Cravat debate at this stage, but I think the answer to Toad's comment above is simply that The only way to cross (the Atlantic) is on a Cunard ship - and preferably the QM2. :)

[Austcruiser84]

You'll find that cravats have made a bit of a comeback in the UK over the last few years.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-28853164

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/aug/20/gentlemen-cravat-back-nicholas-parsons

 

And 'meggings' are also a thing in the UK. Doesn't make it right...

[ToadOfToadHall]

And 'meggings' are also a thing in the UK. Doesn't make it right...

 

I had to look that up. I can assure you that they are not a thing in the UK.

 

However, when I think of the fashion industry, Australia does not jump to the forefront of my mind.

[Gazroberts80]

It very much is the only way to cross the Atlantic (now there is no Concorde) and I think it's clear that our first timers, are well seasoned in formal occasions and like to make an effort. It's just her husband likes to stamp his own identity on his formal look. He clearly takes pride in what he wears and the fact at such an early stage consideration is going into planning outfits, demonstrates they are very serious about really making an effort to dress up and fully engage in the formal occasions on board :)

 

This is certainly not a discussion about wanting to dress down for formal occasions, it's about whether ones interpretation of the outfit is deemed to be appropriate formal wear. Whenever anyone wants to do something slightly different or quirky in terms of a formal outfit, it naturally raises the question! I think he should dress up and we can turn it in a reality TV show and cast our votes, let the forum decide. Of course I'm joking :) :) I just think it's much more Cunard for someone to take pride in what they wear, make a real effort and show a degree of eccentricity, than just pick some cheap black suit off the shelf and add a fake bow tie :)

 

 

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[Velvetwater]

Oh goodness, its got rather wild.

 

 

My Husband is certainly not against dressing formally and owns ties if needed but he, along with myself prefer to express a little personality in the things we wear. With this in mind you can understand why the Tuxedo does not appeal (even with a white or coloured bowtie) so we looked for other ways for formal dress. He also owns a very smart tailored black velvet Jacket which has had outings as well and I am in no doubt will be worn on more informal nights.

 

As someone has already said, a good suit with a cravat and what not would always look better than an old dark suit and a tie from 1975...in my view.

Discussed this with him this morning and he said that if the closed/open shirt is the issue then their are types of shirt that close then have the cravat over the top.

 

By the way, he wont be rocking the Russell Brand look as he thinks he is a twat.

 

EDIT: Just saw Gaz's post after posting and hes absolutely right :)

Edited January 19, 2015 by Velvetwater

[ToadOfToadHall]

By the way, he wont be rocking the Russell Brand look as he thinks he is a twat.

 

Well, you husband is quite right, he is.

[Mid-Atlantic Ridge]

Oh goodness, its got rather wild.

 

 

My Husband is certainly not against dressing formally and owns ties if needed but he, along with myself prefer to express a little personality in the things we wear. With this in mind you can understand why the Tuxedo does not appeal (even with a white or coloured bowtie) so we looked for other ways for formal dress. He also owns a very smart tailored black velvet Jacket which has had outings as well and I am in no doubt will be worn on more informal nights.

 

As someone has already said, a good suit with a cravat and what not would always look better than an old dark suit and a tie from 1975...in my view.

Discussed this with him this morning and he said that if the closed/open shirt is the issue then their are types of shirt that close then have the cravat over the top.

 

By the way, he wont be rocking the Russell Brand look as he thinks he is a twat.

 

EDIT: Just saw Gaz's post after posting and hes absolutely right :)

 

I think you and your husband are exactly the kind of couple that Cunard should encourage. You seem to have a sense of doing what's right, the desire to fit in without offending and if I may say, a desire to do it in a benign and somewhat quirky or off-beat way.

 

Me? I'm an old stick in the mud that dresses in a black tuxedo, white shirt, black bow tie, shiny shoes and sober dark socks and so on, but I would never object to being in your company on board a Cunard ship, in fact you both sound delightful.

