Veendam Bermuda - St George - why tenders?

Can someone tell me where the Veendam anchors in St George - I do not understand why she does not dock there - thank you...

We had been on Celebrity Horizon & Zenith a few years back & both ships docked in St George!

Also - why not just dock in Front street hamilton if the tendering is such a problem????

This was thoroughly discussed when the decision to tender was made. If you want to read the entire discussion, then please do a search.

The quick answer is that the Veendam, at least post-reconstruction, cannot safely make the cut into St. Georges. The ship will tender from an outer anchorage, conditions permitting. The plans are that it will still go to St. Georges to let that community have it's shot at relieving passengers of their excess funds. ;)

This was thoroughly discussed when the decision to tender was made. If you want to read the entire discussion, then please do a search.

 

The quick answer is that the Veendam, at least post-reconstruction, cannot safely make the cut into St. Georges. The ship will tender from an outer anchorage, conditions permitting. The plans are that it will still go to St. Georges to let that community have it's shot at relieving passengers of their excess funds. ;)

ruth, welcome home ! hope europe was good to you ! many posted many times at many places re our inaugural adventure to bermuda april 25............if you think of something you did not see covered don't hesitate to get in touch directly and we will try to address [ you have fishbabe add at kathleenfisher@yahoo.com ] ..regards, don carlos

ruth, welcome home ! hope europe was good to you ! many posted many times at many places re our inaugural adventure to bermuda april 25............if you think of something you did not see covered don't hesitate to get in touch directly and we will try to address [ you have fishbabe add at kathleenfisher@yahoo.com ] ..regards, don carlos

Thank you. Yes, Europe was grand! Simply grand.

It's a week now, and I'm just getting back on eastern time, with a bit of energy. I haven't had a chance to look back at the threads, but am glad to know there are some re: the Veendam to Bermuda. I do want to read all about it. I'll get a chance over the next few days.

We heard from the Hotel Manager of the Veendam that when they ran simulations, the Veendam only made the cut in St. George's 6 out of 10 times. Not good odds.

The "overhang" and her "ducktail" made her A$$ too big. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit, aka tender

The "overhang" and her "ducktail" made her A$$ too big...

I can relate...

Got off the Veendam this morning. We didn't dock in St. George's. The captain explained that this was due to a Coast Guard rescue on the Veendam which took us off our course, causing us to be late into St. George's so they skipped it entirely and docked only on Front Street. We were all given the free bus/ferry vouchers so that we could get into St. George's so that we could be relieved of our excess funds, as Ruth puts it.

Pat

Can someone tell me where the Veendam anchors in St George - I do not understand why she does not dock there - thank you...

 

We had been on Celebrity Horizon & Zenith a few years back & both ships docked in St George!

 

Also - why not just dock in Front street hamilton if the tendering is such a problem????

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Just got back from the 5/16 sailing today. Lovely trip. As posted regarding earlier trips this year, once again, we did not anchor off St. George, but went directly to Hamilton. Was announced as a "a last minute" decision, but was handled very smoothly and in no way in a "last minute" fashion. Very convenient location, right on Front Street.

Do be aware there is one zig-zag up ramp that needs to be manuvered -- no problem for most, but a bit of a "push" for wheelchairs, etc.

Local travel on the island was very easy using the bus/ferry options (HAL did provide one day voucher, meant to encourage trips to St. George's). St. George is worth the trip, but it was not difficult to do from Hamilton. I for one much prefered this to the tender (or large ferry option, which was what had been planned, apparently). Would have been comfortable either way, but was in no way inconvenienced by going straight to Hamilton.

Enjoy your trip!:)

The "overhang" and her "ducktail" made her A$$ too big. If it doesn't fit, you must acquit, aka tender

Having spoken to many on the Island when we flew there in March, it's not that the "ducktail" doesn't fit, it creates too much displacement and creates a tidle surge. That is the reason it cannot dock in St. Georges.

Here's the linky to the Bermuda Sum newspaper where the Premier confirmed the Veendam's problem and why:

http://bermudasun.bm/main.asp?SectionID=24&SubSectionID=270&ArticleID=43923

Here's the linky to the original discussion on CC (25 pages, 494 posts):

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1105092

SBtS

Here's the linky to the Bermuda Sum newspaper where the Premier confirmed the Veendam's problem and why:

 

Its too bad that Veendam cannot dock in ST George - I'd rather 4 days in Hamilton then tendering.....Thanks for being so helpful Sail Bad, Love My Boxer, Voyager Dreamer, Kaliesgram, Two@Sea, Copper10-8 and Alexand Nessa.....

 

Full Moon & smooth seas to you!!!!

