Concordia News: Please Post Here

[sidari]

"If we meet him in public, we should point our finger at him and call him killer and then turn our back on him like a pariah offering him no solace or succor. That is how society can prevent reoccurences"

 

John ... The Victorians have died out although sadly it seems not in your world!

 

"Schittino killed 32 people" you mean like the Orange haired wierdo a week or so ago? or like the recent one at a mosque?

 

CT ... As cruise ships do not carry out sailbys for holidaymakers on an island i fail to see why you mentioned it? or maybe it was a slip of the keyboard.

 

At a guess and knowing how ordinary doors work when water pressure is applied to them it may be that the Engineer possibly meant that the watertight doors stay in place but with pressure applied there is a possibility of leakage around the seal which does not mean they will not do their job. Watertight doors on new ships slide along a runner from Left to Right or vice versa in order to close off the unit of exit width (Doorway opening) for water pressure to open one of the closed doors would be at best improbable.

 

When asked the question regarding watertight doors on a visit to the Bridge the Captain of the Ruby Princess told us that they remain closed while the ship is at sea.

Edited August 7, 2012 by sidari

[Tonka's Skipper]

On the Titanic the bulkheads didn't go high enough...doors worked fine though.

 

It's as if the designers do the bare minimum to prevent a problem arising rather than sit at the drawingboard and make sure it never happens again.

 

The thing in the way is the $$$$$...all these safety alterations cost money and if the owners paid the $$$$$, it would mean less ships built cos they would have a higher unit cost.

 

The maritime architects (Joe bloody Farcus) spent more money on kitch & neon than safety, those huge atriums and glass roof thingies do precious little to keep you alive in the event of a capsize or sinking...as long as it looks pretty, people will forget that they are on a ship that will sink if holed....maybe the architects will get their priorities right one day...we can but hope...

 

You are absolutely right...it is truly laughable...or at least it would be had it not cos so many lives over the years.

 

 

 

As for the doors being left open on purpose....I am so pleased that you have seen it too....cos it does make you wonder what the hell is going on...why have the damn doors if no-one is going to use them?

 

 

You are right about the height of the watertight blkds, they only went to E deck (I think), yet at that day and age...that was very new and a safety improvement.

 

AKK

[CostaSmurfette]

"If we meet him in public, we should point our finger at him and call him killer and then turn our back on him like a pariah offering him no solace or succor. That is how society can prevent reoccurences"

 

John ... The Victorians have died out although sadly it seems not in your world!

 

CT ... As cruise ships do not carry out sailbys for holidaymakers on an island i fail to see why you mentioned it? or maybe it was a slip of the keyboard.

 

At a guess and knowing how ordinary doors work when water pressure is applied to them it may be that the Engineer possibly meant that the watertight doors stay in place but with pressure applied there is a possibility of leakage around the seal which does not mean they will not do their job. Watertight doors on new ships slide along a runner from Left to Right or vice versa in order to close off the unit of exit width (Doorway opening) for water pressure to open one of the closed doors would be at best improbable.

 

When asked the question regarding watertight doors on a visit to the Bridge the Captain of the Ruby Princess told us that they remain closed while the ship is at sea.

 

The captain will tell you the doors are closed when at sea...but its a rare event that they actually are closed 24/7...that goes for all shipping, not just cruise ships.

 

The Titanic doors dropped down, they held by virtue of their own weight and the ratchet back up...they were basic electrical operation but that ratchet system held them in place and sealed.

 

Modern doors have no such weight bearing, as you say, they go side to side and if they relax for any reason they will drop open...only a few millimeters but enough to weaken the seal, thus rendering them effectively useless in the event of high speed/high volume water ingress as seen aboard Concordia...the water will open them fully just by pure water pressure alone.

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

 

Finally...the speedboat ride...well once again its the paparazzi problem. Just as with Princess Diana & Dodi Fayed, those damned tabloids have their cameramen pretending to be tourists loitering around, nosing their way into business that does not need to be nosing into...like pigs at a trough, waiting to snap that elusive picture..."oh look he is on the toilet...lets see what colour loo roll he uses". ;)

 

Respectfully, if Dodi or Dianna had, prior to the chase in which their lives ended, been driving a car in which 32 people had perished or had Schettino been formerly married to an heir to the British throne and been driving with the future Mrs. Schettino in a Paris tunnel, I would agree with you that these two situations had something in common. But, as it is, the press has totally different interests in these situations and the fact that Mr. Schettino does not have any awareness of how his behavior might be perceived by the families of the lost souls is telling. This is in NO WISE a paparazzi problem, but a common sense problem.