 

M-AR

[luckymal]

Oh goodness, its got rather wild.

 

 

My Husband is certainly not against dressing formally and owns ties if needed but he, along with myself prefer to express a little personality in the things we wear. With this in mind you can understand why the Tuxedo does not appeal (even with a white or coloured bowtie) so we looked for other ways for formal dress. He also owns a very smart tailored black velvet Jacket which has had outings as well and I am in no doubt will be worn on more informal nights.

 

As someone has already said, a good suit with a cravat and what not would always look better than an old dark suit and a tie from 1975...in my view.

Discussed this with him this morning and he said that if the closed/open shirt is the issue then their are types of shirt that close then have the cravat over the tBy the way, he wont be rocking the Russell Brand look as he thinks he is a twat.

 

EDIT: Just saw Gaz's post after posting and hes absolutely right :)

 

Lets finish this debate. Cunard say on FORMAL nights BOW TIE or TIE to be worn, your hubby can wear cravat on SEMI FORMAL and hopefully everybody will be happy.:D

[Gazroberts80]

A cravat is a tie, it is just one form of a tie. There are multiple ways of tying a knot in a piece of fabric. For example Windsor, Half-Windsor, Four in a Hand and Pratt knot. Therefore Cunard's definition is ambiguous. I just find it incredibly harsh that somebody has been extremely polite and gracious, but have been told on more than one occasion, that the way they dress/clothes they wear are dreadful choices. This is despite the fact they have both attended many formal functions and their choice of dress has been seen to be highly appropriate by those around them.

 

They've booked a holiday to travel on QM2 and are extremely keen to be well presented on a formal night. I can say categorically that there is no way that someone wearing a smart dark suit or tuxedo, with a black formal cravat will be asked to change on a QM2 formal night.

 

I really hope that the husband of the good person who posted the initial message, choses to wear a cravat; I'm sure a huge number of people will comment on how splendid he and his good lady look. Cunard was founded 175 years ago, it wasn't formed to reflect Royal traditions and etiquette; It was a good, honest and most importantly safe shipping line, that over the years evolved a reputation for high standards in first class, it also carried many far from rich people to a better life in the New World.

 

So I think people need to get some sense of reality. Surely as a male, as there has been for female passengers on Cunard, there should be an allowance for a degree of evolution or flexibility to what defines a formal outfit in the 21st century. This has most definitely happened with the female dress over the last 50 years or so. The fact that the modifications, do not contradict with the "rule book", being a dark suit and black tie (black formal cravat), makes the discussion seem even more silly. It's a total myth if people think Samuel Cunard defined formal dress 175 years ago and since that very day everyone on board has been following his tradition to the letter.

 

I think what people should actually realise, is that politeness and respect are great British traditions and need enforcing; They are significantly more important than the exact definition of which type of black tie is appropriate for formal occasions or which specific knot is used . Let's not lose our sense of perspective of the great Cunard line. I'm passionate about Cunard and it's origins but subtle evolutions of formal wear certainly don't threaten what Cunard stands for. In fact people not feeling welcome or embraced, because people insist on quoting rules books at them, is the biggest threat that regular Ocean crossings by our great Ocean liner faces.

 

I don't mean this to be a criticism of some incredibly knowledgable and polite members of this forum, who have offered me valuable advice whenever I've asked. However I just don't think there should be a place for people criticising people's fashion choices and making derogatory comments.

 

 

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Edited January 19, 2015 by Gazroberts80

[Velvetwater]

Lets finish this debate. Cunard say on FORMAL nights BOW TIE or TIE to be worn, your hubby can wear cravat on SEMI FORMAL and hopefully everybody will be happy.:D

 

The website doesn't say that though and this is where the problem lies as it just says 'appropriate'.

 

 

Rang Cunard and the lady said she could not see it being a problem from other things she has been asked but advised me to ring back when a supervisor was available as they might know more.

