***A warning about private tours in Egypt***

I realize I cannot start a thread about a specific tour operator, but thought it was imperative that I warn people about independent tour operators in Egypt. This is not specific to one tour company, but probably would apply to any independent tour operator in Egypt.

I just came back from a 12 night Eastern European cruise on the Legend of the Seas. While visiting Egypt a group of us had hired an independent tour operator who provided an itinerary we were interested in at a reasonable cost.

While the tour itself was delightful and the sights we visited incredible, I feel prompted to warn all NOT to go on an independent tour. Before I go into the details as to why, a little background about me: I have gone on many cruises and almost always do independently arranged tours. I have found them to be fun, informative, safe and many times much cheaper than the tours organized by the cruise ship.

Unfortunately Egypt is different in many ways. While I felt safe visiting the many sights, I could not help but feel that an independent tour is a disaster waiting to happen. Egypt has the highest incidence of road fatalities per miles driven in the world, and once you have been there you will know why. Traffic rules are completely ignored by drivers, road and traffic signs are non-existent, cars drive at high rates of speed, and cars routinely drive the wrong way in a one-way street. On highways among speeding cars, it is not unusual to see people slowly walking between traffic, forcing cars to slam their brakes. Stray animals are seen walking on the highways as well, and most traffic signals do not work.

In 2006 there were two serious accidents involving tourist buses in which a number of tourists were killed. Having driven on the roads in Egypt I know many more disasters are likely to follow.

The driver of our tour bus drove in a way typical of Egypt. Many times he was literaly just inches away from the car in front of us, while easily doing 60-70 miles per hour. Often he would honk his horn, impatiently urging cars to move over. Frequently he would just inch his way between two cars and force one to move over so we could pass.

I was surprised to see a tour operator engage in this type of driving behavior. I know many tour operators depend on the income of the tours to survive, and as such will take extra precautions to keep their passengers safe. I did not observe this in Egypt and felt compelled to write a warning on cruisecritic.

While an accident may happen with cruise sponsored tours as well, I strongly believe it is far less likely to happen. Also, if you are lucky and survive the crash, at least the ship will wait for your return.

Most of the time the independent tour operators are the same the cruise ships use. So I really don't see your point and its a myth that cruise ships always wait for you when its their tour...the don't always do. Yes if you are on an independent tour its your responsibility to get back on time but that is always true...btw the worst number of traffic accidents I have seen has been in Rome so I guess you shouldn't do this in Italy either...

ps if the bus driver did this I wouldn't tip them and let them know why!

Most of the time the independent tour operators are the same the cruise ships use. So I really don't see your point and its a myth that cruise ships always wait for you when its their tour...the don't always do. Yes if you are on an independent tour its your responsibility to get back on time but that is always true...btw the worst number of traffic accidents I have seen has been in Rome so I guess you shouldn't do this in Italy either...

 

ps if the bus driver did this I wouldn't tip them and let them know why!

I am not here to argue with you as to who has the most accidents (statistics are clear enough about that). I am here to try and warn people and then have them make their own decision.

You cannot possibly compare traffic in Rome with traffic in Egypt.

Night and day.

And tipping was the least of my worries.

I must say I agree with the OP. We normally do not take ship excursions however after much research and great advice from these boards we decided on the the RCI Pyramids and Nile excursion last summer. Very, very glad we did so. Some of the vehicles for independent tours looked like they had been in an accident or two and I would have been even more of a nervous wreck. The driving in, to, and from Cairo is chaotic at best. It is a long drive from Alexandria to Cairo and I would hazard a guess that the shock absorbers in some of the small vans, etc. are not in good condition. The bus tour came with a driver, guide, and armed guard and travelled in a convoy with the other tour buses.

Kathy

Wow, yeah, it is very surprising to hear a taxi driver really lays on his horn or drives fast - what a shocker!:rolleyes: I guess you haven't driven in a cab in NYC?;)

last points. most tour operators in Egypt as pointed out also work for the cruise line and are just as good as any you can get without the cruise line, while you can't name the tour operator here, you CAN name them in your review of the cruise...so you can put them there.

Also and I am not saying you did this, sometimes when you want the absolutely cheapest price, you pick an operator that skimps in order to do this so recommendations on tour operators is important. any decent guidebook like Frommers or Rick Steve's or Fodor's or Lonely Planet or Eyewitness Travel Guides, to name a few, will list reputably tour operators so stick with one of them....