[CostaSmurfette]

You are right about the height of the watertight blkds' date=' they only went to E deck (I think), yet at that day and age...that was very new and a safety improvement.

 

AKK[/quote']

 

Back then it was a slip of the tongue to a reporter that gave Titanic the "unsinkable" tag...and that came back to haunt them all, especially Ismay after it was discovered that he dressed as a woman and headed for the first lifeboat that he could find.

 

Titanic gave birth to SOLAS....and although it has been updated alot, and recently meant that many of the older ladies have been turned to razor blades, there will always be room for further improvement...and again Concordia could well cause more stringent design standards to be introduced. No bad thing unless you are the buyer of a cruise ship and you want to spend as little as possible for the vessel.

 

Its all economics at the end of the day....just how much worth is there in 32 lives lost against a ship running full of fare paying people...unfortunately, its a no contest thing...

[Ratt]

Schittino killed 32 people. He is primarily responsible (not soley respsonsible) for their deaths. Anyone who denies that is absolutely bonkers. Just listen to yourself. You equate one captain with another as if the actions are all that matter and the results shouldn't affect the outcome. I'm telling you that you know nothing about the law. Your are arguing a theory that is contrary to the law in every western nation.

 

If Schittino had not ordered the ship close to shore no one would have died. It's the deaths that make it homicide. You seem to believe that the same actions should be judged the same even if they have different consquences.

 

You shouldn't give legal opinions until you go to law school. The first thing they teach you is the general rule only applies when specific facts are present. Delete one fact or add another, the rule changes.

 

You guys are demonstrating how western society has destroyed the concept of responsiblity for your own actions. If you cause the deaths of 32 other people gthrough negligence or reckless conduct you will go to prison. If it only causes property damage you may get a fine or a warning.

 

So what is considered reckless conduct? Who gets to decide what is reckless conduct?

 

I'm sure that the attorneys representing passengers and crew are going to say that every party involved acted in a reckless manor, the attorneys for the captain and other officers are going to say that they didn't not act in a reckless manor and or will say that Costa's management acted in a reckless manor by ordering the sail by and of course Costa is going to say that the Captain acted in a reckless manor and did not following company policies and procedures. In the end someone is going to have to make a judgement call on what is reckless and what is not.

[Uniall]

"If we meet him in public, we should point our finger at him and call him killer and then turn our back on him like a pariah offering him no solace or succor. That is how society can prevent reoccurences"

 

John ... The Victorians have died out although sadly it seems not in your world!

 

"Schittino killed 32 people" you mean like the Orange haired wierdo a week or so ago? or like the recent one at a mosque? .........

 

 

There was no killing at a mosque. You must be referring to the Siek Temple. Sieks are not Muslims. In fact, they are persecuted in many Muslim countries.

 

As to your general comment, Premeditated Murder demands a higher degree of punishment than Reckless Homicide or Negligent Homicide. So, try to restrain yourself from mixing legal apples and oranges.

 

Actually, you're smart enough to know the difference but use such fallcious and specious arguments to appeal to others who might just skim your writting.

 

By the by, it wasn't just the Victorian era society that wsere hostile to bad people. It's still done today but not as often as it should. OJ was publically reviled, Casey Anthony lives in seclusion for the same reason.

 

Personally, I think we should expand the list of crimes beyond "sexual" crimes for convicted who are required to register their residence for public notice. (actually that's a joke, I think LOL)

Edited August 7, 2012 by Uniall

[TheBestIsYetToCome]

I would be more concerned if he wasn't seen out and about tbh.

 

I would imagine that the individual who took him out in the boat did it with the best intentions in mind...to get him outside after 6 months of not mixing with anyone, he does still have friends inside and outside the industry and they will have been concerned about his mental state and thought a trip out in the sunshine would do him some good.....misguided, perhaps but I can understand how a friend would think he was helping in some way...and unless that friend arranged for the paparazzi to be there, neither of them would have known that the parasite would be waiting to get that prime photo.

 

 

It's not his friend's fault either. He needs to politely decline frolicking in the graveyard of the souls who entrusted their lives to him, no matter how much good it might do him.

