Should Cruise Lines Boycott Russian Ports of Call?

[ONT-CA]

Interesting that it would have been one of ours, Oscar Wilde who coined

 

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit...

[shepp]

Interesting that it would have been one of ours, Oscar Wilde who coined

 

Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit...

 

I notice you didn't answer me, though. Since pro-gay people are being denied visas, since openly gay foreigners are being thrown in jail, next time you disembark in St. Petersburg, in what way would you propose making matters better?

 

"The joyful science of occupying squares

The will to everyone’s power, without damn leaders

Direct action – the future of mankind!

LGBT, feminists, defend the nation!"

- Pussy Riot

[jamessemaj]

I have not seen of anybody thrown in jail. I have a straight friend in Russia, and couldn't imagine dismissing Russian relatives. I will visit Russia without reservation. I doubt the claims of support for the homophobic law in Russia, but I have no doubt about the claims of homophobia in the Caribbean.

 

Shep, this is old news. We don't agree.

[IslandExplorer]

ONT-CA, I can understand a gay man not wishing to be political, but I nearly spit out my coffee when you used the word "Russophobia".

 

I don't think you're following this story closely yet. I urge you to watch this video (ESPN's Keith Olbermann on Russia's participation in the Olympics):

 

 

Or perhaps you haven't really thought through what the implications of this are. Your comment makes no sense. Gay people cannot travel in Russia because doing anything publicly gay in Russia now will get you arrested. How could you possibly "educate" the Russians when you might be arrested for doing anything overtly gay? (eg wearing a gay T-shirt; holding hands with your partner; etc.) You do understand that you will not be able to show affection to your partner in public in Russia now, or even discuss homosexuality with Russians.

 

Perhaps there's something about this issue that you're not sharing with us. I'm thinking that you're "old school", in the sense that you prefer gay people not to be overtly gay in public and also not to express political views in public.

 

Or perhaps you feel that in the balance of rights and freedoms, gay rights have low priority for you.

[ONT-CA]

I notice you didn't answer me, though. Since pro-gay people are being denied visas, since openly gay foreigners are being thrown in jail, next time you disembark in St. Petersburg, in what way would you propose making matters better?

 

I would petition the Imperial Court in St. Petersburg for the restitution of and the return to you and your family the titles you were denied almost 100 years ago and if, hopefully available, the return of the tiara the symbol of the Imperial Court with which you were associated. Now how's that for sarcasm?

[IslandExplorer]

I have not seen of anybody thrown in jail. I have a straight friend in Russia, and couldn't imagine dismissing Russian relatives. I will visit Russia without reservation. I doubt the claims of support for the homophobic law in Russia, but I have no doubt about the claims of homophobia in the Caribbean.

 

Shep, this is old news. We don't agree.

 

 

Article in The Guardian, 1 Sep 2013: "Russian anti-gay law prompts rise in homophobic violence"

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/01/russia-rise-homophobic-violence

 

"The 20 most shocking anti-gay news stories from Russia so far"

 

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/08/the-20-most-shocking-anti-gay-news-stories-from-russia-so-far/

[ONT-CA]

[quote name=IslandExplorer;...Or perhaps you haven't really thought through what the implications of this are. Your comment makes no sense. Gay people cannot travel in Russia because doing anything publicly gay in Russia now will get you arrested. How could you possibly "educate" the Russians when you might be arrested for doing anything overtly gay? (eg wearing a gay T-shirt; holding hands with your partner; etc.) You do understand that you will not be able to show affection to your partner in public in Russia now' date=' or even discuss homosexuality with Russians.

.[/quote]

 

May I ask when was the last time you travel to or through Russia? Your comments reflect the hysteria I am speaking of. But then our press never ever lies....

[IslandExplorer]

I have not seen of anybody thrown in jail. I have a straight friend in Russia, and couldn't imagine dismissing Russian relatives. I will visit Russia without reservation. I doubt the claims of support for the homophobic law in Russia, but I have no doubt about the claims of homophobia in the Caribbean.

 

Shep, this is old news. We don't agree.

 

Story today on the BBC:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24170137

 

"And in an opening speech devoted to Russian values, he castigated the West for losing touch with its Christian roots when it came to gender questions.

 

Mr Putin said that "one-gender families" and exaggerated political correctness were leading countries into degradation and a deepening moral crisis.

 

One Austrian professor challenged him on this and asked for a guarantee that minority values would be respected in Russia and not subject to harassment.