[luckymal]

A cravat is a tie, it is just one form of a tie. There are multiple ways of tying a knot in a piece of fabric. For example Windsor, Half-Windsor, Four in a Hand and Pratt knot. Therefore Cunard's definition is ambiguous. I just find it incredibly harsh that somebody has been extremely polite and gracious, but have been told on more than one occasion, that the way they dress/clothes they wear are dreadful choices. This is despite the fact they have both attended many formal functions and their choice of dress has been seen to be highly appropriate by those around them.

 

They've booked a holiday to travel on QM2 and are extremely keen to be well presented on a formal night. I can say categorically that there is no way that someone wearing a smart dark suit or tuxedo, with a black formal cravat will be asked to change on a QM2 formal night.

 

I really hope that the husband of the good person who posted the initial message, choses to wear a cravat; I'm sure a huge number of people will comment on how splendid he and his good lady look. Cunard was founded 175 years ago, it wasn't formed to reflect Royal traditions and etiquette; It was a good, honest and most importantly safe shipping line, that over the years evolved a reputation for high standards in first class, it also carried many far from rich people to a better life in the New World.

 

So I think people need to get some sense of reality. Surely as a male, as there has been for female passengers on Cunard, there should be an allowance for a degree of evolution or flexibility to what defines a formal outfit in the 21st century. This has most definitely happened with the female dress over the last 50 years or so. The fact that the modifications, do not contradict with the "rule book", being a dark suit and black tie (black formal cravat), makes the discussion seem even more silly. It's a total myth if people think Samuel Cunard defined formal dress 175 years ago and since that very day everyone on board has been following his tradition to the letter.

 

I think what people should actually realise, is that politeness and respect are great British traditions and need enforcing; They are significantly more important than the exact definition of which type of black tie is appropriate for formal occasions or which specific knot is used . Let's not lose our sense of perspective of the great Cunard line. I'm passionate about Cunard and it's origins but subtle evolutions of formal wear certainly don't threaten what Cunard stands for. In fact people not feeling welcome or embraced, because people insist on quoting rules books at them, is the biggest threat that regular Ocean crossings by our great Ocean liner faces.

 

I don't mean this to be a criticism of some incredibly knowledgable and polite members of this forum, who have offered me valuable advice whenever I've asked. However I just don't think there should be a place for people criticising people's fashion choices and making derogatory comments.

 

 

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I would hope that anyone wearing a cravat would be turned away by a member of the Dining Room staff. Cunard state in their brochure, on a Formal Night Dinner jacket, tuxedo dark suit with a tie, once they allow standards to slip that will be the end of Cunard a cruise line that is loved and respected by many, and why people from all over the world travel by Cunard. The people who choose to ignore the rules show no respect for the other diners.:mad:

[Gazroberts80]

The point I will politely reinforce is that as they are wearing a tie, a tie being a piece of material that is knotted around the neck, with a dark suit, there will be absolutely no need for the dining room staff to turn anybody away. Can I assure the original poster that I have met some of the most wonderful people, from all walks of life on the ship. It's a wonderful place and is in no way as judgemental as this forum may have you believe.

 

People are respected for who they are and for making an effort to embrace all that is on offer. I have never thought of wearing a cravat tie before today but I know I could wear one, in a way that looked extremely formal and was extremely befitting of the occasion. As happens at Ascot, a very formal British occasion (which incidentally is the inspiration behind one of the balls).

 

We live in a world, where thankfully men and women are treated as equals. Why on earth should the specific type of tie be of significance, when huge amounts of flexibility are tolerated when it comes to female dress on formal nights. A dreadful business tie is certainly less in keeping with a ball, than a beautifully presented silk black cravat style tie, presented in the right way, with the right suit.