 

For Heavens sake, we know the man has mad self-preservation skills, how could he not realize how thoughtless and careless this has made him look?

[CostaSmurfette]

The reports I read say that the QM !1 also had a fire in the electrical system' date=' which is similar to the dream class, (Concordia, splendor, etc), but the reports say the actions of a well trained crew contained the fire and changes were made to the system.

 

I also read parts of the USCG investigation (not Captain of the port) which had a lot of issues with the Splendor fire including noting that the changes made to the QMII were not added to the Splendor and would have reduced the fire damage.

 

CS as you can guess I am not a big fan of Carnival Corporation!. LOL

 

AKK[/quote']

 

QM2 has a proven design flaw. The UK authorities have pretty much lost it with Cunard/Carnival and a damning report was issued confirming a design flaw...essentially the system just isn't hefty enough to handle what is being asked of it. Her last world cruise, she broke down several times...adrift in the Indian Ocean, without any power whatsoever....and we can't blame Fincantieri either since she was built at St Nazaire.

 

I have to agree with you about Carnival Corp, i wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them...they look after themselves a little too smuggly.

 

If you speak to the crews aboard the Costa ships, especially those who have been with the firm since before CCL took them over, they all wish that the firm could return to being a small ship operator again...send the cookie cutter ships back to Miami and keep the older ships that have the most repeat cruisers and the most affection from the crew.

 

Bigger is not always better...whether it be a company or a company's ship...

[DocF]

Let us get this right. Joe Farcus is an interior designer. He has absolutely nothing to do the engineering of any ship. He decorates them. The design of the hull and superstructure is, in this case, mainly from the design department at the yard.

 

The watertight doors on ships are installed on all decks below the "watertight" deck, which is the main deck. On a cruise ship, the main deck has large openings for the stairways and is not at all watertight. The theory is that if two adjacent compartments are open to the sea, the ship will not list enough to top the main deck.

 

If more than two compartments are open on one side, then all bets are off. Unless we force naval architects to build cruise ships with the compartmentalization of the battleship Bismarck, it will never be possible to come close to guaranteeing that a cruise ship will float after being seriously holed.

 

And let us not forget that the Bismarck was sunk despite the ultimate in watertight compartmentalization.

[cruiserfanfromct]

CT ... As cruise ships do not carry out sailbys for holidaymakers on an island i fail to see why you mentioned it? or maybe it was a slip of the keyboard.

... No, Sid, wasn't me -- did not mention any holidaymakers :eek: -- Freudian slip? or perhaps another poster?

[DocF]

Tonka, regarding the Carnival Splendor fire. It is very difficult to plan for a crankcase explosion in a prime mover. That is, indeed, what happened. The extent of the electrical damage should not have happened, but the cause of the fire is not something that can be easily solved. I guess we could go to gas turbines, but they are so expensive to operate (and even more unreliable than diesel electric propulsion) or we could revert to steam power. Oops! It seems to me that the Norway almost sank account boiler explosion.

[CostaSmurfette]

Let us get this right. Joe Farcus is an interior designer. He has absolutely nothing to do the engineering of any ship. He decorates them. The design of the hull and superstructure is, in this case, mainly from the design department at the yard.

 

The watertight doors on ships are installed on all decks below the "watertight" deck, which is the main deck. On a cruise ship, the main deck has large openings for the stairways and is not at all watertight. The theory is that if two adjacent compartments are open to the sea, the ship will not list enough to top the main deck.

 

If more than two compartments are open on one side, then all bets are off. Unless we force naval architects to build cruise ships with the compartmentalization of the battleship Bismarck, it will never be possible to come close to guaranteeing that a cruise ship will float after being seriously holed.

 

And let us not forget that the Bismarck was sunk despite the ultimate in watertight compartmentalization.

 

Would it be such a bad thing to have better compartmentalisation on ships...and lets throw in a full double bottom too (as per oil tankers built after Exxon Valdez)...it costs money to do it but it would potentially save lives...

 

The stumbling block is the likes of Arison & Co who prefer to pay for basketball players than do everything in their power to keep their fare paying guests alive in the rare event of a fatal accident occurring with one of their ships....

 

The owners want smart looking ships for rock bottom money....poor choice of wording but there you go...