I used two different non cruise operators in Egypt one recommended by the hotel we were staying in and one that came from a website...and was very pleased with both.....

and so the ships tours are better?

see for example

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=590864

What makes you think a driver of a "cruise tour bus" is going to be any safer than the driver of "private tours"? You are correct in your concerns as we felt the same way. Sitting in the front of our tour bus we saw what the driver had to deal with.

The company we went with for our private tour also had buses/drivers doing ship sponsored tours. Our guide stayed in contact with them. So our driver on some days is running private groups around and on other days its a ship group.

I realize I cannot start a thread about a specific tour operator, but thought it was imperative that I warn people about independent tour operators in Egypt. This is not specific to one tour company, but probably would apply to any independent tour operator in Egypt.

You are allowed to advise who you used in response to a request, so I will ask... who did you use? What did you base your decision on when choosing the company?

For our upcoming trip, I chose a tour guide from the recommendations on Tripadvisor where a list of popular guides is published based on reader feedback.

Recommendations: http://www.tripadvisor.com/Travel-g294201-c85398/Cairo:Egypt:Tourist.Guides.Recommendations..html

Forum discussion: http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g294201-i9404-k1426106-Recommended_Tour_guides_Tour_Agents_Drivers_by_TA_members-Cairo.html

We used Decastro.

Some of you seem really defensive about the private operators. I usually am too. And you are right, some ships use the same independent operators....but when a cruise line hires them they have to abide by strict rules. As independent operators not doing a cruise tour they do not have to.

I am not here to convince anyone to listen to me. I just felt I should warn people to be careful when doing an independent tour in Egypt. I didn't want to come to the board one day, read about an accident, and have to think :"Wow, I should have warned them".

and so the ships tours are better?

 

see for example

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=590864

That thread only gives examples of the quality of stops. You totally missed my point. I loved my tour in Egypt, and loved the stops. In fact, of all the ports, it is Egypt I loved the most. I would LOVE to go back there. I am not putting down the tour itself, just the safety of it because of traffic safety issues.

Even if a tour operator exercises the utmost care and follows all the traffic rules, it still leaves all the other Egyptian drivers on the road, most of whom do not follow the 'rules'. Not to mention the pedestrians, live stock, road hazzards such as stalled cars, etc.

Even the best of drivers get in crashes. In Egypt it is more likely to happen.......(please, if you do not believe me, research the statistics).

And as a PS: in Turkey we used a private tour operator as well: meander tours. I did not see the same issues there and would highly recommend doing a private tour there.

I think it would be fairer to title your post "A Warning about Drivers in Egypt" as I don't think the experience you had is limited to private tours! Having done both a ship-sponsored overnight tour and a private land tour, I feel qualified to comment.

Other than to and from the ship, I'm surprised that there would be much "speeding" because in general the traffic in and around Cairo is such that you are not able to get up to anything approaching a dangerous speed. Our local Egypt guide mentioned that traffic fatalities in Cairo are rare for such a large city for that reason. There are some fender benders, for sure.

Yes, traffic rules are ignored by drivers. Where there are 3 lanes they will make 6. My taxi driver to the airport (at 4am) did not turn his headlights on if there were any streetlights, to save gas (his rationale). Traffic lights are largely ignored.

To be fair, though, the bus accidents you mention have occurred in the Sinai Peninsula on a tourist route from Sharm el-Sheik to Cairo. The roads in that area are notoriously bad and curvy as well. It's not traveled by cruise ship passengers docking at Alex or Port Said.

That thread only gives examples of the quality of stops. You totally missed my point. I loved my tour in Egypt, and loved the stops. In fact, of all the ports, it is Egypt I loved the most. I would LOVE to go back there. I am not putting down the tour itself, just the safety of it because of traffic safety issues.

 

Even if a tour operator exercises the utmost care and follows all the traffic rules, it still leaves all the other Egyptian drivers on the road, most of whom do not follow the 'rules'. Not to mention the pedestrians, live stock, road hazzards such as stalled cars, etc.

 

Even the best of drivers get in crashes. In Egypt it is more likely to happen.......(please, if you do not believe me, research the statistics).