 

 

 

 

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Just got back from the 5/16 sailing today. Lovely trip. As posted regarding earlier trips this year, once again, we did not anchor off St. George, but went directly to Hamilton. Was announced as a "a last minute" decision, but was handled very smoothly and in no way in a "last minute" fashion. Very convenient location, right on Front Street.

 

Do be aware there is one zig-zag up ramp that needs to be manuvered -- no problem for most, but a bit of a "push" for wheelchairs, etc.

 

Local travel on the island was very easy using the bus/ferry options (HAL did provide one day voucher, meant to encourage trips to St. George's). St. George is worth the trip, but it was not difficult to do from Hamilton. I for one much prefered this to the tender (or large ferry option, which was what had been planned, apparently). Would have been comfortable either way, but was in no way inconvenienced by going straight to Hamilton.

 

Enjoy your trip!:)

Hi Cruisers: We're heading to Bermuda on 8/29, but on the NCL Dawn, docking in King's Wharf. We will ferry over to Hamilton (not sure how long by Ferry or bus or which is better or faster). Our question is: Can we take a ferry over to St.George while we are in Hamilton and use the 2 day pass we buy? Is it a long ferry ride. We need to judge time accordingly.

Thanks very much in advance for your replies.

Having spoken to many on the Island when we flew there in March, it's not that the "ducktail" doesn't fit, it creates too much displacement and creates a tidle surge. That is the reason it cannot dock in St. Georges.

That's a great fallacy. A ship cannot displace enough water to create a tidal surge unless it's in a pond. In an open harbor, the water goes in and out normally and a ship will not change the height of the tide.

UANDMEFOREVER wondered: ...ferry over to Hamilton (not sure how long by Ferry or bus or which is better or faster)....

The ferry to Hamilton from the Dockyard is faster than the bus for the same trip by about 40 minutes. The ferry ride is +/- 20 minutes.

And asked: ...Can we take a ferry over to St.George while we are in Hamilton and use the 2 day pass we buy?....

There are no direct ferries from Hamilton to SG. The ferry first stops at the Dockyard before going to SG. The ferry ride from Dockyard to SG is +/- 40 minutes. The ferry route for this trip is the Orange Route.

The transportation pass is good for both the bus & ferry.

SBtS

That's a great fallacy. A ship cannot displace enough water to create a tidal surge unless it's in a pond. In an open harbor, the water goes in and out normally and a ship will not change the height of the tide.

Well that is EXACTLY what happens!!!!! The VEENDAM is a very beamy ship, much more so than other vessels that have run though town cut. On the simulation, when the vessels transits Town Cut the water she displaces cannot flow past the ship without creating a suction or cushion effect along the banks of the cut and once he gets 'bounced' she is impossible to control.

Town Cut is not an 'open harbour' and does rather resemble a pond.... open at each end. The effect is the same!

The soloution is to widen Town Cut a minimum of 50 feet and take out the 'bend' in teh channel. Possible of course but it will cost big bucks.... $20 million at least.

Stephen

Stephen

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The soloution is to widen Town Cut a minimum of 50 feet and take out the 'bend' in teh channel. Possible of course but it will cost big bucks.... $20 million at least.

 

Stephen

 

Stephen

Planning on bringing a shovel and a pick axe in September, Capt.;) Wanna join?

Well that is EXACTLY what happens!!!!! The VEENDAM is a very beamy ship, much more so than other vessels that have run though town cut. On the simulation, when the vessels transits Town Cut the water she displaces cannot flow past the ship without creating a suction or cushion effect along the banks of the cut and once he gets 'bounced' she is impossible to control.

 

Town Cut is not an 'open harbour' and does rather resemble a pond.... open at each end. The effect is the same!

 

The soloution is to widen Town Cut a minimum of 50 feet and take out the 'bend' in teh channel. Possible of course but it will cost big bucks.... $20 million at least.

 

Stephen

 

Stephen

Can you show me documentation on this? I've been sailing for over 20 years and have never heard of a ship causing a tidal surge in a harbor. I'm looking at the charts of St. George's and while the cut is not that wide, the harbor is actually quite open with multiple passages other than just the cut. Water pushed from the ship will easily be displaced across the whole harbor/other passages. Of course if they are coming in at ebb, then there will be issues with fighting the current in a smaller pass but it's still not impossible to do and will not affect the tide at all. We regularly go into harbors with only one opening that is quite narrow (Port Jefferson on Long Island is one, old Edgartown Harbor on Martha's Vineyard is another (before the breech)) and even a very large cruise ship would not cause an issue with the tide.

Can you show me documentation on this? I've been sailing for over 20 years and have never heard of a ship causing a tidal surge in a harbor.

Well, back in 1982 and 1983 I was Queen's Harbour Master, Bermuda with the Department of Marine & Ports Services.