[CostaSmurfette]

Tonka, regarding the Carnival Splendor fire. It is very difficult to plan for a crankcase explosion in a prime mover. That is, indeed, what happened. The extent of the electrical damage should not have happened, but the cause of the fire is not something that can be easily solved. I guess we could go to gas turbines, but they are so expensive to operate (and even more unreliable than diesel electric propulsion) or we could revert to steam power. Oops! It seems to me that the Norway almost sank account boiler explosion.

 

Norway's explosion was down almost entirely to poor maintenance practices...and some human error thrown in too, namely they hadn't got a clue how to care for her boilers and used incorrect methods and materials to make repairs.

 

Had NCL got Independence and Big U going as was the plan, chances are that all three would have met the same ending...and taken out even more lives that Norway did.

[sidari]

"adrift in the Indian Ocean, without any power whatsoever"

 

CS .... I think you misunderstood the above because Cunard claimed it was due to Routine Maintenence .... :eek:

 

By full Double bottom i take that to mean double hulled upto the waterline ?

Edited August 7, 2012 by sidari

[CostaSmurfette]

It's ironic really...France/Norway came from the same yard as QM2...both have had explosions.

 

France/Norway will almost certainly have lasted longer than QM2 will though, cos back then they knew how to build ships properly...France/Norway's demise was brought about by not following the instruction book that came with her....not through design flaw as per QM2.

[sidari]

Just today, another lawsuit was filed to the tune of $400 MILLION dollars by the family of the violinist on board.

 

I wonder where the Lawyers are from ?

 

CT ... It was the comment you made about an Island devoid of Tourists.

Edited August 7, 2012 by sidari

[CostaSmurfette]

"adrift in the Indian Ocean, without any power whatsoever"

 

CS .... I think you misunderstood the above because Cunard claimed it was due to Routine Maintenence .... :eek:

 

By full Double bottom i take that to mean double hulled upto the waterline ?

 

Routine maintenance my aft....

 

You have to hand it to them, they have come up with some ripe old excuses for that overweight tub of lard.

 

Exxon Valdez had a single hull with double plates on the keel only. Ships of her era are still being phased out and replaced with double plating to the waterline or in some cases just above the waterline for tankers operating in sub zero regions.

 

Adding the double plating to the waterline on Concordia may not have saved her but it would have given more time for evacuation on a level playing field. The double bottom is no guarantee that a hull will not breach, that is largely dependent on what hits it, the speed of the vessel(s) in the case of ship to rock or ship to ship collisions and other issues such as weather, sea state etc. But having the full double plating does lessen the chances of a breach, which therefore makes it a viable and workable alternative design. Potentially it can...and has...saved lives and prevented environmental damage from spillages of pollutants. A recent case of how well a double bottom can do the job can be seen here, a tanker exploded in Malaysia, lives were lost sadly but the ship although very severely damaged stayed afloat...

 

http://www.seatrade-asia.com/news-headlines/authorities-experts-board-fire-ravaged-misc-tanker.html

[sidari]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2184830/Toddler-killed-critical-Leicester-caught-car-smash-pushchairs.html

 

Should these 2 people be under House Arrest? Publicly Flogged or locked up? after all they have have Killed 2 Children!

 

 

CS ... The ships are not Double plated but Double Hulled upto the waterline which mean if just the outer skin is breached there is maybe a 2 or 3 metre gap to the Inner hull plating, not sure of the exact distance between the plates.

Edited August 7, 2012 by sidari

[Uniall]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2184830/Toddler-killed-critical-Leicester-caught-car-smash-pushchairs.html

 

Should these 2 people be under House Arrest? Publicly Flogged or locked up? after all they have have Killed 2 Children!................

 

.

 

If the cars were drag racing or traveling at a high rate of speed sufficient to be called reckless driving, some US jurisdictions would consider it

Reckless Homicide. But most jusrisdictions have specialized laws for autos and would reduce the necessary level of conduct from recklessness to gross negligence and convict under a charge of vehicular homicide

Edited August 7, 2012 by Uniall

[stella_mare]

Hello. First post on this forum. I've followed this story for the past few months along with the interesting discussion here.