 

And as a PS: in Turkey we used a private tour operator as well: meander tours. I did not see the same issues there and would highly recommend doing a private tour there.

Your logic is impeccably flawed. If the roads are bad and the drivers are bad it doesn't matter whether you have the best driver in the world, as your point out even the best drivers get accidents. The cruise lines disclaim any responsibility for the shore excursions. If they exercise any supervision, they create a separate liability if the driver doesn't follow their rules. Castro has it ups and downs on this board, What you had was a terrible driver who I would bet also on certain days drives for the cruise line tours- he may be low on the list but on some days he will be needed. it would be better to avoid Castro at all if you don't want him....but then again these drivers are interchangeable among companies and may just had a bad day.

Well, if I were writing a comment about our driver on our private tour with Egyptian Express, I would probably write it this way:

"Traffic in Egypt is terrible!!! (Well, not as bad as in Morocco, or in Istanbul, or places in the Caribbean, or in Kenya, even in Greece or Rome -- but still terrible!) We were extremely fortunate to have an expert driver well used to the ways of the country. He kept right up with the fastest vehicles, in the caravan or on the highway, and moved us along to the sights we wanted to see. In the city he was adept at weaving in and out among the other cars, trucks, mopeds, water buffalo and other traffic, and really accomplished some amazing feats in getting us from one attraction to another without wasted time. Actually, at one point in traffic, a motor scooter sideswiped us. Words ensued, but the only damage was a ding on the back fender which did not really seem to bother the driver. I really think that the experienced tourist van or bus drivers are some of the best in the world, whatever country you are in. Many many countries do not drive the way we do in the US, and lots and lots of times we just sort of quit watching and keep our eyes on the guide."

Certainly, after our experiences on many cruises in many countries, we would not single out Egypt as a place to avoid because of the traffic! And I certainly do not understand why private tours would be any more problem than the ship's excursions.

We just returned from that same cruise. We used the ships tour in Egypt and saw the same driveing as you mention for the private tour. I would guess that you would be better supported in the event of an accident if you were on a ships tour though. We did see one accident and the two drivers were beating the heck out of each other. The tour guide said insurence is a problem here so they resolve it that way here.

I am sorry I cannot get my point across. I have tried though, and will leave it as such. :)

I LOVED Egypt, but hoped to make people aware of the terrible driving in Egypt and urge people to take the steps necessary to stay as safe as possible. Fatalities are NOT rare in Egypt and are in fact one of the highest in the world. If a guide told you otherwise, he was wrong.

I was born and raised in Europe and spent the first 21 years of my life in various countries across Europe and other continents. I have extensively traveled (always spending 3 months of every year in a different country), and as such am aware as to what country poses what risks. I have the safety of my family at heart at all times. As such I tend to choose those options that have the best chance of keeping my children safe. I realize not everyone has the same concerns as I do, but please be open minded and realize some of us indeed do care about perceived safety in various countries.

I will respect your opions, please honor me with the same respect. :)

My only intention was to forwarn people to take this into consideration when booking a tour, not to criticize a country I have come to love.

We were on the same cruise. We decided to pass on the roll call independent trip for the concerns listed above. We went with the ship's tour because we were worried about missing the ship, and wanted a guarantee of sorts that if something happened, the ship would wait or make arrangements to get us back on board.

We did enjoy our tour and felt we got a pretty good tour for our money and the time we were given in Egypt.

I am sorry I cannot get my point across. I have tried though, and will leave it as such. :)

 

I LOVED Egypt, but hoped to make people aware of the terrible driving in Egypt and urge people to take the steps necessary to stay as safe as possible. Fatalities are NOT rare in Egypt and are in fact one of the highest in the world. If a guide told you otherwise, he was wrong.

 

I believe the difference of opinion is not that driving is hazardous in Egypt (clearly it is more hazardous than in many other countries) but that private drivers are somehow worse.

And to clarify, I was referring to fatalities in Cairo. Which, unless you happen to be a pedestrian (!) are comparatively low, as traffic in the city averages about 10 km/hr.

We were on the same cruise. We decided to pass on the roll call independent trip for the concerns listed above. We went with the ship's tour because we were worried about missing the ship, and wanted a guarantee of sorts that if something happened, the ship would wait or make arrangements to get us back on board.

 

We did enjoy our tour and felt we got a pretty good tour for our money and the time we were given in Egypt.