 

Mr Putin denied there were any laws in Russia to punish sexual minorities for their orientation. The Russian law which had caused so much controversy was, he said, simply to stop "propaganda" among minors.

But the Russian leader did not try to hide his disdain for sexual minorities. Europeans, he continued, were suffering from a falling birth rate and could be in danger of dying out if they did not do something about it.

 

"You can either have more children to increase your population," said Mr Putin in typical blunt fashion, "or have more migrants, but you don't like them either. It's your choice."

 

He even returned to the subject to make a joke of what he perceived as Western Europe's distorted attitude to gender issues. Recalling his friendship with former Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, he noted that Mr Berlusconi was now on trial for living with women.

 

"But if he'd been living with men, as a homosexual, no-one would have dared lay a finger on him," Mr Putin said.

 

The Russians in the auditorium erupted into roars of laughter. On the panel next to a grinning Mr Putin, his European guests looked bemused and uncomfortable.

 

The Russian leader did not look in the least bit put out at this clash of cultural sensitivities. Possibly he even did it deliberately.

 

It serves his purpose, reinforcing his earlier argument that Russia's place in the world is unique, with its own norms and values, and any attempt to force it to conform to other people's view of what is right and proper would be resisted."

[IslandExplorer]

May I ask when was the last time you travel to or through Russia? Your comments reflect the hysteria I am speaking of. But then our press never ever lies....

 

Are you not following this story at all??

 

Do you suggest that gay people should go to Russia and risk imprisonment for being themselves??

 

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that you would ever do this.

 

More likely: If you ever go to there again on a cruise, you'll probably take an excursion and never speak to any Russians.

[IslandExplorer]

But then our press never ever lies....

 

I think this revealing comment indicates what is really motivating you when it comes to this story.

[ONT-CA]

Are you not following this story at all??

Do you suggest that gay people should go to Russia and risk imprisonment for being themselves??

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that you would ever do this.

More likely: If you ever go to there again on a cruise, you'll probably take an excursion and never speak to any Russians.

 

 

Welcome IslandExplorer to COLD WAR ll. Enjoy the ride.

 

BTW: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_violence_against_LGBT_people_in_the_United_States

Edited September 22, 2013 by ONT-CA

[IslandExplorer]

I'm sorry, but you're not just looking away, you're in a state of denial.

 

Putin has decided to victimize gays in his march to dictatorship, and that's OK with you.

[Blazerboy]

Would love to visit St. Petersburg, but won't be going anytime soon. Nor will I be going to Jamaica.

 

As for issues in this country, I will continue my activism and support of the political process - we have made significant progress in the past 30 years since I came out (not saying that my coming out was such an impactful event...;))

 

If I got all my news from Fox, or even CNN, I'd buy the prejudice-of-the-press argument. But given that news comes from European, Asian, US, Canadian, Middle East and other sources, I think we do have a pretty clear picture of the intent of Putin.

 

Andrew

[IslandExplorer]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/11/russia-gay-law-tourists-_n_3581217.html

 

Travel site Skift reports that the new law, signed into law by Russian President Vladimir Putin on June 30, contains a provision that allows the government to arrest and detain gay (or "pro-gay") foreigners for up to 14 days before they would then be expelled from Russia.

 

As far as what is considered "pro-gay," the laws specifics are somewhat vague, but Canadian site Travel and Escape suggests "gay-affirmative" speech, displaying a rainbow flag and same-sex partners holding hands are among the prohibited actions.

[IslandExplorer]

The Cold War is ancient history. Warsaw Pact nations are now part of NATO. Europe is filled with Polish and other Eastern European workers. Russians flock to Mediterranean resorts.

 

I think the problem for people like ONT-CA is that American politics has become so polarized that people don't know what to believe anymore. It doesn't help that television channels like Fox turn every little thing into a media circus.

 

But this is a genuine anti-gay development not dependent on US politics or television. It's not about us v. them. it's about ensuring Russian leaders learning which way the wind is blowing. And about training large Western corporations and governments to understand that gay rights are not a trivial thing.

 

The Russians still look up to the west. They buy property here. They send their children to schools in the UK. We can influence them. Symbolic gestures are needed right now, not acts of war. Wherever Putin travels in Europe now, he is greeted by rainbow flags.