 

Just a few thoughts based on many questions raised:

 

Maybe this was already posted, but here is a video showing a recreation of the status of the watertight doors based on the VDR data... and a brief article that accompanied it (in English through Google translator). This looks like it supports the somewhat vague information provided to investigators by crew who stated that this or that door had been requested to be left open to aid the work going on in a given department. There seems to have been an understanding of an internal procedure that made it okay for certain, identified doors to remain open during navigation, however, the validity of that was questioned, and some insist that they never allowed any doors open on their watch.

 

Whether an officer on watch leading up to the time of impact followed an "All Doors Closed" or "A Few Can Stay Open" protocol, it must have been the latter. Nearly the first command and check after impact was to make sure all the watertight doors were shut.

 

Smurfette - I agree with many of your points. But did you say that Schettino was NOT on deck prior to the blackout? I thought he arrived on the bridge after his dinner BEFORE the impact/blackout as they were nearing Gigli. He took over the command and ordered manual navigation to make the salute. The route had been planned before they left Cittivechia. (I know nothing about cruise operations, but just like an aircraft flight, aren't they required to "register their intended route or 'flight plan'" with some body before they depart? And if so -- and they did -- why wouldn't someone question such a close approach? Because even if they deviated from the original plan and went in much closer, it had always been too close for comfort from the get go, IMO.) When they took the rock, the blackout occurred on impact or very shortly thereafter. Schettino remained on the bridge through the crisis prior to abandoning ship.

 

Cartographer mentioned both charts he used showed La Scole and the water depths/shallows around it.

[sidari]

Stella ... Welcome to the thread and thanks for the link re the doors, doors number 12 and 13 were open for quite some time prior to the collision with others it would appear being opened and closed as people passed through.

 

So the graphic goes to prove that for the Majority of the sea time the doors were closed apart from 12 and 13, it will be interesting to see where those two doors are in relation to the opening in the Hull and the flooding that took place.

 

What is not known is the state of the doors after the collision.

Edited August 8, 2012 by sidari

[Uniall]

Stella ... Welcome to the thread and thanks for the link re the doors, doors number 12 and 13 were open for quite some time prior to the collision with others it would appear being opened and closed as people passed through.

 

So the graphic goes to prove that for the Majority of the sea time the doors were closed apart from 12 and 13, it will be interesting to see where those two doors are in relation to the opening in the Hull and the flooding that took place.

 

What is not known is the state of the doors after the collision.

 

Sidari

 

If one were prone to be a conspiracy theorist, they might suspect that "Costa Smurfette" and "Stella_Mare" are either your alter egos or were recruited by you to register with CruiseCritic.com and become members of your Captain Schittino Fan Club. :eek:

 

It's strange that they became new members with the sole purpose of posting on this thread. In the real world, coincidences do happen but two in the same day pushes reality a bit much. :rolleyes:

 

I wonder if any or all of you work at 5 Gainsford St., SE 1, London, UK ? :D

 

 

 

Click On Photo To Enlarge

[Vampire Parrot]

From the UK MCA (Marine and Coastguard Agency) website:

 

Operation of watertight doors

6. The ship's watertight doors should be operated (opened and closed) as follows -

 

1. in potentially hazardous situations every watertight door must be closed except when a person is passing through it;
   
2. in normal conditions -
   
   • a Type A door may be kept open;
     
   • a Type B door must be closed. It may be open but only whilst someone is working in the compartment adjacent to it;
     
   • a Type C door must be closed. It may be opened but only for sufficient time to permit someone to pass through it.
     

 

 

Other maritime agencies have similar regulations.

 

 

Some ships have other watertight doors that must remain closed at all times once at sea.

 

 

I do not know the Type of the doors that were kept open on Concordia before she ran aground.

 

VP

[Uniall]

From the UK MCA (Marine and Coastguard Agency) website:

 

Operation of watertight doors

6. The ship's watertight doors should be operated (opened and closed) as follows -

 

1. in potentially hazardous situations every watertight door must be closed except when a person is passing through it;
   
2. in normal conditions -
   
   • a Type A door may be kept open;
     
   • a Type B door must be closed. It may be open but only whilst someone is working in the compartment adjacent to it;
     
   • a Type C door must be closed. It may be opened but only for sufficient time to permit someone to pass through it.
     

 

Other maritime agencies have similar regulations.

 

 

Some ships have other watertight doors that must remain closed at all times once at sea.

 

 

I do not know the Type of the doors that were kept open on Concordia before she ran aground.

 

VP

 

Corcordia's water tight doors were Type "S" (for Schittino) :p