Can you show me documentation on this? I've been sailing for over 20 years and have never heard of a ship causing a tidal surge in a harbor. I'm looking at the charts of St. George's and while the cut is not that wide, the harbor is actually quite open with multiple passages other than just the cut. Water pushed from the ship will easily be displaced across the whole harbor/other passages. Of course if they are coming in at ebb, then there will be issues with fighting the current in a smaller pass but it's still not impossible to do and will not affect the tide at all. We regularly go into harbors with only one opening that is quite narrow (Port Jefferson on Long Island is one, old Edgartown Harbor on Martha's Vineyard is another (before the breech)) and even a very large cruise ship would not cause an issue with the tide.

think we might have an "oops, I'm sorry" coming up:D

hate to let you know Set Free but Stephen just happens to have been the Harbor Master for Bermuda:eek:

have a very, very, very strong feeling he actually knows what he spoke about, and more;)

Thank you for the wonderful answers and information! Ferry it will probably be! Then the next day or two, we'll ferry to SG on the OrangeFerry!

Thanks again! These board are great! Most people have good, honest and informative and CORRECT infomation.

Can you show me documentation on this? I've been sailing for over 20 years and have never heard of a ship causing a tidal surge in a harbor. I'm looking at the charts of St. George's and while the cut is not that wide, the harbor is actually quite open with multiple passages other than just the cut. Water pushed from the ship will easily be displaced across the whole harbor/other passages. Of course if they are coming in at ebb, then there will be issues with fighting the current in a smaller pass but it's still not impossible to do and will not affect the tide at all. We regularly go into harbors with only one opening that is quite narrow (Port Jefferson on Long Island is one, old Edgartown Harbor on Martha's Vineyard is another (before the breech)) and even a very large cruise ship would not cause an issue with the tide.

Have you sailed through Town Cut at all? If you had, you would know what TopSham and I are talking about. Two year's ago we sailed in on the NCL Dream, which at the time was the widest ship to have gone through Town Cut. Let me tell you, it was tough!

think we might have an "oops, I'm sorry" coming up:D

 

hate to let you know Set Free but Stephen just happens to have been the Harbor Master for Bermuda:eek:

 

have a very, very, very strong feeling he actually knows what he spoke about, and more;)

and he [ captain stephen card ] was on board as a pax with us on veendan season inaugural cruise to bermuda last month ......very nice and interesting fellow to say nothing of his talents as an marine artist .

Can you show me documentation on this? I've been sailing for over 20 years and have never heard of a ship causing a tidal surge in a harbor. I'm looking at the charts of St. George's and while the cut is not that wide, the harbor is actually quite open with multiple passages other than just the cut. Water pushed from the ship will easily be displaced across the whole harbor/other passages. Of course if they are coming in at ebb, then there will be issues with fighting the current in a smaller pass but it's still not impossible to do and will not affect the tide at all. We regularly go into harbors with only one opening that is quite narrow (Port Jefferson on Long Island is one, old Edgartown Harbor on Martha's Vineyard is another (before the breech)) and even a very large cruise ship would not cause an issue with the tide.

Well, let's see. It is called 'local knowledge'. I was Bermuda's Harbour Master for two years and I kind of have 'the knowledge'.

There is no 'tidal surge' caused by the ship in St Geo Harbour. I didn't say that. As the ship enter the Cut the surge is water that cannot be pushed ahead of the ship as she transits so it surges past the ship creating either a suction or cushion effect which can cause the ship to sheer from one side of the Cut to another. The numerous tank tests that were carried out by HAL and the Bermuda Government bore this out.

If you think that a ship cannot cause a surge in a harbour where there is seemingly open water all round then you simply need to make a cruiser to Bermuda and observe VEENDAM as she enters Dundonald Channel. Also as the ship passes through Two Rock Passage into Hamilton... the surge as the ships passes just these two locations is quite dramatic. You can watch the water drain away from the rocks as the ship passes.

Years ago we had problems with the old VOLENDAM coming onto St George through Town Cut. A much smaller ship than VEENDAM.... just 22,000 grt. On two occassions, just one week apark she sheered in the Cut. First time she scraped her docking bridge along the wall of the cut. Second time her propeller touched. She ended up in drydock for a week after that. From then on she could only transit with two tugs standing by. Evertually a large training wall was built to even up the pressures, but still not good enough for the current VEENDAM.

On top of this wind speed and direction comes into play. Any wind moving across the entrance greater than 15 knots and the ship cannot enter.

Stephen

Planning on bringing a shovel and a pick axe in September, Capt.;) Wanna join?

Nah John, we can simply contact some good Netherlands dredging firm like Geopotees to come and do the work. We can 'observe' progress from The White Horse. ;)

Stephen