 

Of course cruise ships must stop visiting St Petersburg. What's next: telling the Jews on a cruise ship that they have to stay on board because of the anti-Semitism on shore?? Where does it stop?

Edited September 23, 2013 by IslandExplorer

[whw]

I am going to step into this again. I think that changing the beliefs in Russia are going to take time. It is going to take much education and the will of the people to change these beliefs. Russia has been a "democracy" for a very short period of time. Some might argue that it is still not.

 

The United States has been a democracy for well over two hundred years. Gay rights are still not universal in that country. I know of Canadian married gay couples who still do not declare themselves as spouses when entering the US for fear of being hassled. Racism and homophobia are still much a part of the US. Should we be boycotting the US until rights are equal for everyone there.

[keithm]

I notice you didn't answer me, though. Since pro-gay people are being denied visas, since openly gay foreigners are being thrown in jail, next time you disembark in St. Petersburg, in what way would you propose making matters better?

 

I would petition the Imperial Court in St. Petersburg for the restitution of and the return to you and your family the titles you were denied almost 100 years ago and if, hopefully available, the return of the tiara the symbol of the Imperial Court with which you were associated. Now how's that for sarcasm?

Ouch! Double snap!

[keithm]

I am going to step into this again. I think that changing the beliefs in Russia are going to take time. It is going to take much education and the will of the people to change these beliefs. Russia has been a "democracy" for a very short period of time. Some might argue that it is still not.

 

The United States has been a democracy for well over two hundred years. Gay rights are still not universal in that country. I know of Canadian married gay couples who still do not declare themselves as spouses when entering the US for fear of being hassled. Racism and homophobia are still much a part of the US. Should we be boycotting the US until rights are equal for everyone there.

When we visit Canada & return home,I have no problem stating our relationship(Richard is Chinese)They can hassle us all they want,at the risk of a nasty lawsuit. Trust me there's lots of drooling lawyers waiting.

[keithm]

I'm sorry, but you're not just looking away, you're in a state of denial.

 

Putin has decided to victimize gays in his march to dictatorship, and that's OK with you.

March??I thought he crossed the finish line years ago.

[shepp]

I have not seen of anybody thrown in jail. I have a straight friend in Russia, and couldn't imagine dismissing Russian relatives. I will visit Russia without reservation. I doubt the claims of support for the homophobic law in Russia, but I have no doubt about the claims of homophobia in the Caribbean.

 

Shep, this is old news. We don't agree.

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/22/dutch-tourists-jailed-russia-gay_n_3635803.html

 

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/photos-from-russia-everyone-needs-to-see

 

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2013/08/05/russias-anti-gay-laws-in-line-with-publics-views-on-homosexuality/

 

I'm sorry if it's "old news" to you. I'm sorry you "don't agree" with well-documented facts. Have fun in Russia. Don't forget to wear your "I support LGBT rights" T-shirt proudly.

[shepp]

I notice you didn't answer me, though. Since pro-gay people are being denied visas, since openly gay foreigners are being thrown in jail, next time you disembark in St. Petersburg, in what way would you propose making matters better?

 

I would petition the Imperial Court in St. Petersburg for the restitution of and the return to you and your family the titles you were denied almost 100 years ago and if, hopefully available, the return of the tiara the symbol of the Imperial Court with which you were associated. Now how's that for sarcasm?

 

I was not being sarcastic. I was asking you a direct question...which I can't help but note you keep avoiding answering. I'll try again:

 

Given what's happening to gay and pro-gay visitors to Russia, the next time you disembark in St. Petersburg, what do envision doing that would improve the lot of queer Russians?

 

Seems - non-sarcastically - to be a rather simple question.

[shepp]

Of course cruise ships must stop visiting St Petersburg. What's next: telling the Jews on a cruise ship that they have to stay on board because of the anti-Semitism on shore?? Where does it stop?

 

And there are some ports that present a double-whammy to queer Jews like me.

 

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinion/article/the-new-russian-anti-semitism/480498.html

[whw]

And in how many states is your marriage recognized?

[whw]

When we visit Canada & return home,I have no problem stating our relationship(Richard is Chinese)They can hassle us all they want,at the risk of a nasty lawsuit. Trust me there's lots of drooling lawyers waiting.

 

And in how many states is your marriage recognized?

[Turtles06]

And in how many states is your marriage recognized?

 

Thank you. We here in America have made a lot of progress, and the situation here is not even remotely comparable to what is going on in Russia, but we still have a long way to go.