 

The dresses of many women on the ship are amazing, however sometimes I see women wearing dresses that certainly don't fit my interpretation of a cocktail dress. Would I approach a lady to inform her that her dress was in my opinion not a cocktail dress and that it was far to short. Would I expect the dining room staff to send her back to her stateroom to change? Of course I wouldn't dream of doing so, that would be rude and a very unpleasant thing to do. It's her interpretation, around the outline of a dress code and I accept its different to mine but I can see a genuine effort has been made.

 

We need to encourage the younger generations on board these fine ships, otherwise the crossings will reduce and eventually disappear. We need to keep what's great about Cunard but that does not mean the experience has to be totally frozen in time. I don't want it to be a museum, I want it to continue to have the unique dynamic it possess. I've already noticed that there was. a significant price premium last summer on Mediterranean voyages of the same length when compared with transatlantic and I am concerned that very soon QM2 will be pushed to these duties.

 

I along with many of my friends massively respect tradition and love to make a real effort for formal events. In fact we are at an age when we are often attending regular formal occasions and have much experience of appropriate dress for such occasions. I will always follow the suggested dress code out of politeness to others but that does not mean I can't show some individualism, through tie choice, shirt choice or jacket choice. I saw some beautiful navy blue velvet dinner jackets, with black trim, exquisitely finished this Christmas. Would it be in keeping with a formal night, of course it would but it would certainly not be everyone's interpretation. Obviously for the black and white ball, I would feel more in keeping wearing a black Dinner suit with white shirt and a black tie of some description. Likewise a 1920's style dress is quite a different interpretation, than a 21st century designers interpretation but both styles are befitting of formality, just interpretations from different eras. It's the same with male formal dress, but it's evolved to a lesser extent.

 

 

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Edited January 19, 2015 by Gazroberts80

[Velvetwater]

Well two official sources (the website and a representative) have said yes essentially so if we sail we will be bringing the cravats along and some ties.

 

Thanks for those who were understanding and supportive whether the advice was what I wanted to hear or not. :)

 

If anything else pops up I will post here but I will say this....in a lot of cultures and languages the cravat is still referred to as a tie.

[capnpugwash]

Well two official sources (the website and a representative) have said yes essentially so if we sail we will be bringing the cravats along and some ties.

 

Thanks for those who were understanding and supportive whether the advice was what I wanted to hear or not. :)

 

If anything else pops up I will post here but I will say this....in a lot of cultures and languages the cravat is still referred to as a tie.

 

Interesting that they call it a cravat then!

[Gazroberts80]

With out meaning to offend the Captain who I greatly respect, the Oxford English Dictionary, in reference to the word Cravat:

 

 

a. A neckcloth; (originally) a long, narrow piece of linen, muslin or other fine cloth, sometimes with lace at either end, worn around the neck and either tied under the chin in a knot or bow with long flowing ends, or secured with a ribbon (cf. cravat string n. at Compounds 2); (later) a neckerchief or broad necktie, usually of linen, cotton, or silk, sometimes fastened with a bow or pinned, and often worn over the top of a high collar.

 

 

 

The cravat is generally considered to have come into vogue in France in the 17th cent. in imitation of the linen scarf worn by Croatian mercenaries. Although primarily an item of men's clothing it was originally also worn by women. In modern use the term is usually applied either to a broad band of fabric (often colourful and highly patterned) worn around the outside of the collar, knotted or pinned in front, and typically forming part of a man's smart or formal outfit.

 

A second reference from the OED Dictionary website

 

 

SHARE THIS ENTRY

cravat

Line breaks: cra¦vat

Pronunciation: /krəˈvat /

Definition of cravat in English:

NOUN

 

1 A short, wide strip of fabric worn by men round the neck and tucked inside an open-necked shirt.

EXAMPLE SENTENCES

 

The bridegroom is able to hire his choice of morning suit or dinner suit, tuxedo, shirt and cravat or bow tie.

 

1.1 historical A tie.

EXAMPLE SENTENCES

 

 

 

It is clear that it can be seen as being a broad necktie and can be worn as part of a formal outfit, from their references.

 

 

 

 

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