We were on the same cruise and chose a ship's excursion for the same reasons.

However, I did want to thank the OP for posting and in doing so trying to help out her fellow traveler. Many tour operators in Egypt are financially reliant on ship's tours and therefore would be more careful in driving situations, etc... It is a valid point and something one must take into consideration when planning travel in certain foreign countries.

Thanks Lisichka! :)

We were on the same cruise and chose a ship's excursion for the same reasons.

 

However, I did want to thank the OP for posting and in doing so trying to help out her fellow traveler. Many tour operators in Egypt are financially reliant on ship's tours and therefore would be more careful in driving situations, etc... It is a valid point and something one must take into consideration when planning travel in certain foreign countries.

 

Thanks Lisichka! :)

Ditto!

Kathy

That thread only gives examples of the quality of stops. You totally missed my point. I loved my tour in Egypt, and loved the stops. In fact, of all the ports, it is Egypt I loved the most. I would LOVE to go back there. I am not putting down the tour itself, just the safety of it because of traffic safety issues.

 

Even if a tour operator exercises the utmost care and follows all the traffic rules, it still leaves all the other Egyptian drivers on the road, most of whom do not follow the 'rules'. Not to mention the pedestrians, live stock, road hazzards such as stalled cars, etc.

 

Even the best of drivers get in crashes. In Egypt it is more likely to happen.......(please, if you do not believe me, research the statistics).

 

And as a PS: in Turkey we used a private tour operator as well: meander tours. I did not see the same issues there and would highly recommend doing a private tour there.

I didn't miss your point. But I completely disagree with your point. If the roads of Egypt are more dangerous than the roads in other countries, then that applies to all who use the roads, private tours and ship's sponsored tours alike. The private tour operator we used last year in Egypt was exceptional and I wasn't any more concerned about crashing there than I would be concerned driving around my own city or countryside.

.................Stan

We were on a ship shorex to Rome and the bus driver text messaged while he was driving with his knee.

Several times throughout to and from Rome.

My mom and I were in the front right seat so I saw everything...

made sure I schmoozed (ok flirted, I was single then) to get his full name..and even cell phone number.

then I complained about him ~

to the shorex desk, corporate headquarters, and his company directly.

Hope they fired him!

So, THAT was a ship sponsored and my life was in jeopardy

on that more than any private driver I've hired.

Just saying...

My most "frightening" cab rides...Rome (FCO to city), Washington D.C. (restaurant to hotel) and the really scary one...Mazatlan (open-car "pulmonia" ride to anywhere). We will be using DeCastro for Egypt in September. Hopefully, they will have seat belts because we plan to wear them. Take care everyone.

I am sorry I cannot get my point across. I have tried though, and will leave it as such. :)

 

I LOVED Egypt, but hoped to make people aware of the terrible driving in Egypt and urge people to take the steps necessary to stay as safe as possible. Fatalities are NOT rare in Egypt and are in fact one of the highest in the world. If a guide told you otherwise, he was wrong.

 

....

 

I will respect your opions, please honor me with the same respect. :)

 

My only intention was to forwarn people to take this into consideration when booking a tour, not to criticize a country I have come to love.

Lisichka -- first of all, I did not see a single flame on this thread. IMHO everyone has posted calm, polite opinions. Many of them happen to disagree with yours but that does not mean they are disrespecful. Discussion of various experiences and differing opinions is what this board is all about.

Secondly -- posts can only be read as they are written, and the OP has little control over the way the discussion goes. When you start out your post with

"******* Warning about private tours in Egypt ******"

then reasonably enough people believe that your topic is private tours. Let me politely suggest that putting up a topic of "Terrible traffic in Egypt", leaving out the *****warning***** part, might have produced an even more reasonable discussion, primarily on the topic of traffic which you say is your main point.

Learning the nuances of this board can be difficult. There are undeniable some flamers around. But in this case I think this has been a very valuable and reasonable discussion, even if not entirely on the topic you thought it should be.

I think if the OP had titled this thread "Warning about traffic", your point would have been made clearer. Yes, the traffic in Cairo is the worst! However, private tours offer an excellent, reasonably priced alternative to being on a bus with 50 other people. The key is for each traveler to do their homework and choose an independant operator with a good record-like Nile Blue.